2-28

Well, I wouldn’t discount entirely Kerr’s account just based on his special fondness of “Formosans” as he calls them and loss of memory through the passage of time, though both are important to keep in mind. These things are best investigated from first sources, using the words of the people involved, not of somebody watching (or hearing about?).

Brutal methods were no doubt used during the 2/28 incident, but what end it was used for, specifically whether Kerr was correct in interpreting it as stemming from “revenge” (as opposed to putting down a rebellion) is highly questionable. It seems unlikely that he would be able to fully investigate all the backstories like some guys were executed only because some mainlander officials “lost face” and wanted revenge. How does he know that that was the reason? Perhaps because his “Formosan” friends told him so? Evidently some house searches would turn up guns and other weapons, Kerr mentions. We also know how these weapons were brutally used prior to the crackdown in random violence against mainlanders. Kerr doesn’t seem to be aware of this. The “youths” Kerr is so fond about were basically anarchist gangsters returning from overseas conscription under the Japanese emperor. Kerr hears gunfires at night in the hills. How does he know it wasn’t gangsters shooting up some mainlander? If ordinary residents were afraid for their lives, these “Hirohito youths” certainly weren’t afraid to die. Can he tell a mainlander from a “Formosan” on sight? Can he tell who was shooting whom from hearing some gunshot? That would be an amazing ability.

Anyway, instead of going on further about 2/28 (or really about Kerr, since that’s all you guys have offered up; we don’t have the whole picture of 2/28.) I again offer up Fallujah (or whatever is going on in the rest of Iraq) as a modern point of reference. All of Fallujah was liquidated because 4 (how many exactly?) American contractors were killed and because the town harbored “enemies.” Was that revenge? Or was that justice? The point is, even for the same factual event, some will describe it as bringing terrorists to justice, others will describe it as brutal humanitarian atrocity. Who is a rebel and who is a civilian when the whole town is against you? It’s just not that simple. If people don’t agree about Iraq when it’s 2005 right in front of your eyes, then … you know the rest.

That was after 2/28. And they weren’t killed for being educated.

So I just noticed this. Is there ANY evidence for this?

[/quote]

Then perhaps you should try reading the www.228.org.tw government articles which document my above statements.

During the Japanese occupation of Taiwan many people were tertiary educated and held high positions due to their abilities. Many of these people were slaughtered after 228 because CKS didn’t trust anybody educated by the Japanese.

[quote=“Satellite TV”]
Then perhaps you should try reading the www.228.org.tw government articles which document my above statements.

Many of these people were slaughtered after 228 because CKS didn’t trust anybody educated by the Japanese.[/quote]

So the government articles state “Many of these people were slaughtered after 228 because CKS didn’t trust anybody educated by the Japanese” and shows how that is the case, such as an official saying “I don’t trust any Japanese educated people, let’s kill all of them”? Where?

Because that would be hilarious, seeing how CKS himself was Japanese educated.

The parts of his book, where he tells about what he SAW is more than enough, for me.

Also, according to my knowledge, his account has not been challenged by anyone credible. As to why he published the book in 1965? Can’t see that it matters a thing.

No, but he was in the middle of it, and being who he was - IE an important American official, he had no choice but to only state things which could be verified and checked.

Whether the young people shot by the CKS goons were previously in any kind of Japanese organization is also completely irrelevant. After all, if they were in one while Taiwan was part of japan, they hardly committed any crime by merely being members. The rest of what you say there with BS like “Hirohito Youth” and the like is as reliable as a KMT press release, unless you are able to provide credible sources.

so what? I am not american, so you don’t get me annoyed by claiming that Fallujah was “liquidated”, a claim I find hard to believe unless you again offer a bit of hard evidence.

achievement.org/autodoc/page/par0bio-1
Given her bio, I do believe she is of Black slave descent in the USA and not of the more recent “immigrant” Black population in the USA.

Doesn’t matter what I feel. It is the fact of war and establishing a new government. People die. It is an inevitable fact of regime change/liberation/conquest. Which is why I advocate ROC avoid war with PRC at all cost. Because if a military solution is used, people will continue to be killed after the war. Why let history repeat itself?

That is correct in an unstable situation leadership will kill all who they deem as threats. It is a reality of life. Chen Yi was killed by CKS when he had evidence he threaten him. Li Ao was imprisoned when CKS thought his writing threaten him.

So if TI’er continue to walk down the path of war with the PRC and lose. They will die as well. The TI’er leadership will be publicly executed or severely punished as examples to the masses. The remaining dissidents will then be imprison/exiled/murdered.

So that is the reason we must avoid war; to avoid unnecessary deaths.

[quote]You also sated in a tread that anybody who didn

achievement.org/autodoc/page/par0bio-1
Given her bio, I do believe she is of Black slave descent in the USA and not of the more recent “immigrant” Black population in the USA.

Do you have an intimate knowledge of WSR and BSR mindset when it comes to ethnic relationships on Taiwan?[/quote]

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:01 am Post subject:


[b]Quote: I said…
Yes well AC perhaps that’s because Ms Parks wasn’t rounded up with all her fellow family members and executed for challenging unjust laws.

AC Replied…

Uhm, they were rounded up from Africa and sold as slaves, if they survived that long to breed in the new world that is… [/b]

You Said MS parks was rounded up from Africa and sold as slaves… can’t you even read your own writing?

AS for intimate knowledge as to WSR BSR I’ve been married to both, that’s pretty intimate.

[quote]The parts of his book, where he tells about what he SAW is more than enough, for me.

Also, according to my knowledge, his account has not been challenged by anyone credible. As to why he published the book in 1965? Can’t see that it matters a thing. [/quote]
The book wasn’t published in Chinese till 1973, and what Chinese person would even know who he was talking about besides the dead Chen Yi.

All the Asian in the book are give vague description. “Unorganized Chinese serviceman,” “Poor village people,” and “Japanese educated militia.”

Kerr ran in a pretty isolated environment on Taiwan. He was in a part of the military department entrusted to write educational/propaganda material for the natives, like his Okinawa book. However, unlike the Okinawa book he has no natives on staff doing research for him for the Forumosa book. So everything is a written like a narrative which is very difficult to challenge.

If he said 4 village people came by to visit him because they were concerned for his safety and later “paid a price”, who can debate that. He stated these village people felt indebted to the USA because they were taken as POW during WWII, who can disagree. No names, no places, no ranks, or serial numbers to dispute.

Kerr’s book like 228 is overblown hype which has been reinterpreted to discredit the KMT and pan-Blue, nothing more.

Satellite TV,

The irony of the statement was that Rosa Park didn’t have to be rounded up executed. That would be just a passing pang.

She had to live down the legacy of slavery for a lifetime.

It was their dissent that did them in. [/quote]

Oh. So for showing a bit of dissent thats ok then? So the next time you show some dissent or join a protest against the govenment of the day you won’t mind if they murder you, your family, friends and whoever else passed your way…

Well sorry to spoil your party there AC but Rosa Parks wasn’t a slave.

[quote=“zeugmite”][quote=“Satellite TV”]
Then perhaps you should try reading the www.228.org.tw government articles which document my above statements.

Many of these people were slaughtered after 228 because CKS didn’t trust anybody educated by the Japanese.[/quote]

So the government articles state “Many of these people were slaughtered after 228 because CKS didn’t trust anybody educated by the Japanese” and shows how that is the case, such as an official saying “I don’t trust any Japanese educated people, let’s kill all of them”? Where?

Because that would be hilarious, seeing how CKS himself was Japanese educated.[/quote]

Obviously you can’t read then

228.org.tw/history228_area.php?id=38

That was after 2/28. And they weren’t killed for being educated. It was their dissent that did them in.

KMT didn’t go kill the so-called “cream of the crop” of Taiwanese (according to TI) so that one ethnic group could be dominated. KMT jailed anybody who dissented and made examples out of intellectuals, Taiwanese or not[/quote]

Nice to see that you actually agree with us when we said that people were murdered because of their education. Intellectuals who were not dissenting were also murdered.

[quote=“ac_dropout”] [quote]You also sated in a tread that anybody who didn

Oh? Let me ask you. Do you believe stuff carried by one of them Falun Gong newspapers? I don’t. But since you do, here is something from it that various people picked up, including a US DPP chapter.

twtp2usa.taiwantp.net/cgi/dppusw … earchword=

If you also don’t believe Falun Gong newspapers, perhaps you can check out the book referenced in there. I’ll make some brief translations of interesting parts.

【博訊7月17日消息】

(二二八事件目擊者 - 蕭玉珍口述)

The oral narrative of an 2/28 eye witness: Xiao Yu Zhen. Word has it she lives in Maryland.

● 二二八事件碑文雖以定稿,但絕對未盡公允也不完整,在這事件中,最弱勢的死難者族群 - 暴動初期冤枉遭殺害的外省人,卻在所謂的決策當局,學者專家,社會公正人士及死難者家屬的所謂的折衷協調下,被完全忽略。他們有不少人是全家冤死,也有的被殺後留下分隔兩地嗷嗷待哺的妻兒,就此天人永別,而家屬全不知情,一樣是善良的老百姓,但是平反,伸張,補償,卻未適用於他們的身上,是有意的忽略,還是犧牲弱者?我們的社會就這樣的把他們抛棄了。要知道,有選擇的正義,不是正義! 本人親身經歷二二八事件,現雖年事已高,但自覺有義務將當時所見所聞加以說明,一爲歷史作見證,二來但求告慰這些冤死者在天之靈。
臺灣光復初期,因著蔣總統的以德報怨號召,從大陸及南洋平安遣返的台籍日軍有數十萬人之多,他們當中有不少人已被完全日化,以講日語爲榮,自認爲大日本帝國臺灣國之子民,無法接受日本戰敗之事實,仍緬懷昔日的皇軍威風,無視於儘管當時百廢待舉,而政府仍盡力照顧,遣返,醫療之苦心,而心懷不滿,待機生事。同時,在光復兩年後,亦有不少昔日皇民化的公務員,因仍習講日語,不講國語,而被替換,一下子無法適應從大人降爲老百姓的心態,也就不滿政府而推波助瀾。再加上共產黨的伺機而動,幾個爆炸性的因素聚合在一起,因著二二八的導火線而一發不可收拾。
我是廣東人,當時在夏門高等法院作個小職員。與同事朋友十餘人一起赴台觀光(當時大陸局面尚未惡化) ,在基隆,臺北遊玩後,再獨自至高雄探望叔伯。我們一行人坐著朋友借來的車子到四處遊玩。二二八當日及後兩三天高雄平安無事,大概就在第四五天時,我們在外面玩到一半時,高雄就變成了個恐怖城。

I am a Cantonese. Then I was a high court clerk in Xiamen. I went with some ten friends to tour Taiwan (at that time the mainland situation hasn’t deteriorated.) After visiting Keelung, Taipei, we went to Kaohsiung to visit uncles. I went with some people in a car borrowed from friends and went around everywhere. On the day of 2/28 and two or three days afterwards, Kaohsiung was calm. But just about four or five days time, while we were touring, Kaohsiung became a city of terror.

依稀記得當日該是個周末吧,街上遊人甚多,在下午一兩點,我們欲轉往屏東遊覽時,暴亂開始發生。在十字路口,我們被一群浪人攔車盤查,爲什麽稱他們爲浪人呢?因爲他們都是一副日本打扮 - 頭綁日本巾,手持武士刀。都是五十歲以下之壯丁,二三十人一夥,攔人攔車查問。我們夏門也講臺語,因此未遭毒手,但當時我親見車外兩位男子被盤問砍殺的整個過程。
他們當時被攔下,被用台語盤問,供日語沒?不會。供台語沒?不會。供客話沒?不會。當場,巴格野魯,幹XX ,武士刀就砍下來。一人當場罹難,另一人想逃跑,亦被追上用武士刀砍死,身上噴出的血濺了尺高。

If I recall, it was a weekend. Many people were about the streets. At about one or two in the afternoon, when we wanted to turn and travel to Pingtung for a visit, the riot started to happen. At a road crossing, we were flagged down and interrogated by a group of “ronin” (Jap: jobless man, lit. wanderer). Why do I say ronin? Because they are attired like Japanese – Japanese headband on forehead, a samurai sword in their hands. These are all strong men below the age of 50, about 20 to 30 in a gang; they were flagging down cars and interrogating. In Xiamen we also spoke Taiwanese (Min-nan), so we were spared, but at the time we witnessed with our own eyes the entire process whereby two men outside our car were interrogated and hacked to death.
They were stopped first, then asked in Taiwanese: speak Japanese or no? No. Speak Taiwanese or no? No. Speak Hakka or no? No. Immediately, it was “bakayaru” (Jap: bastard), fuck XX, and samurai sword hacking. One of them died then and there, the other one wanted to run away. He was also overrun and hacked to death with a samurai sword, his blood squirting several meters high.

當時只以爲是局部的,偶發的事件,只想逃離現場,結果越走越不對勁,幾乎每個大路口,都有這類浪人成群的在把關,街上的體也越來越多,慘不忍睹。在車上眼見對穿旗袍者就連問都不問,持刀就砍,男女老少全都不放過,有的甚至全家罹難。小的有至繈褓中的一兩歲小兒及大至十來歲的小孩,都無一倖免,更有的頭被完全砍掉,身首異處。不把人當人,只要非我認同族類,一律消滅,與南京大屠殺軍民不分的同樣獸行。

At the time we believed it to be a local ans singular incident, and just wanted to escape the location. But the further we went the more abnormal it got. Almost at every big road crossing, there are gangs of ronin manning checkpoints. Bodies on the ground also became more and more, and it was revolting to see. If they see qipao (Chinese robe) wearers in cars, they wouldn’t even ask before hacking, men, women, elders, children, none were spared, some whole families met this end. The young ones were as young as one or two year old babies still in their carriers and children ten years old or so, none met mercy. There were moreover cases where heads were hacked off, leaving body and head in separate places. They don’t look at you as human, if you aren’t my kind, I will destroy you, how is that different from the beastly acts of the Nanjing Massacre?

我們深受驚駭,決定繞路返回,結果是愈見愈慘,尤其是高雄火車站,前鎮一帶及往高雄工職的大馬路上,體堆積如山。就我粗略估計,應有上千人之多。僅高雄一地,我所見者就如此,全省死難者更不知有多少。 你無法相信這是因爲單純的查私煙風波而起,也不可能像大陸上荒年欠收,民不聊生的暴動。要說對當時施政不滿,爲何要以血淋淋的百姓生命爲祭品?爲何要以族類劃分生死?其實,真正的臺灣人是很善良的,在暴動時也都躲在家裏,更有的對逃難者施以援手。今碑文定稿,此段屠殺不交代,公益何在?

We were deeply terrified so decided to take a detour and go back, but we kept coming upon more and more gruesome scenes, especially at Kaohsiung’s train station, in the front part of the town and along some large roads, corposes were piled like hills. My own rough estimate should be nearly a thousand dead. Just in Kaohsiung alone. It is just what I have seen, no one knows how many in the whole province. You could not believe this was simply caused by a simple tobacco tax check incident, and it couldn’t have been like the mainland sort of riots in years of bad harvests and heavy taxes. If one was dissatisfied with the government, why bloodily sacrifice the innocent? Why must ethnic grouping be the divide between life and death? In fact, real Taiwanese are kind, and while these riots were going on they stayed home, and more gave the helping hand to refugees in flight. Today’s 2/28 memorial plaque totally leaves out this massacre – where is the justice?

當時在台的除軍人外,外省人大部份就是公務員,及沿海省份來台經商人士,以溫州人居多,浙江人也不少,這些人是無辜冤死的大多數。在街頭屠殺還不夠,這些浪人開始逐屋尋人殺戮,於是外省百姓開始逃向要塞尋求保護。在一些善良百姓幫忙下,假借日本裝扮,惡補些日語,台語,以逃避浪人之盤查捕殺。姑不論所謂之定稿評論,柯遠芬,彭孟輯,史宏喜,張慕陶等人,在當時的避難百姓眼中都成了保生大帝,救苦救難的觀世音菩薩。

At that time in Taiwan, mainlanders were, besides armymen, mainly public servants, as well as traders from the coastal provinces, mostly Wenzhou people, and not so few Zhejiang people also. These people make up most of the innocent victims. While it was not enough for the ronin to murder on the street, they even went in search house by house for people to kill. Therefore, mainlander commoners began to go to strategic places in search of protection. With the help of kind people, they were given a duplicitous Japanese attire, crammed a few Japanese and Taiwanese phrases, in order to escape the ronin’s interrogation and hunt. Putting aside the official version, Ke Yuan Fen, Peng Meng Ji, Shi Hong Xi, Zhang Gong Tao, et al. were the saviors and bodhisattva among the refugees then.

我法院一客家同事,先生在新竹當軍需處長,住在客家村,亦被暴民入村點名要人。先生雖有兩隻槍,卻不敢用,怕子彈用完仍救不了全家,只好個人躲入糞坑躲藏,還因此得病,但勉強倖免。

A Hakka colleague from my court and her husband, who is a military official stationed in Hsinchu, both lived in a Hakka village. Even that village was visited upon by rioters demanding blacklisted people. He had two guns, but he dared not use them, afraid that bullets would be exhausted before he could save his family. He had to conceal himself in a compost pit, and on account of this got a sickness, but fortunately he recovered.

當時外省人戶籍資料根本不全,所以被屠殺多少,根本無法統計,遺留在大陸之親戚家人根本無從得知,超渡無門,亦爲人間一大慘事。 在如此悲慘,屠殺多日的局面下,你說政府怎能不派兵?而軍隊上岸後,所見遍地死,及街頭上耀武揚威拿著武士刀濫殺無辜的浪人,又怎會不開槍呢? 沒等到戒嚴,我就提前返夏門了。現雖已事隔半甲子,但當時之慘狀。猶歷歷在目,難以忘懷,我若不替他們說出來,我心不安。

At that time the mainlander household registers were totally incomplete, so there was no way at all to estimate how many were murdered. Their relatives on the mainland had no way of knowing. … I left before martial law, ahead of schedule, and went back to Xiamen. Though it has been half a life since then, the gruesome scenes of that time remains in my mind, and it is hard to forget. If I don’t tell the story, my heart cannot be at peace.

●其他史實考證資料: 李登輝下令,行政院所出之

Well sorry to spoil your party there AC but Rosa Parks wasn’t a slave.[/quote]
And neither were the BSR on Taiwan under the KMT.

But yet both groups thought they had a legitimate complaint based on your logic. :loco:

The real jist of the introduction of Martin Luther King in my argument…

The wise leadership in the USA choose to memorialize a healer, MLK, for past atrocities between the White and Black America.

The leadership of Taiwan decides to memorialize a riot, which to this day divides ROC society.

[quote=“Satellite TV”][quote=“ac_dropout”] [quote]You also sated in a tread that anybody who didn

[quote=“ac_dropout”][quote=“Satellite TV”][quote=“ac_dropout”] [quote]You also sated in a tread that anybody who didn

Well sorry to spoil your party there AC but Rosa Parks wasn’t a slave.[/quote]

And neither were the BSR on Taiwan under the KMT. But yet both groups thought they had a legitimate complaint based on your logic. :loco: The real jist of the introduction of Martin Luther King in my argument…

The leadership of Taiwan decides to memorialize a riot, which to this day divides ROC society.[/quote]

Again AC you go off on a tangent… first you say Rosa Parks was rounded up as a slave but now it’s comparisons with BSR.

228 is not to commemorate a riot… you really have screwed up reality. This thread is about 228 not MLK. What happened in the USA is totally different that the 228 situation here. I have never tried to link these two events AC, thats your act.

I hadn’t noticed that the 228 divides the nation, except for those who try to justify the actions as being correct.

Satellite TV,

I take full responsibility for what I post. However, I take no responsibility on how I can be misinterpreted.

I deliberately used the pronoun, they in the sentence. I once again I cannot be responsible for misinterpretation. If you believe they refers to a singular female, I cannot be at fault.

If you are you contesting that a riot never occured on 228, then your grasp of history is even worst than mine.

I cannot take credit for the actions of the DPP and CSB. I have no power to set holidays in ROC.

My position is still that the 228 holiday was framed incorrectly as a holiday on ROC. Instead of being like MLK holiday with a noble message of equality for all, 228 holiday is a holiday that divides ROC society. More thought should have been given to the narrative and presentation of the events.

Read your sentence again. You just acknowledged there are other voices on Taiwan that express different views on the event, however, you take a dismissive tone on their views.

Not to be blunt, but this is an example of dividing a nation. You know, where one group dismisses the other group.

ac_dropout and Zeugmite, you guys are ridiculous.

I wrote:

So you decide to defend and deny the slaughter of Taiwanese by the KMT, by attacking that source. Other primary sources I have read agree with Kerr, and secondary sources consider him reliable. I have a degree in history, and consider the opinions of professional historians to be more valubale than yours, so I’ll agree with them, to consider Kerr’s account to be accurate.

As for the dubious stuff posted by Zeugmite - Taiwanese dressed as samurai, running round chopping off people’s heads with their Samurai swords? Absurdly ridiculous! Funny how the New Zealand, UN aid worker Allan Shackleton who wrote of his experiences in Gaoxiong at the time noticed none of this. :unamused:

Brian