Sorry TM, but here, at least in my opinion, you are wrong. The connection is far stronger than one of just ethnicity. China is after all, the place of their birth to their biological parents, who are also Chinese, something that can never be removed.
I may go along with that basic assumption, but i believe that they do it as they feel it is in the interest of the child, rather than for some racist motive, even though the act can be construed as racist.
Hammer, nail, head methinks. Society does expect to much to often, there i have to agree with you, but that is not going to be changed soon if ever at all. It would be nice if such an idyliic world existed where all race, religion colour and credd etc could be removed as aspects that dictated thought or action. Unfortunately such a place will never exist.
Far to many ethnic groups where they are relatively recent immigrants have a tendency to kepp themselves to themselves and effectively start the whole process. Even in the earlier days of the US, the Irish, Italian immigrants generally kept themselves to themselves and it took quite some time before they became more integrated. Even in the UK certain asian groups are known for not really trying or wanting to integrate properly, this leads only to easily to the stereotyping and social expectations that we are now discussing.
[quote=“Tigerman”]
I understand well that some people from outside the famly and from societies will hold some expectations regarding any child/person based on that person’s ethnicity or race. I think such expectations are racist. Isn’t that the defiinition of “racism”? I think that the willingness to pander to these racial expectations only perpetuates such racist beliefs. I haven’t indicated whether I believe this is a good or a bad thing. I’m only questioning whether this is racist… so far, I am inclined to believe that it is…[/quote]
I don’t believe that it would perpetuates ‘racist’ beliefs. What it could perpetuate are/is ideals about one’s place in the world. Therefore, leading to a limited view of one’s self. Or it could do the opposite.
Any child will take on positive and negative aspects of their parents. Having that external link could aid them with having a sense of self in a country that has yet to truly give Asians a public place on the American culture stage.
[quote=“ac_dropout”]
Because Blacks are part of mainstream culture in the US. Remember “Different Strokes” and “Webster”…[/quote] And what was MLK - a minstrel ? Certainly, ‘growing’ up in a Black neighborhood, you could use much much better example.
[quote]Of course the irony of Blacks acceptance in US mainstream culture required a couple of hundred years of slavery and wiping out any trace of African culture in the US.[/quote] Not true, learn about the Gullahs in the Carolinas.
I agree 100% with that statement. That’s why I think its important for parents to instill as much as possible a sense of self and self worth in their children, regardless of what idiotic notions or expectations are maintained by others.[/quote]
But in that case, surely instilling a sense of self requires making them really aware of who they are, where they came from etc. Explanation of culture etc can even go to helping the child undertand why sometimes they have a different thought process than others.
I was watching either NGC or Discovery channel the other day, and the documentary was talking about some of the instincts, behaviour patterns, thought processes that are put in place during the childs development as a foetus. Now i am not saying that with much effort these could not be changed, but if the report was correct, then again having some understanding of your birth culture would go some way to explaining why certain thoughts etc were occuring.
I agree. But, then, I wonder if parents who adopted a Chinese baby and immersed said baby in Chinese language and cultural traditions would have done the same had they adopted a black baby instead. My feeling is that most parents would not. And then I would ask, ‘why not’? The answer that occurs to me seems to be dependent upon race/ethnicity.[/quote]
There i would have to agree, chinese babies are to some extent the current fashion trend. Whilst i applaud those people for taking on the child and probably giving it a much better future, why go to China when in most western countries there are still fairly long lists of home produced children waiting adoption. I could understand if a chinese couple who wanted to adopt and finding no ethnically chinese children available in the country, might go to China to adopt, but for the average white western family, then it is a little harder to understand, other than maybe their own personal satisfaction of having saved the child from a miserable life in an impoverished area.
Yes they can. They are removed when the adoption papers are signed.
There is no real “connection” to China or to the Bio-parents. You might as well say there is a connection to the chimpanzee too. That can never be taken away either.
Why people are fanscinated by how life’s mundanities are performed by other humans beings across the world, and how some of these mundanities are worthy of being passed along to children removed from those places is beyond me.
That some cultures are more likely than others to be passed on to adopted offspring just shows that culture is a farce, and has become a bionic arm of the ego. On culture day, some kid gets to be emperor of China, and another gets to be a conedick. It’s stupid and serves as just ANOTHER way to seperate and stratify ourselves. (“You were adopted from a shithole, and I was adopted from 5000 years of Chinese culture.”)
Tigerman mentioned instilling a strong sense of self in children, and I would add that this sense of self should preclude culture, ethnicity, religion and race.
But I would suspect that the Korean child could not speak nor read Korean at the level of her peers in Korea.
Nor was she ever given the opportunity to interact with her cousins and friends in Korea as a child.
Is that an obsticle to the formation of an identity that is stable and content for an individual? I believe it is.
Especially, when the child attends university and see all the ABC, FOB, and Twinkies. It’s a shock to the system.
Oh, so that’s how Asian Americans behave when foreigners aren’t looking. Some of them we can save. The others are lost causes…
Yes they can. They are removed when the adoption papers are signed. [/quote]
JD, wrong and totally over simplistic. The connection to the Bio-parents is very real and unremovable. It is called Genes and DNA. If the report i saw is accurate, then certain aspects traits in behaviour are determined by the biological parents at conception, something else that cannot be removed.
Now you are being fecicious, that link is how many years and generations ago, whereas in the cases we are talking about, it is just a little different.
Perhaps if you had actually spent far more time in many other different places in this world you would change your attitudes.
[quote=“jdsmith”]That some cultures are more likely than others to be passed on to adopted offspring just shows that culture is a farce, and has become a bionic arm of the ego. On culture day, some kid gets to be emperor of China, and another gets to be a conedick. It’s stupid and serves as just ANOTHER way to separate and stratify ourselves. (“You were adopted from a shithole, and I was adopted from 5000 years of Chinese culture.”)
Tigerman mentioned instilling a strong sense of self in children, and I would add that this sense of self should preclude culture, ethnicity, religion and race.[/quote]
Then i would say you are wrong, ethnicity and race are not precludable, and if you really dont realise that then naivety is the only word that comes to mind.
MLK couldn’t even muster himself up to say Blacks. I was in the ghetto of the Northeast, so our heros were NWA. None of that “I have a dream,” nonsense. It was all about Malcolm X.
Not to delve into the inter-Black division. But there was no love for those southern “fresh of the platation” Blacks. Once a family move onto the block from Florida. No love for their kids for at least 3 months.
[quote]But I would suspect that the Korean child could not speak nor read Korean at the level of her peers in Korea.
Nor was she ever given the opportunity to interact with her cousins and friends in Korea as a child.
[/quote]
Why would she need to read and speak Korean? Because she looked Korean?
Why not learn Japanese or Chinese? She ended up learning French and moving to Paris, where you would have had her back in Seoul trying to fit in. lol
Again, why? I’m white. I can’t hit three pointers like Larry Bird, nor can I play Ice Hockey or golf, or hunt or bowl. So what? You seem to want to push culture because of race. I do just fine without it. I like hanging out with people from all over, and I don’t like to going to weddings or funerals of any culture or religious flavor.
I try to aspire to a higher standard. My son rides a bike because I like riding bikes. He likes playing baseball because I like playing baseball. He plays redlightgreenlight with his friends. He goes snorkeling because I go diving. he likes the Dead because I like the Dead. He sings Chinese pop songs because his mom sings Chinese pop songs. parents should be determined to pass on to their kids the best things they can so that their kids become good people, not good black people, or good Chinese people.
After living overseas for a total of 15 years, 13 here and 2 in japan, race and culture are just two more big stupid lies to add to the pire.
I would doubt that is unless he spends significant amounts of time in similar age grouped kids where english is the only language spoken. Your kid lives in a chinese environment, where the english he hears and uses is probably only at home, he will not be learning the street talk that is currently in use with kids the US as he is not there, so his ability is not the same.
My wife and i recognised and accepted that this would be a fact even before our child was born. Going through the public school system here is not conducive to learning proper english, certainly not at a level equivalent to a native speaker. We accepted that even with the time that we would put into teaching her english, if she went to an english medium school after primary school at say age 12/13 then she would need to spend at least one year being held back in a real effort to bring her up to speed, but that she woulfd have the added bonus of being natively fluent in chinese.
[quote=“ac_dropout”] I was in the ghetto of the Northeast, so our heros were NWA. None of that “I have a dream,” nonsense. [/quote] Those were your flights of fancy in the mist of the bondocks.
[quote]It was all about Malcolm X[/quote] Well, certainly if that were the case, then NWA would have never been your hero. Seems like you just fell in line with the consumeristic side of Afrocentric movement.
Um, me thinks you didn’t even look into what the Gullahs were/are about. Ignorance is bliss over there, huh?
Oh well, I guess that’s about it. Some people feel race, ethnicity and heritage are completely irrelevant to ones identity; others (including me) disagree. Apparently no one will change his/her opinion. No need to discuss further. I might as well return to work.
If you believe that human beings will never be able to get out from under the racial/ethnic/religious umbrella they were born under, than despair is the only word that comes to mind.
You are saying that each and every one of has a “place” that is determined partially by what we look like; and then adding to that the culture nicknacks of the people who look like your parents. And that if we know more about “who we really are” we will be better adjusted people?
We are who we are. If we don’t choose, then people choose for us. I am teaching my son to choose for himself. He can follow whatever he wants to when he’s out from under my wing. If he chooses to learn more about his Taiwanese side, more power to him, or more about his American side for that matter.
Adoptees typically develop a curiosity about their “origins” at some point. Of course they are thinking of their birth parents (and here I should plug “open adoption”–a newish mode of adoption which flourishes around the U.S. west coast, in which birth parents remain in contact with their biological children) but it is not unreasonable to expect a kid who looks East Asian, and is told that he/she is Chinese, to take an interest in China. For parents to anticipate and prepare for this is wise. And if they are wrong, no harm done.
I question the meaning of “racism” because, doesn’t the word assume ill intent? But in this case we are speaking of parents who are trying to do what is best for their child.
And one need not believe that race is all-important in order to acknowledge that as a social fact, it is important. A U.S.-resident kid who appears Chinese will have a different experience than one who appears white (but is in fact from Romania or wherever). A child who is born in some other country (without being “from” there), or in transit between several, will not be constantly reminded of this as he/she grows up.
It certainly doesn’t hurt that Chinese language is a damn sight more useful than Gaelic or Ndebele or many other potential languages of “origin”.
Some people seem to be thinking that “culture” is something that happened in the past, and that it’s possible to raise a child today without imposing any culture on that child, and when the child
Culture is not just the racial/ethnic/religious umbrella. Perhaps more insidious is the effect technology has on culture. I can imagine a child being born at this time and rejecting the conventional notions others have about his/her race and religion, but I can’t imagine them rejecting the internet, the telephone, the car, and many other technological developments that have a cultural effect.
In the past, people were more closely affected by their place of birth. If you grew up in a place where there were a lot of sheep, then you probably ate mutton and wore wool. These days, thanks to the technology that allows globalization, you can drink water from France and eat noodles from Italy. The global influence of technology is the real “cultural nicknacks of the people who look like your parents”. Things like nationality are determined by the country named on your passport.
In this age, labels like “Taiwanese” and “American” can be removed or attached at will. Both Taiwanese and Americans have similarly developed levels of technology: they have more in common with each other now than any taiwanese and american would have had in common 100 or 1000 years ago. So they’re really part of the same culture.
Why do ethnic Koreans in China speak Korean and Mandarin?
Let’s put it this way. If you friend wanted to mingle with Koreans as a Korean, it will never happen now. Whether or not she ever yearned for this is never going to be an issue. Because of the ability to learn language as a native has a pretty small window of opportunity.
But you speak English fluently. You will never be cut off from White English Speaking Culture. You will never have that conflict of “Hey there’s a bunch of people that look like me, I want to talk to them. Oh yeah I only speak Chinese. Back to being the 57 Chinese ethnic minority for me.”
The reason that you participate in the forum is that even will all your years abroad. You seek the companionship of like minded native English speakers.
In the “meat world” that translates to seeking some companionship with people that look a like. It doesn’t have to be exclusive to the point of segregation. But there is that human desire.
Let’s do a social experiment with your son then. Stop teaching him English. If he does speak English make sure he speaks like a FOB. Never let him cross the Pacific. Force him only to speak Chinese. Make sure every aspect of Western culture is eliminated from his life. No more contact with anyone not Han Chinese or aboriginal.
If he grows up well adjusted and is able to hit all his milestones like his Chinese peers, I’m wrong. If he grows up with identity issues that he will never be able to resolve on his own, I’m right.
Hey it’s your kids life. He’ll find happiness some other way even if we screw up this part of his life, right?
My point is this very thing. We already ARE part of the same world culture. So why go out of our way to instill a false sense of culture in adopted children based ONLY on their race and the geographical location they came from?
[quote]
Let’s put it this way. If you friend wanted to mingle with Koreans as a Korean, it will never happen now. Whether or not she ever yearned for this is never going to be an issue. Because of the ability to learn language as a native has a pretty small window of opportunity. [/quote]
It was her choice to study French. WHy deny that? WHy is it better to say, “Go learn to speak like these people because they look like you?”
Why not just tell all the blacks kids in the lunch room to sit together?
[quote]
The reason that you participate in the forum is that even will all your years abroad. You seek the companionship of like minded native English speakers.[/quote]
I rarely find like minded people here! lol And most of the people here come from vastly different geographical locations and (sub)cultures on the Earth and have had vastly different lives than mine. I like talking with them because they are interesting. The ones who aren’t, I don’t.
If you feel you missed out on something Chinese when you were young, I’m sorry to hear that. But as an adult, it should be time to get over it, eh? It’s your choice.
[quote=“Namahottie”][quote=“ac_dropout”] I was in the ghetto of the Northeast, so our heros were NWA. None of that “I have a dream,” nonsense. [/quote] Those were your flights of fancy in the mist of the bondocks.
[quote]It was all about Malcolm X[/quote] Well, certainly if that were the case, then NWA would have never been your hero. Seems like you just fell in line with the consumeristic side of Afrocentric movement.
Um, me thinks you didn’t even look into what the Gullahs were/are about. Ignorance is bliss over there, huh?[/quote]
MLK is respected, but without Malcolm X, MLK is nobody. Someone has to scare the White masses to motivate them to make the change. White Appeasement message like “love and peace” are only effective if there is another voice that say, “I’m going to burn this sh*t to the ground.” NWA was one of those voice.
Sure there is a commercializaton component to the message. But until every white kid in the suburbs is mouthing off those lyrics, why would white adults believe anything is wrong with status quo.
If a Gullah ever came to watch my back when I was getting bum rushed, maybe I think more of them. But they are a fringe of Black urban culture. West Indian immigrants have more influence.
Certainly, ‘growing’ up in a Black neighborhood, you could use much much better example.
