[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]Yes, I found that quote rather reassuring myself.
Oh, and yes, I do read Chinese.
HG[/quote]
I would be reassured if they’d quit trying to save face and bury the bloody thing.
I completely do agree with you here that it would be nice if they fixed the damned thing. Not sure about the face-saving, I’m willing to reserve judgement on that, as I’m sure it will all come out eventually what was done right and wrong. For the life of me I can’t even begin to fathom the strain these people tackling this must be under. A nightmare with no end in sight.
HG
[quote=“bereal”][quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]Yes, I found that quote rather reassuring myself.
Oh, and yes, I do read Chinese.
HG[/quote]
I would be reassured if they’d quit trying to save face and bury the bloody thing.[/quote]
Wilton, Axminster or Dalton?
[quote=“yuli”]From the “clowns are us” department (it’s in the news):
“Edano apologizes over Kan’s reported remark”
www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/14_21.html
So the Diet (Japanese parliament) has taken up the issue of Prime Minister Kan having said something about parts of Fukushima becoming uninhabitable for 10, 20 years.
See: mainichi.jp/select/weathernews/n … 8000c.html (in Japanese)
(In case you wonder why this article is in the weather section: earthquake related information is sually handled by the weather office)
The Prime Minister still denies having made such a remark (a stupid denial to start with), the governor of Fukushima Prefecture is on record as having been angered by the remark (see related post from yesterday), and opposition politicians are accusing the Prime Minister of not properly minding his words and having caused the citizens worry.
I wonder whether i should feel embarrassed that I have to say this about my own country - as you can see for yourself, our politicians are skilled at making fools of themselves and wasting their (and our) time.
What next? Here is my proposal: Dear world, please take notice that in Japan it is considered inappropriate for the leadership to talk about uncomfortable issues in public, because that might cause concern in the population. Would you therefore please stop all media reports about the nuclear accident now, so that we in Japan can return to pretending that there is really nothing to be concerned about. Thank you for your kind understanding!
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[/quote]
To be fair, denial isn’t restricted to Japanese politicians. Why, even right here on our very own Forumosa we have a few proponents of the “my grandad smoked 280 Capstan Full Strength a day and was run over by a bus while running the London marathon at the age of…etc, etc…” line of argument, and it isn’t even their JOB to talk shite.
That is a strange title. Here’s the article:
ep.probeinternational.org/2011/0 … reenpeace/
The article contains an equally strange quote from Greenpeace: " . . . our measurements verified the authorities’ data. . . ."
Here’s the Greenpeace article from which the quote was taken: greenpeace.org/africa/en/New … tion-work/
Here is the quote in context, with the quoted phrase in boldface and italics:
[quote]The monitoring team found radiation levels high enough to require evacuation in several locations to the northwest of the crisis-stricken Fukushima/Daiichi nuclear plant, including Iitate village, 40km from the plant and 20km beyond the official evacuation zone. [See slideshow of radiation monitoring]
“While our measurements verified the authorities’s data, those same authorities are failing to protect people, or to provide them with adequate information”, said Greenpeace radiation safety expert Jan van de Putte, at today’s press briefing in Tokyo. “It is our moral obligation to report our findings now. Anyone spending just a few days in these contaminated areas would be exposed the maximum allowable annual dose of radiation, yet most people are still living in towns like Iitate.”[/quote]
In the Greenpeace article, the phrase in question contains a link to another Greenpeace article, entitled “Japanese Government: Greenpeace Data ‘Unreliable’[;] Greenpeace responds…,” located here: greenpeace.org/africa/en/New … nreliable/
In the article linked directly above, Greenpeace tells the Japanese government that the Greenpeace data that the government finds unreliable are in agreement with the Japanese government’s data:
[quote]Earlier today Japanese government spokesman, Mr. Nishimura, said that Greenpeace’s radiation data from Iidate village, 40km from the crisis-ridden Fukushima nuclear plant, “could not be considered reliable”, and that most people had already voluntarily left the town of Iitate.
These statements come after Greenpeace published findings of radiation levels of up to ten micro Sieverts per hour in Iitate village, 40km northwest of the crisis-stricken Fukushima/Daiichi nuclear plant. This villiage is 20km beyond the official evacuation zone, and the radiation levels found there are high enough to require evacuation.
The bizarre thing is that Greenpeace’s findings do not actually conflict with what the government had been reporting, so it’s strange that the government considers them ‘unreliable’.[/quote]
Now, to this:
胡說[/quote]
I don’t know enough about the science of it to know whether the quoted matter directly above is nonsense, but by the time I reached that piece of text the author had already got my eyes to go all squinty, on account of my having checked up on him about his initial assertion.
When I was a teenager, some of us used the slang verb “to shuck.” We also occasionally used the slang verb “to jive.” Someone got the idea of combining the two. Hence the expression “shucking and jiving.”
I don’t feel I need training in nuclear physics or nuclear engineering to be able to pick up on shucking and jiving. But I guess some folks are just never, ever going to stop it. The problem is, this ain’t about iPods or printers or VCD players, or what have you, and it ain’t about letting somebody hold fifty bucks till payday. This is stuff that can seriously affect a whole lot of people’s well-being for a long time. Speaking for myself only, if I pick up on enough shucking and jiving, I just set the source of it “on the pile with the others.” I’m right on point of doing that about these issues.
Who are they,a law firm?
Who are they,a law firm?[/quote]
My learned friend, that would be “Wilton, Axminster and Dalton”, now wouldn’t it? 
Who are they,a law firm?[/quote]
Google suggests they’re makers of carpets. You referred to “bury[ing] the bloody thing.” Reading Ducked’s response as charitably as I can: On my side of the pond, we speak of “sweeping (something) under the rug.” Maybe in other locales, they bury stuff under rugs.
I try to be open-minded about that sort of thing. In fact, these days I’ve gotten open-minded to the point where oftentimes, if one of my Chinese co-workers asks me a question about an odd-seeming turn of phrase or an odd-seeming use of a word, or something that looks grammatically questionable, I just tell them it’s probably British usage. No muss, no fuss.
One step forward, one step back:
“Highly Radioactive Water Increases Again at Fukushima N-Plant”
jen.jiji.com/jc/eng?g=eco&k=2011041500559
Background Information:
Atomic Energy Society of Japan specialists come to the same tentative (speculative) conclusion about reactors 1, 2, and
as the people in the forensic analysis thread of the “Physicforums” thread a while back:
yomiuri.co.jp/science/news/2 … T00938.htm (in Japanese)
jen.jiji.com/jc/eng?g=eco&k=2011041500407 (in English)
Physicsforums Forensic Analysis Thread URL:
physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=480200 [edit: fixed mistyped URL]
Most recent pictures there:
physicsforums.com/showthread … 0&page=239
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[/quote]
Well that explains it then,I think. :s
Who are they,a law firm?[/quote]
Google suggests they’re makers of carpets. You referred to “bury[ing] the bloody thing.” Reading Ducked’s response as charitably as I can: On my side of the pond, we speak of “sweeping (something) under the rug.” Maybe in other locales, they bury stuff under rugs.
I try to be open-minded about that sort of thing. In fact, these days I’ve gotten open-minded to the point where oftentimes, if one of my Chinese co-workers asks me a question about an odd-seeming turn of phrase or an odd-seeming use of a word, or something that looks grammatically questionable, I just tell them it’s probably British usage. No muss, no fuss.[/quote]
Correct. Re “something that looks grammatically questionable” (or mis-spelled) I do the same, only of course re American usage.
Or at least, American users. 
Well that explains it then,I think. :s[/quote]
Yeh, I think that’s mis-targetted. Yuli’ll maybe fix it sometime, but I suppose this isn’t actually his full-time job.
Well that explains it then,I think. :s[/quote]
Yeh, I think that’s mis-targetted. Yuli’ll maybe fix it sometime[/quote]
physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=480200 (the final zero got cut off in my copy-paste operation… sorry)
Right - it’s not my job at all.
But i have a rather irregular schedule and do a lot of my work at home (by computer and telephone), so i often have a few minutes here or there…
Somewhat late, but a followup on the above: i haven’t been able to find any information about that station, except reports where it is being mentioned by “name”. Probably more information might be found in some university engineering department library. Here is some information about how those stations work:
ctbto.org/fileadmin/content/ … _3/p14.pdf
And again, a comment about those pictures taken by the unmanned aircraft (drone):
physicsforums.com/showpost.p … count=3893
Once more: “Groundwater radiation level at nuke plant rises”
english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/04/85532.html
“Fukushima seawater radioactivity rises inside containment fence”
english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/04/85935.html
Now, that in itself seems obvious: if you prevent radioactive water from freely flowing into the sea where it wold be diluted, the concentration in the “trap” would be higher.
These cooling systems are meant do what the damaged built in cooling systems can’t do any more… and, once those work, the crude cooling effected by pouring water on the outsides of the reactors can be stopped and the flow of radioactive water into the groundwater and the sea would stop and it should then be possible to pump the basements of the reactors dry and get to doing some work there that is currently not safe to do.
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[/quote]
[quote=“yuli”]Meanwhile, the utility is considering installing circulating water cooling systems for reactors and spent fuel storage pools outside the reactor buildings
These cooling systems are meant do what the damaged built in cooling systems can’t do any more… and, once those work, the crude cooling effected by pouring water on the outsides of the reactors can be stopped and the flow of radioactive water into the groundwater and the sea would stop and it should then be possible to pump the basements of the reactors dry and get to doing some work there that is currently not safe to do.[/quote]
You sure “pouring water on the outsides of the reactors” is all they’re doing? Seems unlikely that’d be effective.
I’d semi-assumed they were pumping into the containment vessels / storage pools and then letting it boil-off and/or run into the sea. (total loss or open circuit cooling, IOW).
Maybe they were doing that with sea-water when things were perhaps even more desperate, but the temperature has dropped to the point where they no longer have to.
Closed circuit cooling should reduce radiation escape compared to total loss or open circuit, but it’ll only eliminate it if there aren’t any leaks, and if all the fuel rods are covered. Those conditions seem unlikely to apply.
Gosh, I think I’m going to have to pop over and check this out when I visit Japan for Fuji Rock. Got a couple of days spare either end.
[quote]
‘We feel like dancing naked’: hula girls aim to save tourism
They pulled on their grass skirts to help save their mining town once before, now Japan’s “hula girls” plan to save it again, this time from becoming a nuclear ghost town.
A spa resort on the cusp of the troubled Fukushima nuclear plant exclusion zone might be a difficult sell to tourists but a group of sexy Hawaiian style dancers plan to do just that.
“People now associate Fukushima with people exposed to radiation,” said dancer Ayumi Sudo. "I want to get rid of that image.
“We have felt like dancing naked to show that we are not contaminated.”
Sudo and her hula girls twirled their naked waists outside a Tokyo train station this week to promote safe farm produce from their Pacific Coast hometown of Iwaki, in Fukushima prefecture.
The seaside getaway is located just 50 kilometres south of the Fukushima plant, which has leaked radiation into the air, ground and sea since it was hit by a powerful quake and giant tsunami on March 11. . . more at the link . . . [/quote]
Needless to say, people bought up the Fukushima fresh produce. What, me worry?
This desire to “prove” they aren’t toxic sludge on legs reminded me very much of the heart-wrenching book and movie called Black Rain. No, nothing to do with that piece of shit starring Michael Douglas (I think), rather: Black Rain (黒い雨, Kuroi Ame), a novel by Japanese author Ibuse Masuji.
Apparently there has been considerable discrimination against people with Fukushima plates and ID cards in Japan since this event. In one sort of funny if it wasn’t true tale, workers at a petrol station, obviously mimicking the workers at the stricken plant, took seconds long shifts filling a car with Fukushima plates with petrol to “reduce their exposure.”
Feeding fear, eh? Nice work if you can get it, I suppose. Certainly good for advertising.
HG
[quote=“Ducked”]You sure “pouring water on the outsides of the reactors” is all they’re doing? Seems unlikely that’d be effective.
I’d semi-assumed they were pumping into the containment vessels / storage pools and then letting it boil-off and/or run into the sea. (total loss or open circuit cooling, IOW).[/quote]
Right: the reactors are inside the containment vessels, so the water reaches the outsides of the reactors that way. In addition they had been pumping water into the reactors, as well, and i don’t know whether they are still doing any of that.
I am actually not sure whether they have stopped all use of water now or just drastically reduced the amount they are using.
In any case, concerning the math involved here: the earlier they have stopped, the higher the initially pumped-in amounts of water would have to have been to reach a total of 60 million liters of waste water. So far, we get an average of about 2000 tons (2000 cubic meters or 2 million liters per day, calculated over one month) - that sure is already an enormous amount of water.
You are, of course, right about that - what the news is reporting (information they have received from TEPCO) is that they TEPCO is trying. 
That is the same kind of panicky thinking like that which led thousands of tourists from Taiwan to cancel their trips to the islands of Okinawa: many people have no realistic understanding of radiation and fallout and react simply from a gut level of fear. And in Japan, completely opposite to what happened in other countries, this fear has not been stoked by sensationalist reporting but by secrecy and beating around the bush on part of industry and government. And now there are, of course quite predictably, politicians who are trying to make hay out of the prime minister having been the bringer of uncomfortable news. You can count on it that as long as we maintain the kind of secretive political-economic system we have now we won’t be seeing a better educated public.
Are you suggesting there is some mastermind behind the reaction of the service station staff? Do you see anybody there profiting from the fear?
More from TEPCO:
“TEPCO aims to achieve ‘cold shutdown’ for reactors in 6-9 months”
english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/04/86010.html
[quote]Tokyo Electric Power Co. said Sunday that it aims to bring the damaged reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant to a stable condition known as a ‘‘cold shutdown’’ in about six to nine months, while restoring stable cooling to the reactors and spent fuel pools in about three months. […]
The utility, known as TEPCO, also said it needs three months to achieve ‘‘steady reduction’’ in radiation, and an additional three to six months to control radioactive emissions and curb radiation substantially.[/quote]
And a careful summary (a summary that is conservatively based on educated assessments) of what might have happened with the 4 reactors in the few days after the earthquake:
physicsforums.com/showpost.p … count=3962
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[/quote]