the second. definitely the second.
little john howard’s sole option is “1955, here we come, white australia policy: let me get some blackfella to polish that up for ya”. spit polish your boots too, sir?
ah, for the simple days when the abo’s knew their place and the pork roast on sunday had perfect crackling, every time.
“Please explain?”
[quote=“Hobbes”][quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]There was almost an enviable and simple honesty in South Africa’s apartheid, unlike the lie of equality still promulgated in the likes of Australia.
HG[/quote]
By the “lie of equality” being promulgated in Australia, do you mean that the true governerment policy is, in fact, to promote inequality, or that the government is simply not adopting the policies that you would in order to achieve equality. In other words, do you think that the “lie” is “Racial equality exists in Australia” or “Racial equality is the goal of the Australian government”?[/quote]
The lie is in both. As for my own preference, I can see the government’s pickle. In an increasingly litigious world you do not want to completely overturn terra nullius, or its legacy in anything but empty rhetoric. All the more so in a “vacant land” full of increasingly rare resources. It is simple modern Machiavelli. Sorry and all that it implies is impossibe in Australia. Howard as a shrewd former law clerk with a an old world disdain for anyone of colour understands this implicitly.
HG
Oh no. I disagree entirely. I think that the benefits of living separately from some groups are very salutory. Depends on whom we are referring to, eh? terrorists? criminals? lazy, disrespectful drunken yobs? The list goes on. That is precisely why there are private clubs and gated communities. No, the desire to and benefits of living separately are immense and well-known and many people are willing to pay a lot of money for precisely that.[/quote]
Tip toeing around the real issue/topic, I see. Do you agree with SJ’s statement about the Apartheid or not? Is it wrongfully vilified or not? Sounds like you are saying it is not wrongfully vilified.
Well said lurkky. Been reading a few of your posts lately, and I must say, your opinions are generally very agreeable. Hence the need to tip toe around your replies/posts sometimes. 
Due to asymetric speech restrictions on forumosa (“racist” comments–whatever this may mean–are banned, anti-white ones are not) I find myself unable to fully express my views here.
For those who view “racism” as the apogee of human evil, I think that many of you are simply ignorant. Here are a few links about South African farm invasions, and the general situation of the Afrikaners today. (Warning: The first contains graphic photos.)
worldnetdaily.com/news/article.a … E_ID=23973
worldnetdaily.com/news/artic … E_ID=53830
rense.com/general29/silence.htm
amren.com/mtnews/archives/20 … _black.php
You will notice that some of these come from “racist” or conservative sources. Unfortunately, the liberals no longer seem interested. Perhaps someone will show me wrong, and post some relevant links representing that end of the spectrum.
Having viewed these, what practical steps would you suggest to relieve the suffering of the Afrikaner people? (Or do they deserve their fate?)
Some theoretical questions for your consideration:
Is there any essential moral difference between apartheid, and the partition of various states (India/Pakistan, Israel/Palestine the former Yugoslavia) on ethnic bases? Granted, the former Bantustans were much too small (others were going to be established) but is it necessarily evil to wish to live apart from another race or ethnicity (especially in cases where there are enormous practical costs from living together in one country)? Some people think that it is evil to grant different levels of rights to different people, but isn’t this the basis of all nation-states?
Under what circumstances are people from different identity groups most likely to be able to live together happily? Can you think of relevant characteristics of the groups themselves? And what proportions or percentages are most promising? (If anyone has not yet discovered La Griffe du Lion, I heartily recommend it: lagriffedulion.f2s.com/2048.htm )
Has South Africa actually experienced a rise in violent crime, or is this an illusion caused by lack of attention given to black communities during the apartheid era? (Be sure not to overlook Zulu/Xhosa communal violence.) Is South Africa better-governed today? In what ways are blacks, coloureds, and whites of various descriptions better or worse off? Are whites necessary to South Africa’s prosperity?
Screaming Jesus, the best way to bring the morality of this issue into sharpest focus is by imagining yourself living in a society which regarded you as second class and wanted to pen you up out of the way somewhere. You may never have had an experience like that so it may be hard to imagine but the fact that it’s hard to imagine would tell you how little you really understand the issue.
The answer to the dilemma you pose is a transition period. In South Africa, the Middle East, Northern Ireland – anywhere widely disparate cultures are in conflict over the land and its resources – the only ultimately fair solution is equal sharing of and access to the national resources. Could it ever be fair if someone denied you those rights in the land of your birth?
It was a mistake for South Africa to integrate precipitously because the shock and disruptions are too great – which you rightly note. A better solution would have been a long transition period to full integration in which clear progress was being made towards an equal society. White South Africans and the world community would have helped black South Africans train, grow and become fully enfranchised citizens and used passage into general white South African society and its opportunities as an incentive.
Perpetuating apartheid is a false solution.
Northern Ireland??? Yep. Lots of “widely disparate cultures” there…they’re always arguing over who’s the best: U2 or The Cranberries.
Northern Ireland??? Yep. Lots of “widely disparate cultures” there…they’re always arguing over who’s the best: U2 or The Cranberries.[/quote]
You never answered my question as to what your views are on the apartheid system in South Africa.
Northern Ireland??? Yep. Lots of “widely disparate cultures” there…they’re always arguing over who’s the best: U2 or The Cranberries.[/quote]
You never answered my question as to what your views are on the apartheid system in South Africa.[/quote]
I didn’t much care for it…but I care for shirkers even less.
Now…a question for you…did the South African government refuse to let blacks leave South Africa? Did they move to Northern Ireland? 
Northern Ireland??? Yep. Lots of “widely disparate cultures” there…they’re always arguing over who’s the best: U2 or The Cranberries.[/quote]
You never answered my question as to what your views are on the apartheid system in South Africa.[/quote]
I didn’t much care for it…but I care for shirkers even less.
Now…a question for you…did the South African government refuse to let blacks leave South Africa? Did they move to Northern Ireland? [/quote]
I don’t think anybody much cared for it. Do you think the apartheid system was unjust?
I don’t understand the point of your question. Is it a serious question or a bungled attempt at red herring fallacy?
[quote=“spook”]
I don’t understand the point of your question. Is it a serious question or a weak attempt at red herring fallacy?[/quote]
Spook…you brought up Northern Ireland in a ridiculous attempt to make a point. If you don’t know what you’re talking about, why don’t you just shut up and sit back. Do they give honorable discharges for sitting back?
But…yeah…it was a serious question, did the South African governemnt stop blacks from leaving? A simple yes/no/I don’t know will do.
[quote=“Doctor Evil”][quote=“spook”]
I don’t understand the point of your question. Is it a serious question or a weak attempt at red herring fallacy?[/quote]
Spook…you brought up Northern Ireland in a ridiculous attempt to make a point. If you don’t know what you’re talking about, why don’t you just shut up and sit back. Do they give honorable discharges for sitting back?
But…yeah…it was a serious question, did the South African governemnt stop blacks from leaving? A simple yes/no/I don’t know will do.[/quote]
I don’t know. I don’t think so.
Do you think the apartheid system was unjust?
[quote=“spook”]
I don’t know. I don’t think so.[/quote]
Next question. What does Northern Ireland have to do with anything?
I’m going to steal that line. Fair notice.
Interesting that someone would get incensed and abusive because you ask them what their opinion of apartheid is in an “apartheid wrongly vilified?” thread. Do you think there’s possibly some sort of inner conflict going on there?
Apartheid was unjust. Nobody is seriously trying to defend rampant police brutality, extrajudicial killings, or ghettos. But it is hypocritical of the international press to spend so many years exposing apartheid but say nary a word about the 1800+ murders of white farmers, several thousand injuries, and hundreds of white women and girls raped (including a 4 year old) by blacks trying to scare off the whites so they can take their land. There seems to be a double standard. I think it was bobepine who earlier said something like “you reap what you sow.” Is this the general attitude? Is it OK for the blacks to invade Boer farms and reapportion the land?
Spook, would you consider the former Rhodesia’s transition to black rule well-managed?
I don’t know why people object to a “white Australia policy.” I mean, no one thinks it odd that Japan has a “Japanese Japan” policy (though some noise is occasionally heard about the ethnic Koreans there).
On consideration, I think the apartheid system was indeed flawed–because it failed to really keep the various groups “apart.” Many perceived injustices of the system arose from this. If they could have “outsourced” their need for cheap labor, or had they succeeded in giving blacks separate nationalities, then the system would have been indistinguishable from that of various Western countries.
One of the problems with the concept of “justice” is that it implies that decisions should be made according to abstract criteria rather than compelling personal ties. This perspective is more common among white cultures, and can be a serious weakness. If South African whites didn’t take such concepts so seriously, they might still be in control of their fates. (Their new overlords appear to lack this idealistic strain.)
If I am poor, then it is in my interest to say that “justice” demands that the rich share with me. If I am rich, it is in my interest to say that what’s mine is mine. I think there is no justice, there is only power. South African whites neglected to use their power, though they might still have a chance.
[quote=“Screaming Jesus”]Spook, would you consider the former Rhodesia’s transition to black rule well-managed?
I don’t know why people object to a “white Australia policy.” I mean, no one thinks it odd that Japan has a “Japanese Japan” policy (though some noise is occasionally heard about the ethnic Koreans there).
On consideration, I think the apartheid system was indeed flawed–because it failed to really keep the various groups “apart.” Many perceived injustices of the system arose from this. If they could have “outsourced” their need for cheap labor, or had they succeeded in giving blacks separate nationalities, then the system would have been indistinguishable from that of various Western countries.
One of the problems with the concept of “justice” is that it implies that decisions should be made according to abstract criteria rather than compelling personal ties. This perspective is more common among white cultures, and can be a serious weakness. If South African whites didn’t take such concepts so seriously, they might still be in control of their fates. (Their new overlords appear to lack this idealistic strain.)
If I am poor, then it is in my interest to say that “justice” demands that the rich share with me. If I am rich, it is in my interest to say that what’s mine is mine. I think there is no justice, there is only power. South African whites neglected to use their power, though they might still have a chance.[/quote]
“i dont know why people object to a white australia policy”??
mind, boggling
japan is not a relevant comparison and for reasons so obvious i’ll not go into them…(ok ok japan is an ethno-centric culture with the inherent racism this implies…“white” is not a culture, its not even really a race, therefore you cant argue australia is likewise “ethno-centric”…its just misguided as regards its identity 
)
mind you if we could ship all the whites in S. Africa directly to Australia it might be a neatish solution…
but seriously in this day and age exclusionist policies based on skin color are as dead as some dodos…
It’s clear there’s a double standard in conflicts between advantaged and disadvantaged cultures. There’s a masochistic tendency among liberal whites in the west to “suffer” for past sins and so to disregard the legitimate rights of formerly advantaged peoples. That’s not healthy for anyone.
As far as Rhodesia goes, the reservoir of hostility and historic sense of injustice and the gulf between rural African culture and white European culture may be so great as to require several generations to transition.
SJ, if the concept of “justice” isn’t in your world view, then your position on apartheid and any other injustice is clear. The one thing you need to keep in mind though is that by abjuring the concept of justice you’ll find you have no ultimate defense against injustice.
The abos for one get a little uppity about it.
Well, the ones that liked the old days did emmigrate en masse with their Krugerands shoved firmly up their arses. And lo and behold they found it mostly just like it was at home before apartheid was overturned.
Apols to the good folks that went to Oz, but it did seem to attract many of a certain type. A typical conversation from these new arrivals often went something like, “Weel I’m no rascist mind, but you caarnt expict a gorilla to suddenly start running a country. Now you Australians have the roight idea. you don’t go meking much noise about it and the world just leaves you well alone.”
HG