OK, Panamenians, get your passports updated, get all your paperwork sealed and notified. Things will get a bit harder.
Martinelli won the elections and first order of business, aside from removing Panama from the Parlahueso, sorry, Parlacen, is “revising the relations with Taiwan”.
We all know what that means.
Funny, he’s a “right wing conservative”. All hail the mighty buck. Sigh
The news yesterday said that relations with Panama are strong and stable. That’s a bad sign
Indeed. 
[quote]Martinelli won the elections and first order of business, aside from removing Panama from the Parlahueso, sorry, Parlacen, is “revising the relations with Taiwan”.
[/quote]
Have you got a link to that quote, Icon?
yeah…“right wing conservative”…we all know what that is code for in Central America…don’t we…eh?
Too bad he’s not a man of the people like Danny Ortega…eh?..
Banking is secure in Panama…at least for the time being. The economy is stable…at least for the time being. A good economy is a good thing for the gente…no?
And the elections we held w/out scandal…as far as has been reported so far.
He’s conservative and pro-business…Whats the problem?
Speak-up.
As far as Taiwan is concerned…early reports do not indicate a problemo:
MOFA confident about diplomatic ties with Panama
If you have some “inside scoop” then share it with us.
Added: Most recent:
Panama opts for conservative prez
[i]"PANAMA CITY – Multimillionaire supermarket chain owner Ricardo Martinelli won in Panama’s presidential election yesterday, bucking a trend of left-wing leadership wins in Latin America.
The pro-business conservative candidate was declared the clear victor over his rival, Balbina Herrera of the ruling centre-left Revolutionary Democratic Party, whose government has struggled to rein in crime and high prices.
Official results showed Martinelli with 61% of the votes, against 37% for Herrera."[/i]
Spanish OK?
http://horacero.com.pa/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=9211:hora-cero&catid=40:nacional
[quote]También consideró necesario ‘a largo plazo’ establecer relaciones diplomáticas con China, lo que supondría suspender las que mantiene Panamá con Taiwán.
From AFP
[quote]Otro de los cambios que haría Ricardo Martinelli es sacar a Panamá del Parlacén, y revisar las relaciones con China y Taiwan.
Al Parlacén lo tildó de “cueva de inmunidades y exoneraciones”, aunque precisó que está a favor de la integración centroamericana.
También es partidario de “buscar una posición intermedia” con Taiwan y “ver qué es lo que más le conviene al país”, porque, aseguró, no quiere “una relación de chequera, que es lo que ha habido aquí en Panamá” con la isla, considerada como una provincia rebelde de China.
[/quote]
http://www.elnuevodiario.com.ni/internacionales/46380
Of course, what he says as a candidate and what he does as a president might be different but he’s said it several times…
No inside scoop, no reading between the lines. In general, most businesspeople are making a big buck out of Chinese imports… no matter the consequences to the overall local economy.
EDIT:
He’s based his election platform in attacking the “government’s corruption” and that is also linked to Parlacen, which given immunity to officials that hide under its skirt… Don’t ask how Taiwan is mixed up in this mess…
Cheers Icon.
yeah…“right wing conservative”…we all know what that is code for in Central America…don’t we…eh?
Too bad he’s not a man of the people like Danny Ortega…eh?..
Banking is secure in Panama…at least for the time being. The economy is stable…at least for the time being. A good economy is a good thing for the gente…no?
And the elections we held w/out scandal…as far as has been reported so far.
He’s conservative and pro-business…Whats the problem?
Speak-up.
As far as Taiwan is concerned…early reports do not indicate a problemo:
MOFA confident about diplomatic ties with Panama
If you have some “inside scoop” then share it with us.
Added: Most recent:
Panama opts for conservative prez
[i]"PANAMA CITY – Multimillionaire supermarket chain owner Ricardo Martinelli won in Panama’s presidential election yesterday, bucking a trend of left-wing leadership wins in Latin America.
The pro-business conservative candidate was declared the clear victor over his rival, Balbina Herrera of the ruling centre-left Revolutionary Democratic Party, whose government has struggled to rein in crime and high prices.
Official results showed Martinelli with 61% of the votes, against 37% for Herrera."[/i][/quote]
What I thought about making the “right” connection was that most expect the leftist governments to be even cozier to China. However, it is the new conservative, pro free market, grab the world market, cannibalist capitalist hordes -AKA political elites in Central America- the ones that embrace China with passion… Gee, wonder why…
:eh:
[quote]What I thought about making the “right” connection was that most expect the leftist governments to be even cozier to China.[/quote]Uh…OK. hats usually the case.
So you advocate a closer alignment with…who?
Really, what do you think would be a wise move to build and sustain the Panamanian economy?
They ar in a very unique position geo-politically. And surprisingly, they have been pretty stable compared to others in their region. Especially considering who their neighbors are.
Panama has enjoyed a stable banking climate for the last 35 years or so. Thats a pretty good record.
And Chinese business has had a strong presence in Panama for a 150 years, if not longer.
Are you aware of who has been running the Panama Canal since the mid-80s? Both ends? China has had a hold on Panama since Jimmy Carter handed over the canal. Nothing new.
You want an anti-business, anti-free trade, anti-capitalist government? OK…can you show me anywhere where that has actually worked? Who has ever benefited for a regime like this?
Well, except for the central party elites…like Ortega…
Heck, even D’aubisson brought stability to El Sal.
I guess I am just having a problem in labeling this victory a negative for Panama so quickly.
Forgive me, but the title of this thread is “Bye bye Panama.”
Icon posted about Panama’s new leadership’s expression that they aren’t just looking to continue the checkbook diplomacy they currently have with Taiwan (which means, really, that they want nothing more than a bigger check–or that’s how I’d inturpret it, anyway), so will be looking to talk with both Taiwan and China.
In other words, this is not bad for Panama, but bad for Taiwan because diplomatic relations are for sale again and China will simply out bid Taiwan–and Taiwan will say bye bye to Panama, losing another political ally, and Panamanians in Taiwan will have a more difficult time with visas and such because of this.
Not negative for Panama, but for Panamanian peoples and their interests in Taiwan, and politically bad for Taiwan. Right?
Would it be wise for Taiwan to engage in openly trying to outbid the PRC for Panama political recognition?
It would undermine Taiwan’s current effort to normalize relationships with the PRC.
Lobbying the US, Taiwan’s major security guarantor, is probably the best investment ROC can use it’s coffers for.
Looking at the last presidency, it is obvious these checkbook diplomacy are too unregulated and easily abused by corrupt individuals. One of the cash mules dissappeared in Singapore for pete sakes.
Why does it have to outbid the PRC? I thought Ma had ended the diplomatic bidding wars by organising a “ceasefire” with China.
Oh, wait, China never agreed to that - it was all in Ma’s head. :roflmao:
[quote=“TainanCowboy”][quote]What I thought about making the “right” connection was that most expect the leftist governments to be even cozier to China.[/quote]Uh…OK. hats usually the case.
So you advocate a closer alignment with…who?
Really, what do you think would be a wise move to build and sustain the Panamanian economy?
They ar in a very unique position geo-politically. And surprisingly, they have been pretty stable compared to others in their region. Especially considering who their neighbors are.
Panama has enjoyed a stable banking climate for the last 35 years or so. Thats a pretty good record.
And Chinese business has had a strong presence in Panama for a 150 years, if not longer.
Are you aware of who has been running the Panama Canal since the mid-80s? Both ends? China has had a hold on Panama since Jimmy Carter handed over the canal. Nothing new.
You want an anti-business, anti-free trade, anti-capitalist government? OK…can you show me anywhere where that has actually worked? Who has ever benefited for a regime like this?
Well, except for the central party elites…like Ortega…
Heck, even D’aubisson brought stability to El Sal.
I guess I am just having a problem in labeling this victory a negative for Panama so quickly.[/quote]
Actually, the focus of my post was that one more diplomatic ally will, in high probability, leave us.
Moreover, Panama had, in recent years, pursued a policy we could call “pragmatic”, meaning it was engage in trade and communication closely with both China and Taiwan. Taiwan has major investments in the country, but China’s investments are also growing. Furthermore, up to 10% of Panamenians have some Chinese ancestry, with 6% of those being “100%” whiule the rest is mixed. Hence, Chinese affairs have a lot of inherence in local politics.
And regarding local politics, it has to do more with an exhausted political “class”, not aligned to anyone outside of their own strata. As to whatever issues of “stability” and “prosperity” they may trumpet outside of their shores, the truh is these fellows would be Worshippers of Amun-Ra if it would make them ffill their coffers faster so they could leave our shores quickly. They pay lip service to Western policies du jour, while they screw their countries so badly they actually make people like Ortega, Chaves, and the rest of those so-called leftists look attractive, even saviours of national dignity and autonomy. Otherwise, no sentient being would vote these gusy into power. Can you imagien how badly people get treated that they actually embreace those fellows? It is not a matter of choice, most iof teh time is basic survival. And please do not mention Mano Blanca here.
And what does Taiwan have to do in this soap opera? Well, when funds are diverted from health services and donations end up as political campaing funds, everyone loses. But then it cannot be any other way. It is the way things are.
Banking system? You know wherethose funds come from and the effect all those dollars have on the economy -no, it is not beneficial. Having overflowing whitened coffers only fuels inflation and general economic stagnation. And the poison just extends further inland.
The governments in Latin America are already anti-business (anyone who’s not their relative), anti-free trade (protect their companies first and foremost against national by ensuring the meatiest contracts), and yes, anti-capitalist. Because if there was free competition, they would already be out of business with such awful administrative skills, and without teh funds of you know where, they would be bankrupt. Funny how when they are bankrupt they always run for office.
Icon -
Pardon me, but I see no real substantive answer in your post. Lots of feelings" and wishes, but nothing as to political reality.
Again, who, In your opinion, should the Panamanians be aligning with that would be in the best economic/political interest for their country?
Also, Panamanian alliances with Taiwan do not rank very high on the scale. Both sides have historically shown that “pragmatic politics” is their prime concern. Taiwan with their very deep pockets and Panama with their economic interests. Its is a mistake to fault either on this maneuver. This is whats they do. And, BTW, this is professional politicians are paid to do - MAINTAIN THEIR HOME COUNTRIES INTERESTS AS THEIR PRIMARY CONCERN.
Say what?
Pardon me if I scoff at this communist/socialist tripe masquerading as a sensible response.
Mmm, who to align with? You mean Taiwan or China, right? That is the choice. Which one will benefit which Panamenians more? The ones in power? Or the majority of the population? That is another good question.
If I understand you correctly, you are telling me that the politicians in Panama would chose China to benefit their country. However, I would counter that this is not the way things are done in Latin America in general, as these choices are made by the sort of individuals who think about the benefits to their clique first and foremost. If they have to worship the Great Ewe of Amun-Ra to benefit themselves, they will. But you would say that is my “feeling”, and I would need some time to get data to support my claim, so, OK, this is not a good argument.
I think choosing between China and Taiwan is not a matter of who’s best for the country, as it is a matter of a conjunction of developments. It simply looks more attractive, but it may not be beneficial in the long run.
I agree with you in that the relationship with Taiwan was limited and handicapped from the start. Has the average Joe benefited from having Taiwan? A few limited investments, shipping and commerce mostly. Donations. Have they benefited from Chinese trade, investment? Not yet, but everyone says its good and promising. So most people believe it, in spite of competing directly in several sectors, which means great loses because the Chinese always produce cheaper. And getting barriers up will only cause political friction.
With the previous policy of taking the best from both sides, Panama was, to put in a way, in a position of relative power. By taking one side only, will it be foresaking any benefits or gaining from the alliance? Politically speaking, it was OK as it was. Economically, Chinese investments are already there.
I believe that economically speaking improving the middle of the road “game” might have been more beneficial, by buildfing a fence around Chinese investments and purchases, allowing Panamenians to be more selective, and not giving up control. But Chinese goods and money find a way, and as we saw let’s say with the poisoned toothpaste, this separation is no line of defense againt shoddy merchandise pandered by intermediaries.
For a supermarket chain, like Martinelli’s, having more Chinese suppliers means less costs, but those costs are not translated to the consumer. They haven’t in all the years they have been trading.
Now, 60% of the population voted Martinelli in. If you see his campaign, again, it was based on denouncing corruption and promising not to go down the same road. The feeling and perception in Central America is that Taiwan facilitates this corruption. So, logically, Taiwan has to go. However, without Taiwan, what barganing chip can the government offer?
How much of the help that Taiwan gives reaches the majority of the Panamenians? Not much. Help is constrained now especially because great efforts are being taken to make it as transparent and honest and clean as possible. Nevertheless, past actions of previous local governments have tainted the reputation of Taiwanese aid. Furthermore, the politicians, if they do not get their bite, are also not “motivated” to keep appereances.
Furthermore, the large Chinese Overseas popultion favors a conservative “China will be greater when unified and no one will hummiliate us anymore” thinking, and since they are a significant voting population, answering to their concerns is also a priority for any savvy government.
As to your comment about communism, I don’t get it. True, some effort has been undertaken against money laudering, but the poison of corruption and illegal trade still looms on. They do catch big loads from time to time, and seize the deposits at the banks, I concede, but it is a tough ongoing fight. And they do not win most of the time. We’ll talk about the inflation later.
Icon -
A quick thanks for your reply. I agree with you more than you might think.
I will respond further tomorrow.
psst - your background is showing TC.
Did you mean vee held
HG
Panama just announced switching recognition from Taiwan to China. Now the number of countries left on Taiwan’s side is 20 and mostly free loaders at Taiwanese tax payers’ expense.