Been holding off on this post since MotorcycleRider owned a 1000. But he’s sold it, and he’s the first to admit it was “too much”.
Went riding with a guy yesterday…the last time I rode with him he rode a 600RR same as me. But he sold it and got a 1000RR. I asked him “Why would you do that?” He responded “More horsepower.” Hmmm.
So last time we rode together he was quicker than me or about the same. This time I’m braking going into every corner so as not to run into the back of him. Then we get onto a long straight…he goes into full tuck and hammers the throttle…I’m thinking “Alright…now some fun.” I get into a tucked racing position and open the throttle…for about 1 second…then I’m on the brakes so as not to run into the back of him . Every single time I’ve ridden with a 1000 not only can I keep up…I can pass them…every time up to now. And I’m not just talking about twisty roads where the “smaller” (they’re practically the same weight and size…1000s and 600s) bike is supposed to have an advantage, on the freeways as well…on long 3 lane open straights with no cars…I still have no problem getting away from the 1000s.
And now before you think I’m just bragging. I have had my ass handed to me a few times. By who? By Taiwanese riding 600s. On a few different occasions I’ve met guys on a 600 who can fairly easily outride me. Just never met someone on a 1000. And considering the MAJORITY here ride 1000s…I don’t think it’s coincidence.
Not saying I would never buy a 1000 here. But if I did it would probably be for a few months…just for the experience. Similar to what MotorcycleRider did. Must be a nice feeling knowing you’ve owned the most powerful production vehicle on Earth…even if it doesn’t belong here.
Don’t forget I’m speaking specifically about SPORTS bikes. When it comes to BMWs and standard type bikes…it’s a whole different ballpark.
Mordeth, that’s a load of horseshit and you know it dude!..It’s obvious that litre bikes nowadays are far and beyond what litre class bikes were 10 years ago…
I’ll make this simple…don’t knock the bikes…knock the riders instead…riding a 600 allows the rider to be quite hamfisted without much chances of “losing it” due to power surges and heavy torque…
1000s require a smoother operation of the throttle and and better knowledge of where the power is on the bike in question. The understanding of these few qualities are seldom respected by many Taiwanese riders. They say things like what your buddy said, “more horsepower”…that’s exactly it, more power means learn how to use it…and that requires a different approach than the 600s…take a look at an world Superbikes race…you’ll see the 600s race first and then the 1000s race…you’ll see lots of different cornering and bike control from one class to another!..
I did the transition from the CBR600RR to the Kawasaki Z1000 and I did have to completely adjust my riding style and power management. Sure the Z1000 wasn’t the flagship sportbike but it had all the character of the ZX-9R(engine and complete rear end)…it took some time to get used to the different behavior of the wider power band and better low end torque…due to this, shifting and gear set-up completely changed than what I would previously select on the 600 for the same roads!..
Once I had the new package figured out, I had a blast!..throttle smoothness was the most noticable change I had to do compared to the 600…The 1000s can do lots more than the 600s, especially since their weights are similar now…but you have to look at it in a different light…
the 600 is for the guy who likes power but just can’t refine his riding style enough to get on a 1000…Or doesn’t want to put in some time at the back of the riding group trying to “learn” how to master a 1000cc steed.
The 1000s are for the guys who are calm and composed enough to make increment changes in their riding style in view of mastering the bike…not for the type who can be decent on a 600 that buys a 1000 for more power!..
Motorcycle rider, i’m not pointing this at you since you did have the least rideable 1000cc bike ever built…too much power with a rock hard chassis/suspension…the R1, 1000RR and GSX-R K5 are all bikes that can be tamed with patience and maturity…
The issue here is not the bikes…but the fact that many peolpe get fooled in thinking that jumping up to higher cc’s is an easy transition…That is not the case and your buddy is the living proof!..there are many more of the same out there!..The time it takes to learn to ride a 1000cc is what frustrates most people because they don’t want to suck after having just bought a higher powerd bike…so they ride out of control and scare themselves!..simple as that!
I rode the 600RR at it’s top many times when riding with some “talented” friends who rode 929s and 954s…they would easily pull on me coming out of corners and eventually build up a few corners distance on me!..they were Taiwanese and very smooth, calm and collected riders.
All of this is just to say that no one can say whether 600 or 1000cc is better…It all comes down to the rider, not the machine…I like both the 600 and 1000s…and I feel I can ride both reasonably well and I do know that i’m a completely different rider aboard a 600 or on a 1000.
What’s a load of horseshit? Could you be more specific?
[quote=“skylarkpuma”]
I’ll make this simple…don’t knock the bikes…knock the riders instead…riding a 600 allows the rider to be quite hamfisted without much chances of “losing it” due to power surges and heavy torque… [/quote]
How many riders you know of with the ability to out handle a 600 on a 1000?
[quote=“skylarkpuma”]
1000s require a smoother operation of the throttle and and better knowledge of where the power is on the bike in question. The understanding of these few qualities are seldom respected by many Taiwanese riders. They say things like what your buddy said, “more horsepower”…that’s exactly it, more power means learn how to use it…and that requires a different approach than the 600s…take a look at an world Superbikes race…you’ll see the 600s race first and then the 1000s race…you’ll see lots of different cornering and bike control from one class to another!.. [/quote]
[quote=“skylarkpuma”]
I did the transition from the CBR600RR to the Kawasaki Z1000 and I did have to completely adjust my riding style and power management. Sure the Z1000 wasn’t the flagship sportbike but it had all the character of the ZX-9R(engine and complete rear end)…it took some time to get used to the different behavior of the wider power band and better low end torque…due to this, shifting and gear set-up completely changed than what I would previously select on the 600 for the same roads!.. [/quote]
The Z isn’t a sports bike…and that’s what I’m talking about here. I doubt the top speed on the 1000Z is higher than the 600’s. The Z also has about 30 horses less than the sport bikes I’m complaining about and out-weighs them by 40 pounds.
[quote=“skylarkpuma”]
Once I had the new package figured out, I had a blast!..throttle smoothness was the most noticable change I had to do compared to the 600…The 1000s can do lots more than the 600s, especially since their weights are similar now…but you have to look at it in a different light… [/quote]
Well, again it’s not the type of bike I’m complaining about. My last paragraph on my original post was…
"Don’t forget I’m speaking specifically about SPORTS bikes. When it comes to BMWs and standard type bikes…it’s a whole different ballpark. "
[quote=“skylarkpuma”]
the 600 is for the guy who likes power but just can’t refine his riding style enough to get on a 1000…Or doesn’t want to put in some time at the back of the riding group trying to “learn” how to master a 1000cc steed. [/quote]
That’s bullshit. What you should say is…The 1000 is for someone who has completely MASTERED the 600.
I know people who have been RACING professionally for YEARS…and they still feel they have a ways to go before moving up to a 1000. You think the average Taiwanese Joe (or Lee) can ride one? You’ll agree they can’t…so my point is valid…1000s are pretty much useless in Taiwan.
As I said above 1000s are for people who have reached the limit on a 600. Guys who can wheelie for blocks (if they so chose to do so)…and have unbeliveable 600 control.
Yep, some of those 1000s are “tamer”…but I’ve still smoked them…each and every time. Could be coincidence though… (again…not trying to brag…I’ve lost plenty to other 600s).
[quote=“skylarkpuma”]
The issue here is not the bikes…but the fact that many peolpe get fooled in thinking that jumping up to higher cc’s is an easy transition…That is not the case and your buddy is the living proof!..there are many more of the same out there!..The time it takes to learn to ride a 1000cc is what frustrates most people because they don’t want to suck after having just bought a higher powerd bike…so they ride out of control and scare themselves!..simple as that! [/quote]
I’ll agree with that…but I’m still trying to figure out why you called my original post bullshit. All I was trying to say was that there isn’t much point for anyone in Taiwan to buy a 1000cc Sports bike…I didn’t say the bikes sucked. Just saying that probably less than 1% of the people that own these bikes can actually ride them better than your average rider on a 600.
[quote=“skylarkpuma”]
I rode the 600RR at it’s top many times when riding with some “talented” friends who rode 929s and 954s…they would easily pull on me coming out of corners and eventually build up a few corners distance on me!..they were Taiwanese and very smooth, calm and collected riders. [/quote]
They’d pass you easily, eh? Maybe that says more about you than it does them .
[quote=“skylarkpuma”]
All of this is just to say that no one can say whether 600 or 1000cc is better…It all comes down to the rider, not the machine…I like both the 600 and 1000s…and I feel I can ride both reasonably well and I do know that I’m a completely different rider aboard a 600 or on a 1000. [/quote]
Nope…as far as Taiwan goes…the 600 is better. The guys I know that ride 600s have never seen their bikes top speeds…not even close. Most guys won’t go much over 200…ever. And then what do they do? They sell the 600 for a bike with a higher top speed?!? From 0-100 there isn’t much difference between the 600s and the 1000s…about .3 of a second. So they don’t want the higher top speed…I’m sure they don’t want the decreased handling aspects…So why are they buying it? For the extra .3 of a second from acceleration? Which I’ve never seen used since even in drag races on straights I’ve still never had a 1000 catch me.
I’ve tried to…except for maybe the " " comment.
MY POINT: My final statement is that a 1000 SPORTS BIKE has a higher top speed (Maybe 20km)…and a tiny amount more of acceleration. But it is significantly harder to ride…as well as being inherently less agile. The only place a 1000 is noticeably faster than a 600 is over 150km/hr…[sarcasm on] I’m sure most big bike guys go over 150 often, since they mainly ride on the 1.5 lane curvy mountain roads…[sarcasm off] Making it a silly bike to own…especially in Taiwan.
…as far as Taiwan goes…the 600 is better. The guys I know that ride 600s have never seen their bikes top speeds…not even close. Most guys won’t go much over 200…ever. And then what do they do? They sell the 600 for a bike with a higher top speed?!? From 0-100 there isn’t much difference between the 600s and the 1000s…about .3 of a second. So they don’t want the higher top speed…I’m sure they don’t want the decreased handling aspects…So why are they buying it? For the extra .3 of a second from acceleration? Which I’ve never seen used since even in drag races on straights I’ve still never had a 1000 catch m
MY POINT: My final statement is that a 1000 SPORTS BIKE has a higher top speed (Maybe 20km)…and a tiny amount more of acceleration. But it is significantly harder to ride…as well as being inherently less agile. The only place a 1000 is noticeably faster than a 600 is over 150km/hr…[
I actually agree with this part. I’ve been shopping for a larger bike but I’m going to get a 600cc. Modern 600 cc bikes have all the power you will need and the performance to handle the roads in Taiwan. Anything bigger is just an ego boost.
Just for the record, I have absolutely nothing against 600s…but to get ahead of yourself and say that 1000s are useless is not an educated comment…the 400ccs make a difference across the board, not just in the top gears at top speed!..the 600s will allow much more margin for error than a 1000…and people don’t want their bikes to bite back!..usually, a track day can sort out the common problems of those having a hard time dealing with their sportbike whether it’s a 600 or 1000…for Taiwan, a 600 is just about right, however a litre bike could do the same if not more, but with a heck of a lot more work required!..
I am well aware that the Z1000 is not a full on sportbike…but I have owned several bikes in the past…1999 R1…so, i’m well acquainted with the feeling and power of a litre bike…
Finally, if you were to have a day of testing on 2 bikes you don’t know, say for example a GSX-R600 and a GSX-r1000…and you’d have to ride the same road once with each bike…you would not be able to tell which one suits you best due to the completely different set-up…although you would probably say that the 600 is easier to ride…that’s normal…a person would say the same about riding a normal horse vs a stallion…but once you know how to ride the stallion, you have a blast!..get it!..
To me, both bikes are big bikes, period. If a 1000cc. is useless in Taiwan, then so is a 600. It’s a matter of getting the feel for your bike. The 1000 is a tad more powerful, more stable at high speed and it’s faster. Yet, it isn’t harder to find a parking spot. As far as handling the bike…It’s the same as a 600 for an experienced rider. Costs more money though so I’d probably go for a 600 all things considered, it’s fast enough.
sorry to have missed this one… As I mentioned a while away I was away on business in Europe and then unexpectedly the US as well, so it’s been a while since I’ve had a chance to forumosify…
Mordeth, first off I have to say I completely agree with you that 1000cc sportsbikes aka race reps, are pointless in Taiwan… the firm suspension is designed to operate best at race level high speeds on smooth tracks and quality roads, both of which are non existent in Taiwan… the ergonomics are designed for 5’ nothing gymnast dwarves, leaving you with aching wrists and crushed privates after 1 hour in the rock hard saddle… the engines are in a high state of tune demanding short service intervals and frequent tuning and as we all know 99.9% of Taiwanese mechanics are about as qualified and capable in this field as they are in open heart brain bypass laser surgery… even assuming all is well mechanically, sportsbike engines still only offer peak performance close to the very limits of operation, which on Taiwanese roads accounts for about 3% of riding at most
Not so distorted my friend. In your comparison you took the slowest 600 and compared it to the fastest 1000. Let’s try reversing it. The R6 does 0-100 in 3.35 sec and the ZX-10R does it in 3.15 … for a difference of .2 of a second…in my original post I said a 1000 is .3 faster. And since there is a chance of flipping the ZX-10R if you go too hard on the throttle…and very little chance of flipping the R6…it’s not so inconceivable that a 600 could fairly easily beat a 1000 in a drag if the 1000 rider wasn
Mordeth, I’ve seen a R1 and GS drag from one traffic light to another. They were neck and neck, both bikes had their front wheels off the ground most of the way. The GS is one bimmer I wouldn’t under estimate. But on a quarter mile it might be a different story.
fair enough, but since in your earlier posts you constantly say that while you had your CBR600RR you never met any another 1000cc sportsbike rider who could come close to you in a drag, so I chose your model 600 vs. the current heavyweight 1000cc liter bike to point out that performance wise the difference between even the newer, improved model of your model 600 and a 1000cc sportsbike is substantial meaning the 1000cc riders you say you were constantly dusting have got to be rubbish off the line to say the least…
I’m no fool mate, I’ve never claimed the GS is a straight line drag racer, nor would I fancy it’s chances against any sportsbike in a straight line drag, 600cc or not… but from A to B across the twisties that compromise 95% of the riding in Taiwan, I’m confident that I’d be parked at B sipping a cold beverage before your CBR arrived and I know several lifetime BMW GS riders here in Taiwan who are a damn sight quicker than me…
surely you’ve made a mistake here… the facts speak for themselves, those figures above are from skilled riders equally experienced riding both 600’s and liter bikes and not one of the fastest 600cc bike’s figures is faster even the slowest 1000cc bike… or in other words between 2 riders of completely equal ability, with both riders having a flawless run, the 1000cc rider would always win a straight line drag… and in fact if you had experience riding a 1000cc machine you would get a quicker 1/4 mile time on a 1000cc bike than you would on your CBR600 even as a “good” rider, not an “expert” rider ( no dig inteded here, I wouldn’t put myself or anyone I know in the “expert rider” category or even “good” for that matter …) so surely your NEW FINAL POINT is wrong as well… it seems that your ACTUAL FINAL POINT is “a 600cc bike is easier to ride than a 1000cc bike”…
I think that Mordeth just wanted to say from the start, in technical terms that “600s are easier to ride than 1000s”…and for Taiwan, I also never denied that…but I had argued that there’s no way that a modern day 600 could keep up with a modern day 1000 at any point in a drag race or proper twisties/track.(given that they are ridden properly)…
Hell, if I still had the Z1000, i’d drag you for sure…and guarantee a beating…(The Z has a ZX-9R engine with a few less ponies, but still packs a huge kick over a 600)…
As for the GS, it’s no “TGV” in a straight line, and it’s obviously not what it was built for, but like “plasmatron” said, it would put the GS rider at point b sipping on coffee a fair amount of time before an average sportbike rider could make it through the twisties!
You both seem to still maintain that a 1000 can easily beat a 600 in a drag. Considering on average the 1000s are only .4 of a second quicker…they’re advantage isn’t huge. And when you consider the amount of concentration for clutch/gas control needed for the 1000…the advantage usually slides over to the 600. But this is only the case when we are talking about the AVERAGE Taiwan rider or probably the AVERAGE anywhere rider.
Plasmatron you say my last final point is wrong because of the stats you posted where the 1000s are always quicker. But the people who rode those were EXPERTS…and like I said 1000s are quicker than 600s when ridden by experts…and for the most part…only then.
I personally believed a 1000 would kill a 600 on any straight road. Until I owned one…and since then I’ve never once seen a 1000 beat a 600…but I’ve seen the opposite.
I know a few guys who could ride a 1000 and beat me…but all of them are smart enough to ride 600s.
Mordeth, when you were talking about 600s compared to 1000s in the twisties in “Taiwain” with “most Taiwanese riders” then I agree with you the advantage isn’t huge. But when you are talking about a 600 vs. a 1000 on a straight line drag, I have to disgree. I believe, no, make that I KNOW that there is a huge difference. No modern 600 can come close to a modern 1000. We’re talking about 30-40hp difference, added to the fact that most 1000s weigh the same as 600s now. Trust me, after owning a ZX-10R, I truely believe that no bike except the new Gixxer K5 will come close to it.
Erh, obvious point I suppose, but what about the weight of the riders?
I find it hard to believe the latest 600s could beat a latest 1,000 without some other disadvantage. No matter what, it really doesn’t take much to wind a bike out on a straight despite the engine size or how wide the power band is . . . unless you are a total novice, of course.
I presume you are talking flat start, no slipstreaming, etc.
not at all, you must have misread what I was getting at… I’m saying that given two riders of absolutely equal ability and experience regardless of whether they are professional GP riders or weekend wanna-be’s, if they both had a perfect run, the 1000cc rider would smoke the 600cc rider in a drag every single time without fail… that is a fact and the numbers back it up… whether or not it’s more difficult to achieve the perfect run on a 1000cc sportsbike compared a 600cc sportsbike is open to debate, but irrespective your ACTUAL FINAL POINT remains: “a 600cc bike is easier to ride than a 1000cc bike” nothing more…
In the above stats from 0-100 a ZX-10R beats a R6 from 0-100 by .2 of a second. That’s not a huge difference to me. One mildly bad shift from the ZX-10R rider and he loses…not a huge advantage.
But then again these bikes reach 100km/hr in a very very short distance…and after that the 10R would pull away. But in the mountains you wouldn’t getting over 100 by much.
The ZX-10R has the tallest first gear of all the liter bikes (I’m talking 110-120km/hr in first gear without redlining it). It takes a fraction longer to get it rolling as you can see by its slowest 0-60mph stats. But once past that its unbeatable, except omaybe for the K5.
The stats show that the 10R is the slowest to 60mph, but for the quarter mile its dead even with the K5. Looking back at those stats, there is one important thing that we must keep in mind. Those 0-60 and 100 stats are for how fast the bike gets up to that speed on a dyno. I doubt that they are done on a drag strip like the stats for the quater mile. I would be interested in seeing the road test quarter mile stats for the 600s and see how they compare to the quarter mile stats for the 1000s.
If those tests are done on a dyno…on a dyno you there is no fear of flipping a bike…or losing control. So, I’d say it’s a safe bet that if you did those test on the road (in comparison to on a dyno)…the 600s would be even closer to the 1000s.
Bike stats on the left are from a 600cc CBR (known to be the slower of the 600s) the stats on the right are from the ZX-10R (the faster of the 1000s). On a drag strip with experienced riders the 600 wins. I’m sure if they raced a few more times the 1000 would win some. But the point is…the 1000s are less agile and more difficult to ride. They only really show their potential over 200km/hr…and with that in mind I’d like to restate my earlier opinion of…IT’S A STUPID BIKE TO OWN IN TAIWAN.
Also notice the “Reaction” time for the CBR is longer…meaning even though the 600 had a slower start…it still beat the 1000.
. Every single time I’ve ridden with a 1000 not only can I keep up…I can pass them…every time up to now. And I’m not just talking about twisty roads where the “smaller” (they’re practically the same weight and size…1000s and 600s) bike is supposed to have an advantage, on the freeways as well…on long 3 lane open straights with no cars…I still have no problem getting away from the 1000s.
(again…not trying to brag…I’ve lost plenty to other 600s).
.
…) so surely your NEW FINAL POINT is wrong as well… it seems that your ACTUAL FINAL POINT is “a 600cc bike is easier to ride than a 1000cc bike”…
