Exactly right. One group dismissing the other who hold different opinions… It’s not that they dismiss their opinions, which they do. They dismiss the right of the other group to even have an alternate opinion.
I think it is ridiculous that the group of people who hold a unified Chinese identity is considered traitors and are peer pressured to stop “selling out Taiwan” when they do no such thing, even if in their hearts, China is the homeland. So what? From their perspectives, that’s how it works. Is that wrong? These people are also treated as unwelcome elements that “drag down” Taiwan. And if one thinks carefullly about that – drag down? Oh I see. Their opinions stand in the way of the TIers, hence they are demonized as being counterproductive reactionaries. Old Culture Revolution tactic, really.
I said I didn’t believe the Falun Gong newspaper. Didn’t you see? At least you concur that Falun Gong newspapers are worth diddly squat.
But if I were you, I’d go check out the referenced book in there. That’s allegedly what the 2/28 investigative committee based its report on. Here is a potential primary source, and just because it says things not to your poltical liking, you just dismiss it out of hand. Shit, what kind of history degree did you get?
So you are denying this, I see. Perhaps the source is not to be trusted. Perhaps. But you don’t even try to be objective before you can find out, you are already denying this. That’s just great.
Taiwanese absolutely did dress like Japanese soldiers and chopped people’s heads off with samurai swords. Although TIers called it “revolution” and “defense” and “street fight.” Do you believe TIers?
Zeugmite’s account doesn’t state that the rioters were attired as Samurai, merely that they were carrying samurai swords and were wearing Japanese headbands.
By the way, I am curious if there are any first hand recorded accounts by RoC soldiers in regards to “communist bandit suppression”.
There’s a difference between opinions and facts, and those 2 should not be blurred in a way making it hard to distinguish between them.
In other world, you can mean whatever you want about 2-28, however, if that leads you to on this or any other board dismiss all reliable eyewhitness accounts who contradicts your opinion, then what you are doing is mixing your opinion with the facts only supporting your opinion. Not good science, by my book, and you deserve to be flamed for it.
I know that it’s harder to be a WSR here than it was 25 years ago. However, jumping from that to the conclusion that 2-28 did not happen is a major and very illogical jump.
Most of them would keep mum. What they did can only be described as a crime against humanity, and you don’t brag about that unless you are absolutely crazy, after all you can be persecuted for it till the day you die.
[quote=“Mr He”]
I know that it’s harder to be a WSR here than it was 25 years ago. However, jumping from that to the conclusion that 2-28 did not happen is a major and very illogical jump.[/quote]
AFAIK nobody has said 2/28 didn’t happen. Go back and review.
So you are denying this, I see. Perhaps the source is not to be trusted. Perhaps. But you don’t even try to be objective before you can find out, you are already denying this. That’s just great.
Taiwanese absolutely did dress like Japanese soldiers and chopped people’s heads off with samurai swords. Although TIers called it “revolution” and “defense” and “street fight.” Do you believe TIers?[/quote]
Third picture down. Bu Lai En, pull your head out of your …
You see, the rebels in 2/28 basically consisted of returned conscipts trained by the Japanese army. They regrouped to form militias and started their rampage before the main crackdown.
It seems I’m hitting a wall of resistance when I suggest concepts like “WSR were also victimized in 228” or “WSR immigrants were killed by BSR japanese conscripts.”
Is really that hard for Taidu supporters to see how unfair the the narrative of 228 is right now on Taiwan. Not only is it inaccurate, but it forever places a stigma on WSR.
Which begs the question why isn’t there a more noble narrative for the holiday? Something to heal the nation of ROC, Taiwan.
I take offense of the last one - Japanese conscripts??? First of all, Japan did not have a presence in Taiwan in 1947, secondly they had no army at that time…
No-one sane here would ever blame 2-28 on every poor refuge washed onto these shores here when KMT China started to collapse - or on their descendants, I hope. The ones (no matter what ethnic group they are part of) who actually participiated, deserve to be hit by the full force of the law.
Do you pay attention to the political discourse on the subject. That’s the whole reason behind 228 holiday. To finally finally allow the BSR an outlet to vent their racist frustrations against the WSR. 228 is the “Original Sin” that all WSR bear from the BSR point of view.
They were at the time. The KMT shot them for rioting in the street and killing WSR civilians and disobeying ROC authorities. This is all well documented.
It is the BSR that should have obeyed the law in the first place. Like I keep mentioning to deaf ears the Japanese imposed the Alcohol and Tobacco tax, ROC only inherited those laws and tried to enforce them.
In modern day context, it would be like if you went to a nightmarket and there was an ROC Intellectual Property office trying to get rid of bootlegged CD’s and DVD, targetting a female nightmarket stall owner. The Taiwanese riot over this, voicing their grievances on how can the ROC enforce USA imposed laws through the WTO. They started taking it out on the “foriegners” in taiwan. ROC sents out the riot polices and military to stop the rebellion…
Returned Japanese conscripts, Mr. He, “returned.” They came back to Taiwan in 1945 from killing people (including mainland Chinese) all over Asia for the Japanese emperor. People forgive them for that because they were “forced to” and were unfortunate “Chinese.” Little did people know they considered themselves fully Japanese and couldn’t wait to kill more “ch!nks.” They have a Japanese word for this. Go ask any old Taiwanese guy and they will know “Chankoro” = “ch!nk.” That was their mentality toward Chinese people.
LTH’s brother was one of them and in fact is buried at Yakusuni Shrine, you know, that one that causes all the uproar in Asia when Junichiro visits? LTH is so proud of his brother’s handiwork, too.
[quote=“ac_dropout”]
Do you pay attention to the political discourse on the subject. That’s the whole reason behind 228 holiday. To finally finally allow the BSR an outlet to vent their racist frustrations against the WSR. [/quote]
I thought it was to commemorate the 10,000 dead in the massacres???
Random killings??? That was what happened. When the soldiers knocked on doors and killed whoever opened, would they produce a judge and a jury first?
Judging from most contemporary sources, soldiers participiating in the 2-28 did not really care about any laws… Also, please post a link showing that ROC laws in 1947 condoned random killings of unarmed civilians.
Well, if the law enforcement oficer killed her for selling bootlegged CD’s some amount of unrest would be likely and understandable.
Also, the foreigners were not targeted by anyone during 2-28. Don’t know where you get all that BS from.
[quote=“zeugmite”]Returned Japanese conscripts, Mr. He, “returned.” They came back to Taiwan in 1945 from killing people (including mainland Chinese) all over Asia for the Japanese emperor. People forgive them for that because they were “forced to” and were unfortunate “Chinese.” Little did people know they considered themselves fully Japanese and couldn’t wait to kill more “ch!nks.” They have a Japanese word for this. Go ask any old Taiwanese guy and they will know “Chankoro” = “ch!nk.” That was their mentality toward Chinese people.
LTH’s brother was one of them and in fact is buried at Yakusuni Shrine, you know, that one that causes all the uproar in Asia when Junichiro visits? LTH is so proud of his brother’s handiwork, too.[/quote]
Yes, blame your own killings on the Japanese… Much easier than face the truth. The heart of the matter was that anyone who returned from fighting the japanese were not fighting for them anymore.
I have seen no reliable accounts whatsoever that returned conscripts started killing ‘mainlanders’ prior to the attacks by the KMT following 228. Certainly some were killed as they went about massacring the local population, but very few. KMT estimates at the time were 100 killed.
As for the ‘ronin’. Thjat picture of zeugmite’s 學生兵 is just as likely a ‘student volunteer’. When Chenyi declared martial law, he withdrew all police. Students and teachers stepped in to take their place.
Wait if 900 got awared for death by the ROC government, and 100 died from WSR population. That’s only 1000 death for 228 (Assume there are no duplicate counts).
So the tens of thousand death on 228 is like “dark matter” of the universe.
Now who is overgeneralising and playing the race card? All the ‘BSR’ broke the law?
I think you’ll find that they did more than just try to enforce Japanese laws. And considering that they were meant to be liberators from these oh so awful Japanese (who you seem to hate so much) what the fuck were they doing trying to mantain these laws? Are you saying you now think the way the Japanese did things was the right way?
You are also treating the whole incident in a vacuum AC. You seem to forget that when the mainland forces first came to Taiwan to replace the Japanese the were welcomed as liberators. The trouble was they then proved to be worse than the Japanese. Sure the Japanese were brutal and treated the locals as second class citizens. There was not however the same level of sheer unpredictability, mal-administration and thievery that went on with the KMT and Chen Yi in charge. You cannot treat the tobacco incident in the isolated manner in which you do. It was the straw that broke the camel’s back. Chen Yi and the KMT had taken a welcoming, well ordered, educated and industrious Taiwanese population and treated them so badly that they became a problem for such a poorly skilled regime. 2-28 was just the final straw.
I did not use the qualifier “All.” The pronoun phrase “the BSR” refers specifically to the lady that was selling bootleg tobacco products.
And might I add smoking is a terrible habit.
If it was a WSR lady that broke the law of selling bootleg tobacco, I assure you 228 would not be a pan-Green rallying point that it is today.
So we can blame Chen Yi’s bad management and governing style. Does the fact CKS executed the guy absolve the KMT or WSR. Nope, the mythos of WSR original sin lives on in the pan-Green culture.
I’m very aware of the complex situation in Asia at the time. Japan bled Taiwan dry for the war in the pacific theater, and ROC also bled Taiwan after the handover due to the continuing civil war on the mainland.
However, Japans gets a “pass” in the pan-Green culture, where as the KMT gets vilified for setting up a system that eventually led to a BSR president in the same amount of time of 50 or so years.
Japan gets idolized for doing the same stuff the KMT did in pan-Green culture. Sounds pretty twisted if you ask me.
That is so true! 2/28 would not even have happened. Can you imagine? There would have been no Japanoid riots over this. In fact, locals would have clapped their hands and cheered that a mainlander “pig” had been domesticated; if WSR had rioted over this and got put down by the KMT, George Kerr too would have writ approvingly, “My Formosan friends have told me over betel nut break that CKS is a stern but masterful administrator.”