Angry White Americans = Serious Terrorist Threat

What is it about White, Christian US culture that breeds these extremists?

Why do these wacko killers receive so much support from a broad swath of society (ie the new US ambassador to the UN spoke favorably of the bombing of the UN building)?

And why does the US government refuse to acknowledge this local, homegrown problem, instead focusing on a war against those who wear turbans, live in foreign lands and practice other religions and saving all their harsh rhetoric for those foreigners?

[quote] April 9, 2005 Eric Robert Rudolph, the former fugitive who evaded capture in the North Carolina mountains for more than five years, has agreed to plead guilty to bombings that killed two people and injured more than 150 others at abortion clinics and at the 1996 Olympics here, the Department of Justice said on Friday. As part of his plea agreement, Mr. Rudolph revealed the whereabouts of more than 250 pounds of dynamite and of a buried bomb more than twice as powerful as the one that went off here in Centennial Olympic Park. . .

. . . was to be Mr. Rudolph’s first trial, for a 1998 bombing at a Birmingham abortion clinic that killed an off-duty police officer and maimed a nurse. . . . Mr. Rudolph was also charged for bombings outside a family planning clinic and a gay club in Atlanta in 1997. . .

But he fled, evading bloodhounds, heat sensors and even volunteer paramilitary brigades for five years . . . For a time, Mr. Rudolph’s success as a fugitive reframed the conflict, from criminal vs. the law to local boy vs. federal intruders. It made him a celebrated underdog, with T-shirts being sold bearing the phrases “Run Rudolph Run” and "Hide and Seek Champion."[/quote]

nytimes link
[Moderator Note: Please remember to abbreviate long urls to prevent wide-screen distortions.]

[quote]McVeigh may be reviled as the worst terrorist mass murderer in American history by most, but to some he remains a patriot - a warrior unjustly being put to the sword. Undaunted by the weight of prosecution evidence, McVeigh supporters come largely from the underground hate groups which exist right across the length and breadth of the United States.

One of those principal organisations is Aryan Nations, an offshoot of the Ku Klux Klan. During interviews, Timothy McVeigh suggested that much of his inspirations stemmed from the racist thinking and the beliefs of the Aryan Nations group. Now a leader of Aryan Nations has been telling The World Today this morning that not only do they regard McVeigh as a patriot, they say his only failure was not killing enough people. . .[/quote]

abc.net.au/worldtoday/stories/s311111.htm

[color=red]Do you think all that changed after 9/11, and domestic, homegrown US terrorist groups are no longer a threat? Think again[/color].

[quote] Since Sept. 11, the nation’s attention has been focused on possible threats from Islamic terrorists. But home-grown terrorists have been steadily plotting and carrying out attacks in unrelated incidents across the nation, according to federal authorities and two organizations that monitor hate groups.

The people and groups range from white supremacists, anti-government types and militia members to eco-terrorists and people who hate corporations. They include violent anti-abortionists and black and brown nationalists who envision a separate state for blacks and Latinos. And they have been busy.

“Not a lot of attention is being paid to this, because everybody is concerned about the guy in a turban. But there are still plenty of angry, Midwestern white guys out there,” says U.S. Marshals Service chief inspector Geoff Shank. . .

“There’s been a very, very heavy focus nationally on foreign terrorism since 9/11,” says Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center in Montgomery, Ala., which has tracked hate groups since 1971. “The reality is that, meanwhile, domestic terrorism has hummed along at quite a steady clip. It … still poses a very serious threat.”[/quote]

usatoday.com/news/nation/200 … orism_x.ht m

[quote]In May 2003, white supremacists in Texas were caught with a sodium cyanide bomb, other bombs, illegal weapons, hate literature, fake I.D., and chemicals, including hydrochloric acid and nitric acid. In mid-November, three people pleaded guilty to related charges, while seized documents indicate that there are other co-conspirators at large. The feds have served “hundreds of subpoenas across the country,” and the plot has been included in the President’s daily intelligence briefings.

But most of us have never heard about it. The only media that saw fit to report about this terrorist plot within the US were a few newspapers and TV stations in Texas. The Web-based news outlet WorldNetDaily ran a story about it, but Google News shows that there hasn’t been a word in the New York Times, Washington Post, LA Times, CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, or any other big media outlet. Why have the media decided that this is a non-story? It’s hard to say, but we can say with certainty that if Muslims had been caught with these weapons of mass destruction, fake I.D., gas masks, and books on making explosives, it would’ve been front-page news for days. . .[/quote]

thememoryhole.org/terror/tyler-terror.htm

Above are a few photos of some of the 100 bombs, bomb components, machine guns, 500,000 rounds of ammunition and chemical weapons seized from US domestic terrorists in Texas in 2003, as described at the above link.

And, [color=red]in case you

Domestic terrorism vs. foreign terrorism might answer part of your question.

What seems to be true though is that the Bush adminstration IS taking it seriously, even if the press is not. Which is more important?

Pretty quick to dismiss his hypothesis aren’t you TC? Guess that’s jes’ the “cowboy” in you. Lovely graphic tho.

MT, great point. I’d like to know how you respond to the observation that the Bush Asmin. is taking it serously. What is being done, observationally or obviationally, to curb these hate-training erm, seminars?

You know, I feel safer here, with 700+ missiles and a 1,000,000 unlandable red grunts poised to attack than I would living in the states.

Just my feelings on the subject. I will now strive to stave off further IP posts.

[quote=“The Gumper”]Pretty quick to dismiss his hypothesis aren’t you TC? Guess that’s jes’ the “cowboy” in you. Lovely graphic tho.

MT, great point. I’d like to know how you respond to the observation that the Bush Asmin. is taking it serously. What is being done, observationally or obviationally, to curb these hate-training erm, seminars?[/quote]
The Gumper -
1st, sorry to trim your post down in my response. No offense meant.
OK…No quick dismissal, just a comment on the fact that the dots being constructed do not connect.
This is a racist and anti-Christian attack thinly veiled in a self-serving screed about “domestic terrorism” in ther USA.

Now does 'domestic terrorism" exist in the US? Yes indeedy do it does. And it is a large concern of law enforcement there. One of my personal buddies just spent 9 years of his life working on the “Olympic Bomber” case which resulted in the capture and conviction of the mentioned Eric Rudolph. It is only thru dedication and hard-work that this many years did not deter a dedicated group of individuals from following thru on this case.
Also, it must be remembered - In the USA, if you do not break the laws, you have a great deal of personal latitude and freedom.
For example - MT posts pics of a weapon and a selection of books. Is this weapons and the accompanying acessories illegal? I am not sure. Its a question to be sorted out by the LEO’s.
Are the books illegal? Most probably not. Questionable or even obnoxious/disgusting subject matter print is mostly not restricted. These are some of the hard fought freedoms enplace in the US.
This does not mean that he should not be held accountable for his illegal activities. NO WAY am I implying that.
But what it does mean, is that in the US, things that may disgust or even revile, the “average/normal” person, are not xubject to arbitrary persecution.
Thus the continued existence of the ACLU and most lawyers.

to support TC a bit

[quote]What is it about White, Christian US culture that breeds these extremists?

Why do these wacko killers receive so much support from a broad swath of society (ie the new US ambassador to the UN spoke favorably of the bombing of the UN building)?

And why does the US government refuse to acknowledge this local, homegrown problem, instead focusing on a war against those who wear turbans, live in foreign lands and practice other religions and saving all their harsh rhetoric for those foreigners? [/quote]

This is trolling. :slight_smile:

The funny part is that MT himself supplied the link to prove that Bush was doing a lot to fight domestic Terrorism. :blush:

Please supply a link to any evidence showing that even one preacher, pastor or priest in a large US church supported any of the major acts of domestic terrorism in the past 50 years. Unfortunately, there are plenty of Muslim clerics who have supported if not been directly involved in terrorist attacks on the west, Israel and other Islamic groups.

Before this can be discussed any further, you’re going to have to provide solid evidence that a “broad swath” of society actually does support these killers? Strangely, it wasn’t hard to find evidence of support for the 911 attacks in Muslim dominated countries. Even now, Osama bin Laden t-shirts sell quite well in open markets in quite a lot of Muslim countries.

Timothy McVeigh-convicted on multiple murder 1 counts. Sentence-death.
Terry Nichols-convicted for manslaughter and conspiracy to bomb a US federal building. Sentence-life in prison.
Eric Rudolph-in custody and soon to plead guilty.

Yes, I guess the government and US society don’t really give a shit. I’m sure the FBI just got lucky by getting these convictions to stick seeing as how they don’t really care about dealing with domestic terrorism. :unamused:

[quote]Timothy McVeigh-convicted on multiple murder 1 counts. Sentence-death.
Terry Nichols-convicted for manslaughter and conspiracy to bomb a US federal building. Sentence-life in prison.
Eric Rudolph-in custody and soon to plead guilty. [/quote]

IP post foul!

Crime: supplying facts!

Now CUT that out! :slight_smile:

TC questions whether it is illegal for White Christian US terrorists to possess the sodium cyanide bombs, machine guns and other weapons depicted above. Absolutely. I don

from the usa today article:

[quote]The TRAC report gives no conclusive reasons for the reduction in civil rights enforcement but speculates that it could have resulted from federal prosecutors and investigators having spent far more time than in previous years on
terrorism cases
in the aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks.

Civil rights cases made up
a tiny fraction
of the Justice Department’s total of 99,341 criminal prosecutions in 2003.
The study found, however, that only civil rights and environmental prosecutions were down from 1999 to 2003 as the total caseload rose by about 10%. [/quote]

I’m sorry, what were we talking about? Civil rights cases or terrorism?

And your post is not so cleverly edited to misinterpret the facts presented in the article huh?

As per the rules of engagement of this forum:

Your posts are a bunch of lies and lack credibility.

Next time I would suggest reading the ENTIRE article before you chop it up, and please assume that I will do the same.

No, I did no such thing.

[quote=“Tainancowboy”]For example - MT posts pics of a weapon and a selection of books. Is this weapons and the accompanying acessories illegal? I am not sure. Its a question to be sorted out by the LEO’s. [/quote] Hmm…quite at odds with your charcteristic mis-representation of information.

[quote=“mother theresa”]I don

Attacks by wacko gun-toting US Christian “militia” members and the like on homosexuals, minorities, abortion doctors and the like ARE both civil rights cases and acts of terrorism (use of violence to push a political agenda).

No clever editing, no misrepresentation. Feel free to read the entire articles; that’s why I posted the links.

Not true, but I’m sorry to educate you about White Christian terrorists; it’s not just the towel-headed ferriners.

Have a nice day.

:slight_smile:

[quote]
No clever editing, no misrepresentation. Feel free to read the entire articles; that’s why I posted the links.

Not true, but I’m sorry to educate you about White Christian terrorists; it’s not just the towel-headed ferriners.

Have a nice day.

:slight_smile:[/quote]

[quote]Study: Civil rights enforcement falls
WASHINGTON (AP)

[quote=“Mother Theresa”]So I

[quote=“puiwaihin”][quote=“Mother Theresa”]So I

None of that has touched me. None of that has touched anyone I know.
Is that true of the average Iraqi? A lot of the terrorism in Muslim countries affects the law-abiding Muslims living there.

So, sensational headlines about terrorists doesn’t hit home with me. There’s always some idiot blowing up innocent people. As long as my government catches and prosecutes them when it happens I have nothing to complain about.

Why aren’t you relating personal experiences about these terrorist attacks? Where are your friends who have been victimized, or have friends who are victimized?

I can read. And I’m aware of people going to extremes for abortion, animal rights, gay-rights, and because of racism. When they hurt others in our society, no matter what their political motivation, I see them get punished. Nobody is harboring them and hiding them from justice.

So what?
Ashcroft and Bush are politicians. Racists are voters, too. Not all people who attend Bob Jones university are racists. I’m sure Ashcroft and Bush have courted voters from the exact opposite extreme as well (perhaps unsuccessfully). There’s no logical connection between this and our discussion.

All I care about is whether or not the law is being executed or not.

If you can show me that Bush is actually interfering with the execution of law I’ll gladly support his impeachment. (As it stands, I’d just support a no-confidence vote since I think his handling of international affairs has been the worst since whoever was before George Washington.)
edit: deleted the word “don’t”, I mean I do!
But you’ll have to do better than that study you showed about lower hate crimes prosecution. That’s a post hoc argument. You need to establish correlation, as it is it is as easily coincidence as causality.

Television evangelists? They hardly represent America. These guys are as much politicians as Clinton was. No offence to anyone who believes these two… Anyway…

How does that promote violence? They say these people are secularizing America. Nothing they say here can be construed to promote violence. They want people to disagree with the other side. Big deal. You hear worse from the Exectuive Yuan here in Taiwan.

[quote]From Jerry Falwell:
“If you’re not a born-again Christian, you’re a failure as a human being.”
“AIDS is the wrath of a just God against homosexuals.”"
And from Pat Robertson:
…you have accepted the headship of a man, your husband… and the husband is the head of the wife, and that’s the way it is, period."
“You say you’re supposed to be nice to the … Nonsense. I don’t have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist.” [/quote]
Sounds like ignorance and dogma. But are they saying, “it’s ok to hit homosexuals, God won’t punish you”, or even worse, “if you are killed trying to blow up abortionist hospitals or gays you will be a martyr and be with God that very day”?

No. Not at all.

They are entitled to their opinions, and their opinions are just as valid as yours. I don’t agree with much that they say, but they aren’t inciting violence.

[quote]“God told the Israelites to kill them all - men, women and children, to destroy them. And that seems to be a terrible thing to do. Is it? … So, God, in love, took away a small number that he might not have to take away a large number.”

–Pat Robertson, May 6, 1985, trying his best to rationalize genocide[/quote]
From my point of view, when God says kill whoever that’s rationalization enough. I actually agree with him here. If you assume God commanded it then it was the right thing to do. If God didn’t command it then those responsible commited genocide.

That’s the closest you’ve come to showing some of the most sensational popular evangelicals trying to promote violence for Christianity. But even you recognized the intent-- to justify what already occured in the Bible. That bit of history is hard for some people to swallow.

So? How’s this relevant? At best you’re showing Pat Robertson is not the Christian he’s supposed to be. But, even that’s a stretch. I have no faith in televsion evangelists and if they associate with the dregs of society it has no bearing on this argument.

Do you support violence against racists? If you say racists are wrong, ignorant, etc. and then someone goes out and kills a few to send a message are you responsible?

I think homosexuality is wrong. I think racism is wrong. Can I not express my belief that these things are wrong in no uncertain terms? If I do this does this mean I want other people to commit acts of violence?

You’re not making a convincing argument at all.

Find me a statement where they say “it’s ok to hurt X type of people” and they aren’t slammed for it in public. Find a memo from the White House encouraging law enforcement to quit prosecuting hate crimes. Until you do that your comparison of the White American Terrorist to the Muslim terrorist sounds like the same sort of reactionary counter-prejudice that’s become so popular for people to rant about.

Excellent post, puiwaihin!

MT I eat more fruit cakes per year than you have brought up about US grown terrorists.

So you have a Rambo in the forest, and nutty mathematician, and a few other nut cases spread out over several years. This does not help your case. There are always disgruntled people in every society.

Where’s the Mc D’s bomber and the rice bombers in Taiwan? Are they terrorists too?

[quote=“Satellite TV”]MT I eat more fruit cakes per year than you have brought up about US grown terrorists.

So you have a Rambo in the forest, and nutty mathematician, and a few other nut cases spread out over several years. This does not help your case. There are always disgruntled people in every society.

Where’s the Mc D’s bomber and the rice bombers in Taiwan? Are they terrorists too?[/quote]

Terrorism’s not as funny as you make it out to be. According to FBI statistics, law enforcement agencies reported 5,517 hate-crime offenses against persons in the US, which accounted for 63.3 percent of reported hate crimes in 2003 (others are hate crimes against property or society).

ncjrs.org/hate_crimes/facts.html

Someone criticized me earlier for referring to hate-crimes when this thread started out about terrorism. The thing is, many crimes are both. A hate crime is when the victim is singled out due to race, gender, sexuality, etc. A terrorist act is when violence is committed to further some agenda. When some wacko skinhead nazis burn down a synagogue or beat a black kid to death to demonstrate white supremacy, that would qualify as both. Regrettably the US has lots of racist organizations that commit lots of terrorist acts, such as the idiots shown below:

The subject’s not so funny if you’re black or hispanic, or gay or lesbian, or persian or persian looking, or any kind of a foreigner, who was one of the 5,517 victims who was singled out for abuse by such terrorists in the US in 2003 or was one of their victims in subsequent years. If you’re a white hetero you’re less likely to notice the problem, but thousands of others aren’t so lucky.

I don’t have time to discuss it much further now, but I believe abundant evidence shows that terrorist hate crimes in the US against gays, blacks, muslims and arabs have been on the rise in the past couple of years and some attribute that in part to Attorney General Ashcroft being a racist himself, with a history of supporting racist policies, organizations (the CCC) and publications (he praised a racist confederate journal that idolizes David Duke and claims Lincoln’s murder was a good thing), and therefore not putting the necessary determination and resources into fighting these serious domestic terrorist crimes.

Looks like MT is going to have his work cut out for him. Now, he wants us to label every honor killing as terrorism against women, every single act where women are beaten and prevented from getting an education or forced to marry against their will must now be counted as a hate crime and terrorism to boot.

Every act of female circumcision will also be included as will forced child labor. When Muslims are not allowed to marry into other families or convert to other religions or when they are not allowed to meet and are beaten for doing so and even for the suspicion of doing so then all of these acts will now count as hate crimes and terrorism.

Should be quite a catalog by the time that we are finished. I wonder if it will pass the 5,000 mark? What do you think?

So the final message? The West and the Muslim Worlds are morally equivalent and we cannot really say that one is better than the other. After all, there will always be “good” Muslims and Arabs that will mean that we cannot say that the ENTIRE system is bad therefore no value judgement can or should be made. Right?

Sorry MT but were you ever going to get back to me on my list of questions:

  1. Have you been to the Middle East? If so where? Ditto for any Muslim countries? How long were you there?

  2. Do you support rights and protection of those rights for women, children, gays, religious minorities, minorities?

  3. Do you support education for girls? women?

  4. Do you support equal opportunity for the above groups?

I will be waiting patiently for your answer though I doubt it will be forthcoming. heee heee heee

Apparently the argument is that the more time you spend in the Middle East the more profound and objective your insights on the issues there become.

Of course the opposite is also possible: the more partisan and subjective you become because you’re surrounded by so many hardliners with inflexible opinions written in blood.

We should look into this more. I see some interesting possibilities here. For brevity’s sake and to keep the conversation moving along at a productive clip I propose we call the first thesis the “99 Bottles of Beer on the Wall” thesis and the second the “Osama bin Laden” thesis.