Rather let us look at an objective set of standards such as women’s rights, freedom, economic and social development, education etc and then rate systems accordingly.
Let us also look at who actively fosters and supports terrorism and where terrorism occurs, is it in fact punished or are the terrorists aided and abetted not only by the system of justice, government and administration but by the residents of those countries as well.
There are objective standards. We can and should use them. Failure to do so for policitally correct reasons is of no benefit to anyone. Ask the Afghanis, Iraqis and others. We not the politically correct left are their true allies and they know it. Likewise, the kneejerk liberal left has been openly courted by Osama and the Islamofascists. They learned how to string the Noam Chomsky crowd along when they saw the lessons of Vietnam. They learned them very well and regrettably we with our well-meaning Carters and MTs are still not learning the lessons of history and therefore are doomed to repeat them.
This thread is interesting. What on earth is it that makes the far-right extremists so full of violence and leaves the far-left extremists eating organic foods? I mean, what on earth could explain how it is that everybody from Coulter and Liddy on down through Hal Turner could be the cheerleaders for far-right wacko killers, and yet the worst thing anybody can find on the “left” is Michael Moore.
Now, it might well be dangerous getting between Michael Moore and a cheeseburger, but I’m wondering what on earth made this whole thing so lop-sided. It would appear that the only violent leftists remaining in the world are safely (for the rest of us) running about Nepal.
There’s a few good quotes posted up in the thread on “extreme rights attacks on judges”.
Coulter has the famous quote about how the only thing wrong with McVeigh is that he didn’t go on and blow up the NYTimes. The “only thing”?? What about that Oklahoma federal building thing?
Liddy was famous for his quotes on shooting federal agents in the head if they ever come to your home.
Hal Turner (regular guest on Fox with a big radio show of his own) has been trying to sweep out some of the stuff he had on his website urging the death of Judge Lefkow in Chicago. Of course, much of this stuff can be found in the cache versions.
Fred, I have no idea what you’re talking about. Apparently you posted your reply in the wrong thread, because this discussion didn’t concern muslims or islamofascists or any other group you’re accustomed to bashing. If you’ll read the title of the thread and go back and look at my posts, you’ll see I was discussing angry white american terrorists and was questioning what it is about US culture that breeds such extremism. Is it the churches and bible schools, the religious leaders, the politicians? Is it the biblical incitements to hate that I quoted on the previous page? Why so much intolerance and hatred in white american culture and what can be done in response to this serious terrorist threat?
According to my dictionary, “terrorism” means “use of force or threats to demoralize, intimidate and subjugate, esp such use as a political weapon or policy.” Below is the subject of this thread, Fred, deal with it.
[quote]Imprisoned white supremacist James Tyler Williams pleaded guilty to two counts of first degree murder . . . Williams, 32, admitted to helping his older brother, Benjamin Matthew Williams, kill Gary Matson and Winfield Mowder, a gay couple. . . Williams, who said he was following instructions from God to execute homosexuals, also pleaded guilty to hate crime charges. According to a statement released by his attorney, Williams said that homosexuals are subject to execution “for the preservation of society.”
Williams has been incarcerated since November 2001, when he and his brother received lengthy prison sentences for setting fire to three synagogues in Sacramento, California, and a building housing an abortion clinic in 1999. . . Hate literature found at the site of the Sacramento fires blamed Jews for NATO’s activities in Kosovo. Prosecutors described the brothers as known extremists who followed hate groups such as World Church of the Creator and Aryan Nations.[/quote]
[quote]Hate groups around the United States are using the recent terrorist attacks to promote their causes. White supremacists, Christian Identity adherents, neo-Nazis, conspiracy theorists, skinhead groups, and other extremists are citing the events of Sept. 11 (and since) to recruit new members - especially young people. . .
In its recent report, “State of Hate: White Nationalism in the Midwest,” the Center for New Community, a faith-based human rights organization in Chicago, details 338 such groups across the Midwest, many of which are actively recruiting young people.
This includes 95 neo-Nazi and racist skinhead groups, a 30 percent increase over the past two years. Pierce claims that his National Alliance has seen a 50 percent increase in website visits over the past year. . .
Even before the recent attacks, such groups were seen as a danger to domestic security.
“On the national level, formal right-wing hate groups, such as the World Church of the Creator and the Aryan Nations, represent a continuing[color=red] terrorist threat[/color],” former FBI Director Louis Freeh told the US Senate Select Committee on Intelligence last May. . .[/quote]
[quote]An Egyptian-born shopkeeper has been buried in Los Angeles, another victim in a spate of suspected hate crimes against people of Arab appearance following last week’s terror attacks. Adel Karas was a 48-year-old father of three who had run a shop in a Los Angeles suburb for the past two decades. He was shot dead there on Saturday. . .
Mr Karas’ death was not the first. A 49-year-old Sikh petrol station owner was shot dead in Arizona "for no other apparent reason than that he was dark-skinned and wore a turban", said the county attorney.
In Dallas, a Pakistani Muslim was also killed in an attack that was apparently racially motivated.
Washington’s Council on American-Islamic Relations has recorded more than 350 incidents of anti-Muslim harassment, while the United Sikhs in Service of America lists nearly 200 examples.[/quote]
[quote]February 14, 2005 White supremacist groups around the US are moving aggressively to recruit new members by promoting their violent, racist ideologies on billboards, in radio commercials and in leaflets tossed on suburban driveways.
Watching with mounting alarm, civil rights monitors say these tactics stake out a much bolder, more public role for many hate groups, which are trying to shed their image as shadowy extremists and claim more mainstream support. Watchdog groups fear increased violence from these organisations as they grow. . .
Civil rights monitors consider the National Alliance, which was founded in the 1970s, one of the most virulent neo-Nazi organisations in the country. . . The FBI’s senior counter-terrorism expert told Congress in 2002 that the National Alliance represented a [color=red]"terrorist threat[/color]".[/quote]
Will you tell me what it is about white Christian US culture that you believe is responsible for breeding this culture of hatred and terror, why are Christians and Republicans so opposed to hate crime legislation, and why does our society make only token efforts to deal with this plague?
[quote=“Mother Theresa”] Why so much intolerance and hatred in white American culture?
Will you tell me what it is about white Christian US culture that you believe is responsible for breeding this culture of hatred and terror, and why does our society make only token efforts to deal with this plague?[/quote]
I thought we were talking about terrorists and not just racist murderers.
Perhaps you should also know that the US Gov has also murdered innocents in their crusades against those who think differently… :raspberry:
Of course we could always revert to the Nazi methods of dealing with the plague as you fondly put it :fume: … just make sure you’re not tagged by mistake MT
[quote=“Satellite TV”][quote=“Mother Theresa”] Why so much intolerance and hatred in white American culture?
Will you tell me what it is about white Christian US culture that you believe is responsible for breeding this culture of hatred and terror, and why does our society make only token efforts to deal with this plague?[/quote]
I thought we were talking about terrorists and not just racist murderers. [/quote]
Not just racist murderers? Tell that to the victim’s family.
Anyway, that’s my point exactly. The politicians and media have led us to believe that “terrorist” = “crazy muslim from some foreign land,” when in fact the FBI’s director and FBI terrorist expert point out in the quotes I put in red above the common sense fact which is too often overlooked – that domestic US hate groups are also terrorist organizations (they kill, maim and terrorize people in order to further their extremist political aims).
Statistics show that hundreds of such extremist organizations exist in the US, they commit thousands of terrorist acts each year, including many brutal murders, and their numbers are growing. So I question what it is that makes the US a breeding ground for these extremist terrorist organizations and their brutal policies of hatred, violence and intolerance.
I would have to guess that so many extremists exist in the US because of our relatively open borders and immigration policy and our relatively tolerant society in terms of racial mixing and sexual orientation. Some people simply hate this and the consequences of having to deal with people who are different from themselves.
I doubt that all of these extremist people who hate others who differ from themselves are Christian, or even white. I’ll bet many even vote for the Democratic party’s candidate in elections.
So, I wouldn’t expect that Christianity is the cause of any extremism in the US. Otherwise, I could reasonably expect my parents to either be extremists or to at least support and sympathize with extremists.
No, I think the reason that some extremists exist in the US is 1) that our borders are open and 2) that in general, we are a very tolerant society.
People who cannot tolerate other people who differ from them will find any excuse to dislike them, be it one “ism” or another. Unfortunately, such people exist in every culture and nation.
Should the US close its borders and segregate its population along ethnic/racial lines in order to appease those who cannot tolerate people who look or think differently? Of course not.
A free and tolerant society with education and enforcement of the rule of law is the best way to deal with that segment of society that hates.
MT,
Every society has people that hate and will hurt others because of it. Why do you always feel the need to single out one? What did the US do to you that makes you so angry and resentful? You talk about peace and love and justice and all that, but aren’t you being just as bigoted and prejudiced as the people you condemn? There have been an increase in racially-motivated crimes in Europe, such “forward-thinking” and “liberal” countries as France and Germany … white people have been beaten up in Taiwan on occasion for looking at someone’s girl friend the wrong way. People hate and people kill everywhere.
The FBI and other law enforcement groups at both the Federal, State and local level have been addressing the ‘Domestic Terrorist’ groups since at least 1977. Here is an interesting testimony before Congress & FBI regarding one such extremist domestic terror group and its roots.
[quote]Congressional Testimony Testimony of James F. Jarboe, Domestic Terrorism Section Chief, Counterterrorism Division, FBI
Before the House Resources Committee, Subcommittee on Forests and Forest Health
February 12, 2002 “The Threat of Eco-Terrorism”
Good morning Chairman McInnis, Vice-Chairman Peterson, Congressman Inslee and Members of the Subcommittee. I am pleased to have the opportunity to appear before you and discuss the threat posed by eco-terrorism, as well as the measures being taken by the FBI and our law enforcement partners to address this threat.
The FBI divides the terrorist threat facing the United States into two broad categories, international and domestic. International terrorism involves violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or any state, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or any state. Acts of international terrorism are intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, influence the policy of a government, or affect the conduct of a government. These acts transcend national boundaries in terms of the means by which they are accomplished, the persons they appear intended to intimidate, or the locale in which perpetrators operate.
Domestic terrorism is the unlawful use, or threatened use, of violence by a group or individual based and operating entirely within the United States (or its territories) without foreign direction, committed against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.
During the past decade we have witnessed dramatic changes in the nature of the terrorist threat. In the 1990s, right-wing extremism overtook left-wing terrorism as the most dangerous domestic terrorist threat to the country. During the past several years, special interest extremism, as characterized by the Animal Liberation Front (ALF) and the Earth Liberation Front (ELF), has emerged as a serious terrorist threat. Generally, extremist groups engage in much activity that is protected by constitutional guarantees of free speech and assembly. Law enforcement becomes involved when the volatile talk of these groups transgresses into unlawful action. The FBI estimates that the ALF/ELF have committed more than 600 criminal acts in the United States since 1996, resulting in damages in excess of 43 million dollars.
Special interest terrorism differs from traditional right-wing and left-wing terrorism in that extremist special interest groups seek to resolve specific issues, rather than effect widespread political change. Special interest extremists continue to conduct acts of politically motivated violence to force segments of society, including the general public, to change attitudes about issues considered important to their causes. These groups occupy the extreme fringes of animal rights, pro-life, environmental, anti-nuclear, and other movements. Some special interest extremists – most notably within the animal rights and environmental movements – have turned increasingly toward vandalism and terrorist activity in attempts to further their causes.
Since 1977, when disaffected members of the ecological preservation group Greenpeace formed the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society and attacked commercial fishing operations by cutting drift nets, acts of “eco-terrorism” have occurred around the globe. The FBI defines eco-terrorism as the use or threatened use of violence of a criminal nature against innocent victims or property by an environmentally-oriented, subnational group for environmental-political reasons, or aimed at an audience beyond the target, often of a symbolic nature.b[/b] fbi.gov/congress/congress02/jarboe021202.htm[/quote]
This group has been quite active with bombings and destruction in the southwest, northwest and several other areas in the USA.
From the Council on Foreign relations website. This is an extremely good resource on factual info regarding ‘USA Domestic Terrorist’ groups and their tentacles strecthing in some cases around the world.
[quote]Terrorism Q & A - American Militant Extremists United States, radicals
What is right-wing domestic terrorism?
Terrorism motivated by opposition to federal taxation and regulation, the United Nations, other international organizations, and the U.S. government itself, as well as by a hatred of racial and religious minorities. This type of terrorism, which has roots in the activities of white supremacist groups such as the Ku Klux Klan and antigovernment groups, flourished in the 1980s. FBI officials say right-wing militants
I think it’s a global phenomenon. People are retreating into absolutes because the rate of change in the world is accelerating, shock-absorbing distances between us are decreasing and, most importantly, the old order is disintegrating faster than anything can replace it.
Many people respond to this future shock by clinging to the most absolute thing they can find, pursuing it in the most absolute way they can: Christian, Jewish, Islamic scripture, Nazi militarism, liberalism, conservatism, “anti-terrorism”, animal rights . . .
Consequently we’re in an age of polarization in which people scream, shoot and curse at each other rather than engage each other because there is so little common ground. This antagonism starts to feed on itself and people retreat further into absolutes and absolute behaviour as a way of dealing with the increasing threat level and cacophony of disagreement.
The ranks of extremists are growing as people “in the middle” slowly slip into their mindset as a way to cope and survive. This, I think, is the phenomenon that’s confounding Mother Theresa. How can apparently decent people tolerate such obviously wrong-headed absolutism which causes so much harm and destruction? The answer of course is because we’re all being sucked in the direction of one absolute or another in our cultures as we all struggle with our own future shock and how to deal with it.
spook -
I agree with about 75% - 80% of your post.
Area of contention -
They don’t. This is a BS contention from the git go. It has been shown repeatedly that this is not true. To parrot this tripe is to give it credence and legitamatcy. And it is deserving of neither.
As the population of each country grows, the numbers of the various subsets/demographic groups grow. Unfortunately the radicals/extremists will grow also. Its simple math. But nowhere, excepting areas where the radical/extremist groups are state sanctioned, is tolerating or condoning in any way these groups.
Its a false premise.
I see your point Spook and that is why I wish to stress again that we must stick with objective universal standards of behavior. Either you are for or against women’s rights. It is that simple. Either you are for or against protecting the rights of different racial and religious groups and even those of different sexual orientation. It is that simple. Where are those rights protected? Where are they not protected? No one can 100 percent prevent acts of violence against groups and individuals but they can ensure that they are punished and that speech inciting violence against those groups is not allowed. WHERE is this happening? WHERE is it NOT happening?
I really do understand MT because I have seen how those types of schools he no doubt attended functioned. I have seen how religion was disparaged and how multiculturalism was raised to the highest level of “good.” Living in some anonymous suburb in northern California where everyone else was from somewhere else and there was little in terms of established community life, what does one do to be “good” (a basic psychological need)? How does one establish an identity? Well, it would appear that most become excessively critical of their own society to prove their “tolerance” and “understanding” of the Other, especially when their understanding of the Other is extremely limited and highly superficial. It is a lot easier to do so than to make the effort to develop a thorough understanding of justice, which is by the very nature of the world we live in, imperfect. So, given that it can never be perfect, can it then be said that justice can never be good at all? That seems to be the answer that you will get on the left more often than not.
Again, this idea that White Supremicists are Republicans is laughable to me. Most of these whacko groups were extremely anti-Bush I. Why would they then support his son? Remember that the KKK was a splinter of the Democrat Party. Ask Byrd about that? Also remember that the Irish in America were funding terrorist groups in Ireland sort of like the Saudis are doing for their particular groups today. Where is the outrage? Why have not these two “senators” been hounded out of office? Let’s not even talk about Chappaquidick…
As to the violence, I recall the anti-globalization protesters who mobbed Seattle a few years ago. Similar activities have taken place wherever the World Bank or world leaders have gotten together. Almost all of these are in fact leftwing.
Final comment: MT, I challenge you to study justice, morality, and determine first whether you believe that women and children have rights. When you have gotten past this moral confusion, then perhaps it will be easier for you to determine that while justice is imperfect, which societies in fact do tend to support the kind of moral objectives that you in fact support. I wish you luck on your efforts to determine whether such people should in fact have rights and that they should in fact be protected. I believe that minorities, women, children, gays, other religious groups etc. should have the same rights that everyone in our society does and that all should have the same responsibilities. I believe that our society offers those to a very large extent. I believe that we can compare ourselves to others or should I say Others and determine that in fact our society does better. I am sorry this is so difficult for you to understand or accept but perhaps more frequent travel or study would be of assistance? Education is the key. Let’s unlock that door of multi-culti ignorance.
Thank you Tigerman for the recent thoughtful comments, which led to further thoughtful comments from others.
As for your comment, skeptic yank, I’m wondering what it is about this thread that you perceive as racist.
Was it my posting articles about members of neo-nazi and aryan nations type hate groups that brutalize people based on race, religion and sexual orientation?
Was it my questioning what is it about white, Christian US society that breeds such extremism?
If so, is such a question any more or less racist than all the threads pointing out the evils of arab/muslim society and questioning what it is about arab/muslim society that breeds such extremism?
Are the comments in this thread any more or less racist than comments such as the following:
Puiwaihin, thank you for the astute comment. We will educate this thread yet.
So based on the quotes that you have provided MT, are you saying that most Muslim societies do not oppress women? Would you care to supply some statistics on that?
Are you saying that jihad is not part of Islam? Are you saying that jihad was not something that is part of Muslim history? Are you saying that it is okay to criticize the atrocities committed by the Christians 1,000 years ago during the Crusades, but okay to deny that “spreading the faith” resulted in far more wars over a far greater expanse of territory (with regard to Islam?). So it is okay to bring up the Inquisition and these atrocities but not to talk about how people are murdered today in the Muslim world if they try to convert to other religions?
What exactly are your standards? Do you believe in women’s rights or don’t you? If you do, then what are the objective standards that you are going to use to measure whether women have rights or not? Would you like to be a woman living in the Middle East today? If so where and where would you not want to live? Simple questions. Can you, dare you, answer them?
