If you accept that I or anyone driving less is making a sacrifice then the issue is whether the sacrifice is worth it. Better air, safer streets, a pleasant urban and rural environment on par with other countries. This would do wonders for Taiwan’s ability to attract more tourists, and create genuine retirement villages for overseas retirees.
Better air would mean fewer cases of asthma (already a major problem in Taipei especially), so less hospital visits, greater savings on medical. With sidewalks not cluttered with scooters people could walk more and would walk more. I saw that in Muzha when they built the paths along the dikes. People started using that to walk and would then cut in to get to the point on the main street rather than walk along the unpleasant main street.
Fewer scooters would mean a slower pace of life, a less noisy environment. It would mean oil wasn’t constantly washing down drains into the rivers untreated.
The simple fact is Taiwan is a small place with a lot of people, and thus some special environmental challenges. Which means a lot of reasonable restrictions can be put in place. Preventing scooters from crowded urban areas seems pretty reasonable. As does levying tolls on cars going into downtown areas. As does requiring all taxis use natural gas, and buses be the same or electric.
You mentioned ghost paper burning. What’s your argument for banning your neighbor from burning some paper when you are releasing foul exhaust to go to the gym everyday?
I think the argument is you can’t do grocery shopping without a car/scooter. Unless you are very strong and got a lot of free time. Electric cars and scooters sounds nice. I found the MRT expensive and inconviniant compared to scooter/taxis. Bus is a bit better but I’d prefer they ban those fat noisy buses too or at least make them run on anything different then petrol
I think that people should be able to decide for themselves whether they want to make that sacrifice. I think there needs to be better alternative or incentives for people. Encouraging electric scooters or making better accodations for them (charging) might be a positive step. Having a small group of people imposing that sacrifice on people (outright banning) isn’t a good idea and in some cases counter productive. Why does Taiwan need to attract even more people here?? It’s not like there’s a shortage. Personally even if you did clean the air I’d still go with Vancouver Island over Taiwan.
I don’t disagree, all I’m saying is that for me giving up motorized transport is not an option. Banning scooter means I buy a car and the car I buy will emit much more polution than my scooter.
Not everyone desires a slower pace of life. Less noisy? I’m not so sure about that (I think it would be marginal) scooter noise is pretty local. The oil issue is a puzzle to me. As far as I know my scooter doesn’t leak any oil.
Agreed.
[quote] Which means a lot of reasonable restrictions can be put in place. [/quote] Reasonable is a relative term. What’s a reasonable cost to one may not be to another.
[quote] Preventing scooters from crowded urban areas seems pretty reasonable. [/quote] Well, first define ‘crowded urban areas’ if you mean greater Taipei then I disagree, the scooter is at it’s core a means of urban transport.
[quote] As does levying tolls on cars going into downtown areas. As does requiring all taxis use natural gas, and buses be the same or electric. [/quote] Levy’s would be fine for core areas as there is adequate alternatives. Natural gas taxi and buses might be an option, is it economic?
My scooter burns fuel in a relative efficient manner. The low temperature in complete combustion of paper is far dirtier. That trip to the gym and back results is 6 minutes of running a day. I’d be willing to bet that my neighbor’s fire releases more particulate matter into the local atmosphere than 6 months of scooter trips to the gym. Try for yourself, stand behind my one year old scooter and then go stand 10 meters down wind of my neighbour ghost money / small rubish fire and tell me which one makes your eyes burn.
You’re absolutely correct about the Neihu Costco. Public transportation to that area, which has many great warehouse stores, sucks balls. You pretty much need your own motorized transport to get there.[/quote]
I’ve done it by MRT and bus many times. Or just a taxi to the MRT. [/quote]
If you’re willing to spend 3-4 times as long on a bus crammed with your purchases then that’s your choice. We aren’t talking about what is possible, it is physically possible to make the whole trip by foot. The point is I don’t think you or anybody like you has the right to tell me how I should go about my business or what level of personal inconvenience I should endure (within reasonable limits of course). That’s my choice. 4 times longer for you is ok, for me it’s not acceptable. Maybe my time is more valuable to me than yours is to you.
As for the taxi Idea, so you think that replacing the scooter ride to Costco and back (100 cc engine) is somehow going to release less pollutants if replaced by a TAXI ride ( 1.8 L displacement let’s assume )??? Now who’s in an alternate reality.
No I go to Costco about once a week but, as I mentioned I go to my gym daily (same issue). The Neihu Costco was merely one example of a place where personalized motor transport is a must for me so let’s not get fixated on Costco.
You say “no one said we wouldn’t need some personal vehicle some of the time” Actually that’s pretty much what you’ve been saying. I’ve told you point blank that banning scooters would force me to buy a car. And, you’ve questioned that.[/quote]
Your freedom of choice should end where the rights of others to live a healthy life is sabotaged by the choices you have made.
Does your scooter have a catalyst? I guess not. Does it move your little weight more than 150km on a liter of gas?
Do you really think the new scooters are high tech?
The title says that I want these scooters off the streets. These! I might can tolerate those that do not exist yet.
When a industry can sell more than 20 000 000 scooters they should be able to survive very tough regulations. And in my opinion, it’s time to demand tougher regulations.
And arguments like- I need my scooter to go somewhere nice. It’s all stinky and ugly here so I need my scooter to get out of here and enjoy some nature. Nonsense!
We all could have nice surrounding right where we live.
On an electric tandem bicycle? But how would I be able to see where I’m going? What with the paper bag to hide my face and all?
Plus, there just 'aint any public transport running out to my place by the time I get off work. Its car or taxi. And if you think I’m about to wait for an MRT and then sit there and schlep into a taxi to not get home until 12:30 at night, you’ve got another think coming. Sorry, but I’ll HAPPILY and JOYOUSLY increase my carbon footprint with nary a care in the world if it gets me home by 11:30. That hour makes ALL the difference when its late at night.[/quote]
Well said MM, I have not seen a reasonable argument in support of the sheer number of scootr here or why they couldn’t be replaced by better modes of transport. I’m surprised many foreigners who were born in places with better environments are so narrow minded.
When I was a kid the city I lived in had terrible smog in the winter due to the burning of dirty cheap coal. Old people died in their thousands and young people has high rates of asthma and other lung diseases. The air tasted bad and you couldn’t see very far more than a few meters ahead on the worst days. The environment minister decided to ban the dirty coal and only allow cleaner burning coal or gas to be used for home heating. The result was dramatic and by the next year you could hardly find a soul who wanted to go back to the old free for all way of heating your home. That my friends is called progress.
Gman your ideas mean progress at the lowest common denominator, a piss poor way to run any society.
Eh, Taiwan has shops and supermarkets everywhere, this is no argument at all. Convenience stores are the highest density in the world and supermarkets maybe not far behind.
I think that people should be able to decide for themselves whether they want to make that sacrifice. I think there needs to be better alternative or incentives for people. Encouraging electric scooters or making better accodations for them (charging) might be a positive step. Having a small group of people imposing that sacrifice on people (outright banning) isn’t a good idea and in some cases counter productive. Why does Taiwan need to attract even more people here?? It’s not like there’s a shortage. Personally even if you did clean the air I’d still go with Vancouver Island over Taiwan.
I don’t disagree, all I’m saying is that for me giving up motorized transport is not an option. Banning scooter means I buy a car and the car I buy will emit much more polution than my scooter.
Not everyone desires a slower pace of life. Less noisy? I’m not so sure about that (I think it would be marginal) scooter noise is pretty local. The oil issue is a puzzle to me. As far as I know my scooter doesn’t leak any oil.
Agreed.
[quote] Which means a lot of reasonable restrictions can be put in place. [/quote] Reasonable is a relative term. What’s a reasonable cost to one may not be to another.
[quote] Preventing scooters from crowded urban areas seems pretty reasonable. [/quote] Well, first define ‘crowded urban areas’ if you mean greater Taipei then I disagree, the scooter is at it’s core a means of urban transport.
[quote] As does levying tolls on cars going into downtown areas. As does requiring all taxis use natural gas, and buses be the same or electric. [/quote] Levy’s would be fine for core areas as there is adequate alternatives. Natural gas taxi and buses might be an option, is it economic?
My scooter burns fuel in a relative efficient manner. The low temperature in complete combustion of paper is far dirtier. That trip to the gym and back results is 6 minutes of running a day. I’d be willing to bet that my neighbor’s fire releases more particulate matter into the local atmosphere than 6 months of scooter trips to the gym. Try for yourself, stand behind my one year old scooter and then go stand 10 meters down wind of my neighbour ghost money / small rubish fire and tell me which one makes your eyes burn.[/quote]
I’m no expert but scooters volume of noxious gas production would be much higher due to usage and sheer number of scooters. Exhaust from engines has two types, larger soot type particles and smaller particles that are equally if not more dangerous as they can settle in the finest branch points of your lungs and enter your bloodstream.
They are linked with lung disease, heart disease and cancer. This is not scaremongering, these are facts.
As for noise, it is a medical fact that noise stresses the body.
MM mentioned the oil which I believe he means is engine oil which when changed is often poured down the drain instead of disposed of properly. Again it’s the sheer number of scooters which causes major environmental knock-on effects.
Your freedom of choice should end where the rights of others to live a healthy life is sabotaged by the choices you have made. [/quote]
No, but you need to demonstrate to me that taking away my choice of personal transport will achieve such and ends before I’d agree with such a restriction. As I’ll no doubt end up having to repeat, my personal level of emissions will increase if scooters are banned in Taipei. Also trying to characterise my choosing to use a scooter as the willfull sabotage of the rights of others to live a healthy life is extremist.
I actually don’t know if my scooter has a catalyst so your guess is as good as mine. It’s a year old and burns fairly cleanly. 150 km/l, well I guess I know what ‘reasonable’ means to some people :loco:
Compared to 10 years ago, yes
Well, define ‘these’. I’m only talking about a blanket ban.
Very tough sure, but there are technological and economic limits. Manditory catalytical coverters might be a good idea.
Don’t remember making that argument.
Again, I’m not sure about that. MM stated that 98% of the air pollution is from vehicle emissions. This isn’t a surprise before I accept scooters must be banned I’d want to know what percentage of a reduction a scooter ban would achieve? How much of the air pollutant level is due to geography for exampl? My home city of Vancouver/Richmond has relatively clean air due to air currents. Nearby and downwind Abbotsfords air quality is terrible. How many people like myself, would end up replacing their scooter with an automobile? To what degree would that mitigate any benifit?
Nonsense, I only oppose this talk of an outright ban. And even at that, if it could be absolutly shown that an outright ban would achieve a big reduction in local air pollution I’d junk the scooter.
I don’t know how I can be any clearer on this. At this point in my life, with a scooter, my personal carbon foot print or environmental impact is probably at its lowest level, ever in my life time If scooters are banned in Taipei my personal impact on the environment will increase not decrease.
I’m all for looking at all options including a ban if needed but, I’m not going to agree to going straight to a ban without any consideration or effort toward alternatives.
[quote=“headhonchoII”]
I’m no expert but scooters volume of noxious gas production would be much higher due to usage and sheer number of scooters. Exhaust from engines has two types, larger soot type particles and smaller particles that are equally if not more dangerous as they can settle in the finest branch points of your lungs and enter your bloodstream. They are linked with lung disease, heart disease and cancer. This is not scaremongering, these are facts. [/quote]
My comment was only in the context of my individaul scooter use versus my neighbor’s weekly offerings. The effects of exhaust from engines is not in dispute. What I question is how much of those soot particles result from new scooters and how much of a blaket ban on scooter would achieve compared to other alternatives.
No question but scooter noise is pretty local, I live a block removed and with in view of a major street and I don’t notice the scooter noise. Certainly not compared to other trafic noises including the beeping from the buses.
Isn’t that a direct non compliance with existing laws? Doesn’t that argue for the enforcing of the existing rules rather than piling on additional rules?
I think the crux of the argument against the original post is that it’s just damn stupid to call for the ban of scooters, without first calling for the ban of cars.
If you want less traffic, less pollution and safer roads, ban cars not scooters. At least do the cars first.
It’s like calling for hunting crossbows to be banned, but leaving semiautomatics.
It’s not completely stupid because cars are more necessary than scooters e.g business/families/safety/long distance trips/ need to carry heavy loads and cars already have much stricter conditions applied to their use. Just look at Japan to get the idea. And before people say we don’t want Taiwan to be Japan fine but then happily live in a developing country for you and your family for decades more, I’ve been to Japan many times and their smaller cities are FAR more livable than Taiwan , this year I spent a week in Kyoto and myself and my family loved the clean air, great footpaths and bikepaths everywhere, all the students and housewives cycle as do a lot of office workers. Yes they have good buses and a MRT line but there’s no reason Taiwan cannot follow this path too. It was very relaxing compared to the constant chaos and noise of Taiwan’s streets.
imagine if these were all cars. btw, this is sanchong anytime 6AM-11PM at any intersection. hopefully the new mrt will cut it down a little…BUT! the mrt or busses don’t actually connect sanchong to other parts in sanchong…only across the bridges to taipei city.
Japan’s cities have a LOT more MRT stations than here in Taipei, plus of course, have you ever been on a Japanese subway in rush hour? It’s horrible! I’ll take the smell of fumes on the streets over being jammed in a hot sweaty train carriage thanks
[quote=“Mucha Man”]I’m surprised you of all people are arguing for the lowest common denominator in the debate on how best to move people around this country.
Yes, Tainan has crappy public transport. So the long term goal then in to ensure that it never gets better?[/quote]
Nah, mate. I’d prefer an awesome system of public transport in Tainan, I really would. But I just don’t see it happening. Not in the near future anyway.
ok who is good at maths? How many bikes equals one car? and how many bikes are there in Taiwan? Can it be the pollution is much worse than a similar country with cars that equal to Taiwans bikes? I dunno [stating the obvious] if Taiwan was cold there would be more cars, therefor bikes win here. I have no solution for an alternative. I ride a bicycle. Interesting to see that many people don’t like them - at least not in the current numbers.
Japan’s cities have a LOT more MRT stations than here in Taipei, plus of course, have you ever been on a Japanese subway in rush hour? It’s horrible! I’ll take the smell of fumes on the streets over being jammed in a hot sweaty train carriage thanks [/quote]
Not all Japan’s subways are like that, I have travelled around Osaka and Kyoto many times and while they are crowded at rush hour it works and works well and non rush hour time is fine. Osaka is the best city to compare to Taipei in Japan, the cities share quite a lot of similarities. Tokyo is not a good comparison as it is has the largest metropolitan population in the world! Rush hour in Taipei Main Station is just as manic in my opinion. Why is it so overcrowded, because of the way the lines are designed and lack of circular lines now, that is being rectified with new lines and stations. I don’t accept what you say above is valid at all.
Again A is not neccessarily opposite B and it is the sheer number of scooters that is the main problem along with the old technology and poor parking enforcement.
I think there’s a real lack of vision, scooters in Taiwan make an excuse for governments not to invest in better modes of transport. Taipei City is soon to have a very extensive and modern MRT network which charges very reasonable prices, there is also an excellent bus network and train system which is also very economic. The other cities in Taiwan are far behind and need more investment and better policies but Taipei City has no real excuse at this stage.
You do realize that you couldn’t possibly fit several hundred cars in that space? This is not a trivial observation but a large reason for the argument that scooters produce more pollution than cars.
You see, having that concentration of vehicles in a small space creates an area of extremely high pollution that will take significantly longer to disperse than the same amount over a larger area. You can have a million vehicles on the road but if the roads are wide and they are not bunched together for long periods of time then the pollution can be quite minimal. One reason air quality is better in Taipei than 20 years ago is that there are so many more overpasses and byways to break up jams and allow for a better flow of traffic.
But there is only so much you can do. The city is built with narrow streets and suffers inversions which trap pollutants. Once again, the special conditions of Taipei demand special solutions.
imagine if these were all cars. btw, this is sanchong anytime 6AM-11PM at any intersection. hopefully the new MRT will cut it down a little…BUT! the MRT or busses don’t actually connect sanchong to other parts in sanchong…only across the bridges to taipei city.[/quote]
Why are there so many people wearing a face mask?
They obviously do realize that something is terribly wrong here.
Something between 500 and 1000 combustion engines in this cramped space, all of them are idling.
How much less gas do they use compare to 1000 cars idling? Not much I guess.
If their engines automatically turned of every time the scooter came to a stand still and accelerated to 25 km/h on an electric engine before the combustion engine kicks in, it wouldn’t be this bad.
There are no laws demanding any progress to make these kind of sights a thing of the past. People standing in their own stench and wearing useless face masks.
