You won’t buy an automobile if that is too expensive and other options make more sense. The OP was just stating his own position, he wasn’t writing a policy for the city or national govt to follow.
The core of his argument is correct i.e. There are too many of them, they run on outdated technology and there are other options available that could be implemented. The links I have posted show the serious health problems incurred from exhaust fumes and soot and they also show that scooters are among the dirtiest of all vehicles.
LOL, have you seen the way people drive here?!? Taipei land of the 10,000 mico-fukushimas.[/quote]
I think your mean Nagasaki and Hiroshimas. Sure would be fun when accidents occur and you just have a small nuclear reaction that instantly vaporizes those around you. Sounds like fun.
LOL, have you seen the way people drive here?!? Taipei land of the 10,000 mico-fukushimas.[/quote]
I think your mean Nagasaki and Hiroshimas. Sure would be fun when accidents occur and you just have a small nuclear reaction that instantly vaporizes those around you. Sounds like fun.[/quote]
That’s pretty similar to what’s happening right now with burning gasoline all over the place.
Instead burning it somewhere central and recharging batteries, everyone has his own private power plant on board.
So you don’t have to wait for your little Hiroshima. You already have it just down the stairs.
Yes and I let it run and run and run and run. It’s been running for 12 years. 2 stroke. Have no idea what fuel consumption it gets just as long as it gets me from from one place to another. Yes I service it regularly and it rockets along.
Where does the electricity come from, then? Should we have more coal power plants or nuclear ones?[/quote]
From a battery 
Hey don’t shoot me I’m the messenger! Seriously though, In terms of numbers of scooters the pollution from them is pretty bad. As I’ve stated before I don’t have an alternative, I just agree with the OP’s POV and it would be nice to cut pollution levels on this wonderful island.[/quote]
And I am suggesting that it might not cut pollution levels at all, just change the source. Taiwan already has issues with power generation. Imagine if, suddenly, millions of battery-powered vehicles needed juice. Solar panels aren’t going to cut it. So, I ask again: Do we build more coal-fired power plants or a couple more nuclear ones?[/quote]
IMO nothing will change by changing the source. If they build more nuclear plants, they will have activists complaining. If they build wind turbines, it will cost a fortune and have side effects on peoples health. Solar tech isn’t quite there yet and costly, and coal is polluting.
To be honest, I think there is no easy solution to this, but government influence is not the road we need to head down.
[quote=“headhonchoII”]You won’t buy an automobile if that is too expensive and other options make more sense. [/quote] Let’s not rewind that particular argument shall we HH? I’ve made my points, you’ve made yours. I’ve also pointed out that the possibility that a car ownership will increase is but one example of possible reactions. I never even said that automobile substitution would be a show stopper.
Yes, and others are stating their position, not writing policy for any government. So, what’s the problem?
[quote] The core of his argument is correct i.e. There are too many of them [/quote] It’s entirely possible that the number of scooters is ideal for Taiwan as it exist today. Besides making such a statement opens the question of what is the magic number of scooters?
You might be right there might be too many. But, you haven’t given any basis for this past, it’s your opinion. If you want to make this argument, it behooves you to ask some or be able to answer some basic questions. For example,
How many scooters are being operated?
What is the average age of?
What is the impact on air quality that can be tied directly to scooter use in Taiwan?
What quantifiable benifits to air quality can we expect as a result of introducing any policy on scooters?
Are there a certain type(s) of scooter that are having a disprortoionate effect on air quality?
Are there currently regulations in place?
Are there regulations that could be enacted or enforced that would improve air quality impact?
Who are the people who rely on on scooter as a mean of primary transport?
Do they currently have REASONABLE alternatives to scooters?
Can the current public transit system accomodate these people?
How well can the existing roadways handle any possible increase in automobile volumes?
Yeah, let’s leave it to private know how and private enterprise: look where they’ve got us so far.
And Taiwanese private enterprise is even better!
Where does the electricity come from, then? Should we have more coal power plants or nuclear ones?[/quote]
From a battery
Hey don’t shoot me I’m the messenger! Seriously though, In terms of numbers of scooters the pollution from them is pretty bad. As I’ve stated before I don’t have an alternative, I just agree with the OP’s POV and it would be nice to cut pollution levels on this wonderful island.[/quote]
And I am suggesting that it might not cut pollution levels at all, just change the source. Taiwan already has issues with power generation. Imagine if, suddenly, millions of battery-powered vehicles needed juice. Solar panels aren’t going to cut it. So, I ask again: Do we build more coal-fired power plants or a couple more nuclear ones?[/quote]
IMO nothing will change by changing the source. If they build more nuclear plants, they will have activists complaining. If they build wind turbines, it will cost a fortune and have side effects on peoples health. Solar tech isn’t quite there yet and costly, and coal is polluting.
To be honest, I think there is no easy solution to this, but government influence is not the road we need to head down.[/quote]
Oh I think there is. It’s called progress. Sooner or later these problems will get solved. Just not as fast as some would like. Sadly it’s not as easy and simply looking at a place like Japan and transferring Japanese policies here. Ironically we fought a war to prevent that. 
[quote=“headhonchoII”][quote=“dan2006”]Again, the first step before considering a ban, restrictions, or tolls on scooters is to first ensure that there is a reasonable system in place to efficiently move people. Taiwan still does not have a system that could bear that increased load on it.
First build the infrastructure and then the people will move to it if its efficient rather than using the stick method to enforce it.
Personally I think all this talk about scooter/vehicle pollution is overdone as it is the business that are the biggest polluters, and vehicle pollution is just a sidebar to distract the attention away from the real problem.[/quote]
Dan Taipei is soon to have an excellent and extensive MRT system along with multiple bus routes, cheap and economic train system and good expressways for car drivers. It’s also small and compact and now has good pavements pretty much everywhere. I really don’t see the issue to be honest. Can anything match up the cheapness and convenience of petrol scooters? Perhaps not. But is the trade-off worth it is the question people need to ask. For everything in life there is a trade-off. To get one thing you need to give on another. People are people everywhere and they respond to both push and pull factors, all good managers know this.
Want more money? Generally you’ll have to work harder and in a more stressful job. Want to enjoy more time with the kids? You might need to change that job or give it up entirely. Want to eat better food, got to pay that bit extra for the fresh and organic stuff. Trade-off!
MM has already mentioned that vehicle pollution is the major portion of air pollution in Taipei City and a large propotion in other cities.
After all the hyperbole it’s time for people to give some links to keep the Gmans of this world happy 
.
taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/ … 2003359365
[b][i]Levels of particle matter below 2.5 micrometers in diameter – or PM2.5 – and carcinogenic polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) were highest in the morning and scooter riders stuck in traffic were the most exposed.
“A major source of PM2.5 is engine exhaust,” said Lung Shih-chun (龍世俊), associate research fellow at Academia Sinica’s Center for Environmental Changes.
“The closer you get to traffic, the higher the concentration of fine particular matter and harmful hydrocarbon compounds,” Lung said.
The samplings were taken in 2004 and 2005 between two MRT stations in Taipei.
Lung cited the “Six Cities” study conducted in 1993, which showed a strong correlation between exposure to PM2.5 and cardiovascular and lung-related deaths.
“Fine particulate matters are not filtered out by our body but are breathed deep into the lungs,” she said.
The study showed that on average scooter drivers were exposed to PM2.5 concentrations of 161 micrograms per cubic meter during their daily commute, substantially more than the 90 micrograms per cubic meter for car drivers and 105 micrograms per cubic meter for people riding on the MRT.
“We could see the concentrations spike at traffic lights, with scooter riders sitting behind the idling engines of the vehicles in front of them,” she said.
Scooter riders were also most vulnerable to PAHs, another component of engine exhaust and a highly potent carcinogen.[/i][/b][/quote]
Hi HH.
I don’t disagree that scooters are a pollution problem. However I would disagree somewhat with the idea that the transit system there is good. It is 1000 times better than the Toronto Subway system no doubt, but it still takes quite a while to navigate from one part of Taipei to the other, especially when you have to change lines. And the lineups already to get on the train is already high, so I can’t see how it would possibly manage with all the scooter drivers converging on the MRT. Most subway systems are already maxed out around the world and can’t handle much more increase.
Another issue is the buses. While there are many buses, to get on the one you need may require a wait of up to 45 minutes. This doesn’t make it convenient so therefore most people will naturally gravitate toward scooters.
[quote=“urodacus”]Yeah, let’s leave it to private know how and private enterprise: look where they’ve got us so far.
And Taiwanese private enterprise is even better![/quote]
So you want to leave it to the government? The taiwanese government? :loco: :roflmao:
Sure go ahead leave it to public sector wonks and central planners. See where it’s gotten them when it has been so. Although to see where it’s gotten them, you are going to need to dig up a few graves or root through the dustbin of history.
Dan I know Taipei very well, previously a lot of areas weren’t well served by public transport but that is on the brink of changing now with a huge number of new stations just added and new lines opening up in areas such as San CHONG, xin Zhuang, lu Zhou, lin kou, San Yi. Circular lines and line changes will open up the city even more and help to reduce overloading at the main station. Then you’ve got improved rail services out to shijr and keelung along with good integration with the airports and high speed rail stations. Taipei’s bus network is much better than most cities and on major routes buses are very frequent. Really Taipei has changed a lot and will continue to get more convenient, the other cities in Taiwan are unfortunately far behind. Taichung doesn’t even have a decent bus service let along an MRT line
Now scooter parking is largely free, just charging for parking and stopping parking on the pavements would make a big difference in choice. Cars pay for parking, why not scooters? It all depends on what people want their city to be like.
Good point. One quick question about Taipei. Who actually owns the area in front of the buildings? Is that public or private space?
The road itself is publically owned as is the outer pavement as exists in much of Taipei City now. I’m not sure about the inner covered walkway but obviously the city government has the power for the final say i.e. if they want to enforce public access and flat pavements they have the power to do that and indeed that is what has been happening over the last few years.
If you weren’t here a few years ago you wouldn’t notice the huge difference in Taipei over that time, to get an idea of the situation before just go to other smaller cities/towns or to New Taipei City. Central planning and government enforcement is the only way to fix the issue in a chaotic selfish society like Taiwan.
[quote=“headhonchoII”]Dan I know Taipei very well, previously a lot of areas weren’t well served by public transport but that is on the brink of changing now with a huge number of new stations just added and new lines opening up in areas such as Sanchong, xin Zhuang, lu Zhou, lin kou, San Yi. Circular lines and line changes will open up the city even more and help to reduce overloading at the main station. Then you’ve got improved rail services out to Xizhi and Keelung (Jilong) along with good integration with the airports and high speed rail stations. Taipei’s bus network is much better than most cities and on major routes buses are very frequent. Really Taipei has changed a lot and will continue to get more convenient, the other cities in Taiwan are unfortunately far behind. Taichung doesn’t even have a decent bus service let along an MRT line
[color=#0000BF]Now scooter parking is largely free, just charging for parking and stopping parking on the pavements would make a big difference in choice. Cars pay for parking, why not scooters? It all depends on what people want their city to be like.[/color][/quote]
That’s a good idea and while they are putting up charging meters, those could incorporate a charging plug for E-scooters as well. This way the financing for the charging stations could be solved at the same time.
Sure but now the city government has to spend billions of NT$ lay around thousands of kilometers of power cabling for that. Can’t wait till somebody decides to recharge in the middle of a rain squall and gets electrocuted to death.
Sure but now the city government has to spend billions of NT$ lay around thousands of kilometers of power cabling for that. Can’t wait till somebody decides to recharge in the middle of a rain squall and gets electrocuted to death.[/quote]
Are you just making up arguments to add another post or are you serious?
There is no place in the whole city more than ten meters away from the next power-line.
E-bikes and scooters are running on no more than 60V. Above that it could stop your heart.
Most e-scooters run on either 24 or 36V.
There are 100 000 and more people dying from cardiovascular diseases and cancer each year.
So if ever someone managed to be killed by 36V during a heavy rain, people like you surely would have their news.
I only say, Tesla vs. Edison!
[quote=“headhonchoII”]The road itself is publically owned as is the outer pavement as exists in much of Taipei City now. I’m not sure about the inner covered walkway but obviously the city government has the power for the final say i.e. if they want to enforce public access and flat pavements they have the power to do that and indeed that is what has been happening over the last few years.
If you weren’t here a few years ago you wouldn’t notice the huge difference in Taipei over that time, to get an idea of the situation before just go to other smaller cities/towns or to New Taipei City. Central planning and government enforcement is the only way to fix the issue in a chaotic selfish society like Taiwan.[/quote]
The covered walkways are privately owned but the owners have a legal obligation not to impede access.
If the local governments are incapable of doing anything to improve the situation, the central government should step in and force them to do so. Does Taiwan have any civil society groups campaigning on this kind of issue? How are disabled people supposed to get around? How many people are killed every year because they are forced onto the road as pavements and arcades are blocked?
And don’t forget all the scooter shops, small businesses and scooter mechanics that depend on scooter commuters for their daily bread, to educate their kids etc etc. Much like the buxiban system, with all that’s wrong with it, it’s still a massive industry that keeps 100s of thousands employed, families fed, waiguos in booze and kids educated (albeit, probably not at a buxiban).
[quote]Hi HH.
I don’t disagree that scooters are a pollution problem. However I would disagree somewhat with the idea that the transit system there is good. It is 1000 times better than the Toronto Subway system no doubt, but it still takes quite a while to navigate from one part of Taipei to the other, especially when you have to change lines. And the lineups already to get on the train is already high, so I can’t see how it would possibly manage with all the scooter drivers converging on the MRT. Most subway systems are already maxed out around the world and can’t handle much more increase.
Another issue is the buses. While there are many buses, to get on the one you need may require a wait of up to 45 minutes. This doesn’t make it convenient so therefore most people will naturally gravitate toward scooters.[/quote]
The MRT sytem is not finished yet. The circle section has not been completed and will require another ten years for completion. For example the Nan Tze Bridge to Tu Chen section has only just begun.
So wait ten years because the circle line isn’t finished, not very smart I would say.