Thanks jdsmith, for bringing a sobering point to the discussion. I think I understand why you find the jokes offensive. That doesn’t change my view on the MJ jokes. I believe we’ve beat a dead horse long enough; perhaps it’s time to agree to disagree.
For those interested in why I feel so strongly about this…
do some reading:
[quote]Journal of Child Sexual Abuse
research, treatment, and program innovations for victims, survivors, and offenders[/quote]
Ignorance is the main cause of insensitivity.
JD, you assume wrongly that we are laughing at child abuse victims. Rather than soapboxing, perhaps you could just agree to disagree without moralising or heavily suggesting we’re somehow sick.
Soapboxing? Really? I thought this was a discussion, no?
Did I say you were laughing AT the victims? Did I say you were sick? No, don’t think so. I said, you were ignoring them, and refusing to use the tool at hand, humor to futher examine and understand the problem more completely.
Sorry if I spoiled your fun.
And please, let me know of a better subject on which to moralize.
[quote=“Dragonbones”]
I don’t buy it either. This type of humor, like racist jokes DOES NOT lead most people to analyze the subject and/or develop a real understanding of it. Therefor, what IS their purpose?
I do not laugh at these jokes. And I know exactly why: because they are wrong in that they send the message that this deplorable behavior is acceptable and/or tolerated and not worth trying to prevent, cause it happens everywhere anyway.
No, you’re statement is incorrect. I do not assume that.
“You’re” not laughing at the victims…“you” are completely ignoring them. Laughing at them would be cruel, and very little in humor is cruel. What you (specifically) have called soapbox moralization is an attempt to do what dragonbones says he wants to do: find out why people think these MJ jokes (and now I supose, we are talking about all child sexual abuse jokes) are humorous or not.
He knows my reasons.
What are yours? Is there more than what has been posted earlier: “MJ jokes are funny because MJ is a freak?”
I believe that Jdsmith is against the jokes because, the humor [color=darkred]trivalizes [/color]the severity of the problem. Jokes about MJ behavior and supposed crimes, tend to reduce the importance of the matter, especially his part and responsiblity for his behavior. What I believe jdsmith is trying to express is that he doesn’t want value of how important it is to understand and grasp the impact that sexual abuse has on an indiviual to be reduced. Too often in society, especially Western, we joke about detrimental behavior, thinking we are making light of the situation, but actually what we are doing is allowing the agent some how to avoid fully personal responsiblity.
To really grasp the impact that it has on an indiviual(sp) is really lost in our culture, because it is such an intimate act. For me I didn’t see the impact sexual abuse had beyond the black/white terms. Generally, conversations about it tend focus on ‘it’s a sick act’,etc. Yet, what I missed is how one’s sexuality is really imprinted by the act. Last year, I visited a friend who’s mother had been abused. She shared with me how in the act, she had had orgasms. It never occured to me that a victim would have an exprience to this extent, becuase I have always hear how discusting and dirty one felt durning and after the exprience. Yet, in telling me this, she explain that a victim can find the exprience highly confusing due to the fact that knowing it’s very wrong, yet, it producing a ‘normal’ response.
While using jokes to minimize and reduce our feelings of discomfort is understandable,yet there must be place where somethings are just consider sacred and must be left alone. Having class doesn’t mean you don’t have a sense of humor, it just means that your jokes require intelligence and heart…
I respectfully disagree. I see it as a form of criticizing his behavior.
Again, respectful disagreement. I don’t see how satirizing the demon allows avoidance of responsibility.
" She shared with me how in the act, she had had orgasms. It never occured to me that a victim would have an exprience to this extent, becuase I have always hear how discusting and dirty one felt durning and after the exprience."
This is, according to my reading on the topic, not unusual. I understand that this can add to the complexity of emotions, self-blame, etc., for the victim. I didn’t mention this before because it is such a sensitive topic, but this is also sometimes the reaction of underage victims too. It can contribute to very serious feelings of guilt, and subsequent sexual dysfunctions. This is, without a doubt, a very serious issue which deserves much more public attention and funding than it has received. I am particularly infuriated by the Vatican’s failure to properly deal with the abuses in the Church, shuffling offenders about without properly punishing and counseling them. Inexcusible, PERIOD.
I do thank both jdsmith and you for sharing these sober concerns with us. Although I disagree with some of your and JD’s comments, I do believe that your input will sensitize us to how offensive such jokes can be to some people. I hope that our comments will also help you understand that mature and socially responsible people can take child abuse seriously, and yet make fun of freaks like MJ as a form of satirical criticism of his behavior.[/quote]
To make fun of his behavior only ostrisizes(sp) him. Where I can laugh at some of the jokes, and agree that MJ has reduced himself to being the butt of the jokes, at the end of the day, I only see a human, who has self actualized some serious self critisms as well as seeing how as a society how far we have to go before we heal. I actually do not feel revolted by molesters, rather, compelled to compassion and sadden by the prison in which they live in. They are humans who are sick, who need to be healed because someone did it to them. Unfortunally, not all humans are able to grow into someone who is willing to challenge themselves enough to say “nope, im not gonna pass that on” because many become stuck in the event,reliving it thru their behaviors.
This weekend I watched the Fox reports of the Fla. kidnapping. The girl that was killed, her mother dated the registered sex offender that is consider a suspect in the case. I found it discuting how the media was so rabit(sp) in opinions about how to handle sex offenders. I almost see how we handle them in America, akin to how rape victims are handled. I don’t think it helps to remind a group of people how sick and nasty they are when they all ready have that conversation going thru their head. It’s like fighting fire with fire.Shaming them when they are already full of shame isn’t going to change it.
[quote=“Satellite TV”]
[/quote]
I screamed… :raspberry: 
Oh, I don’t think my laughing at MJ has any effect on him, considering we don’t run with the same friends – mine have pubic hair (I imagine). I think I laugh at him because he’s laughable. And I don’t laugh at individual cases of child abuse, the victims, etc., because they’re just sad, not funny. I don’t usually laugh at the offender either, unless they are clergy or MJ.
I wonder whether anyone has checked Bubbles to see if he’s been abused. He does walk kinda funny. Poor chimp.
wow, some pretty strong opinions here.
Personally, I don’t find them ‘offensive’ per se, but I respect the beliefs of those that do.
I find racially based jokes offensive, and religious based jokes offensive too, but I see these MJ jokes are more a dig at MJ’s pathetic life.
For MJ, the truth is very much stranger than fiction, and I hope that awareness of his behavior goes someway to helping others recognize and act on pedophile behavior instead of pushing it underground.
Amen.
But… but… Michael Jackson IS a joke! He is no more than a sorry excuse for a human being… no more than a life support system for a penis. God damn, all that money and he’s still fu%^ked up. Doesn’t he have an advisor, or shrink, or something or someone that can encourage him to put himself out of his misery?! Sad wanker.
I heard this trial is really getting to him, and he was looking to relax for a few days.
He said he was going to Tampa with the kids this weekend.
At least, I think that’s what he said. 
Care to elaborate? That you say the victims are “sad, not funny,” is so incredibly understated. I would say tortured, and the scars, even if the issues are dealt with, never go away.
What you seem to imply here is that people of certain social status are deemed laughable, right?..so far, no laughs about the 16 yr old who was abusing a toddler…why not?
Why is that? Are these wellknown people held in higher esteem? If so, why?
I for one, do not think MJ is any more special than anyone else. Why would he be? Because he sings? He can dance? He carved his face up? Because he’s rich?
My wife sings better than MJ in my opinion. I danced like crazy at Dead shows. I know lots of peolpe who carved up or tattoo or pierce their bodies. There are richer people.
Why is MJ a more spectacular story? Or the preists? Why isn’t the freaky kid next door more of a story?
IMHO, the perception of these “famous” or “revered” people is what calls the attention to them when this stuff happens. We KNOW they shouldn’t be doing this, right? But we KNOW that no one should be doing this! Or is it we know that they should know that they should not be doing this?
MJ is not special. Nor are the preists, nor the Ross kid. They’re just people. They are all suffering in one way or another from a sickness, I would say of perception. I would imagine even the worst of them is suffering. Would you keep telling drunk jokes about an alcoholic? When do you become unfunny and sadistic? What’s the cutoff point?
I completely agree that humor, and sick humor is an effective way of breaking the ice of a difficult subject. But then what? The jokes fade away and when it happens again, they start again. No real progress in understanding is made.
How many posts here before the NEXT MJ sex joke?
I would say that most of the people who tell MJsex jokes just want a cheap laugh at MJ’s expense; they do not consider the kids, and will not even attempt to think about the problem on a deeper level, aside from preferring MJ just kill himself, to put him out of OUR misery.
Anyway, I hate this topic, but I can’t let it slide away just because of that fact.
My friend is a nurse. She and the other nurses, I was horrified to discover, would make up jokes and laugh hysterically at deaths and even deformed babies, despite being - as I knew them - very caring individuals.
When I asked them about this, they responded that it’s common in their business. If they dwelt on the sadness of the situations they are faced with every day, it would soon send them into the pits of sadness, depression, and despair. Making jokes of the tragedies they witnessed was their way of dealing with things that would have a severe effect on the rest of us.
I wonder if something similar isn’t happening here. I don’t think it’s fair to blame people for not wanting to absorb the enormity of the crime supposedly commited against the victim. Many of the people who’ve made jokes here I know to be caring individuals.
[quote=“Stray Dog”]
If they dwelt on the sadness of the situations they are faced with every day, it would soon send them into the pits of sadness, depression, and despair.
Making jokes of the tragedies they witnessed was their way of dealing with things that would have a severe effect on the rest of us.
I wonder if something similar isn’t happening here. I don’t think it’s fair to blame people for not wanting to absorb the enormity of the crime supposedly commited against the victim. Many of the people who’ve made jokes here I know to be caring individuals.[/quote]
I think in kind of setting, I do agree with you. I used to work in a hospital emergency room. The staff and the police who always came in told some pretty horrific REAL jokes/stories in a humorous way.
The thing is most people do not approach this subject or similar subjects every day. And I doubt your nurse friends would tell a group of strangers the same jokes.
Why is that?
I am not saying anyone is uncaring. If I did, I was mistaken. My entire point since the beginning is that these jokes serve little purpose. It is as if the jokes are used to shake off the entire subject and use the humor to transform the conversation into something unrelated. I feel it would be much more useful for people to examine the topic more closely.
I agree with you; I just offer that humour is a way of dealing with things that abhor us. If you ask any of the joke-posters what they really thought, you’d probably get some very sincere, depressing responses.
I hate people making jokes about animal cruelty, because I see it as something we need to change and that can be changed; with Jacko, his alleged crime has been committed and the situation is being dealt with, so I guess, for me at least, it’s OK to throw humour at a subject I’d otherwise rather not dwell on.
Thinking about it, I wouldn’t tell or appreciate jokes about child abuse as a whole; it’s only the Jacko case I find acceptable. :s
…so what category does the “MJ likes to blow Bubbles” joke fall into?