A Taipei Times editorial not written by an idiot! Amazing ! :bravo:
Arms deal does not (still has plenty of typos though) equal security.
Damnit! I just sprayed a mouthful of Mountain Dew across my keyboard!
ROC must become militarily neutral like Switzerland in order to survive.
Also Taiwanese are pretty shrewd when it comes to ripping off people. We know when we are being taken for a ride.
Then Taiwan is going to have to develop a military (and nationalism) that is strong enough to make its neutrality survivable.
Damn right. They’ve been living off the USA’s aid and military since WWII. Time to grow up and pay back all those aid loans, kiddies. Build your own subs…or do without.
Good, every man on this island below the age of 34 has to spend 3 weeks in the army every year.
They will all keep their military gear at home so if the Chinese attack, they will basically have every man in the country shooting at them. Obviously, all equipment used by teh swiss defence is new and up to date, so the Taiwanese would have to de the same as well.
Sure, I can live with that idea.
Also, in order to make the need for the arms procurement package unnessecary, I suggest that the US make air strikes against the following Chinese military installations:
- All ballistic missile sites.
- All major Chinese air bases.
- All factories capable of producing any kind of military equipment.
- Major military ports and bases.
If this took place, Taiwan could do without the arms package for say 10 years, and the strategic situation here in East Asia would be a great deal more stable, as the most immature and aggressive player is not an issue for the time being.
You 2 guys are hilarious. How come you don’t suggest the same for the Chinese side? That they stop buying all that offensive hardware? Even with their current stuff, they have enough to defend themselves from atacks from everybody save Russia and China. No more is needed, and they should spend the money on securing clean water,education, and enough food to the poorest in their society.
At least Taiwan has been able to secure that - and much more for the weakest here.
Ahem, considering that the ROC has no formal military alliances with any other country, it is already effectively neutral. I guess that’s not good enough for you and cmdjing, though. I guess the only thing you guys would accept is for the ROC AF, Army, Marine Corps and Navy to dump every last one of their weapons in the sea off Jilong, get down on their knees, open their mouths and write “insert PRC balls here” on their chins.
AC and other anti-government types need to wake up from this stupid pipe dream that the ROC would somehow be safer by being militarily vulnerable. Mark my words: as soon as the mainlanders feel confident that they have a great enough military advantage, they will come across the strait. It’s as certain as death and taxes. If they know they can beat the ROC military, they won’t stop to think for one millionth of a second about world opinion or how “shocked” the developed world would be. If they know that they have a strong enough military advantage, they won’t wait for “eventual” or slow unification or unification brought about by economic integration. As soon as they think they’ve got the advantage, the missiles will fly. Even if the KMT were to sweep the legislature this year and take the presidency in 2008, the PRC would still attack if they thought they could pull it off. They’ve already seen the direction that CSB has been able to push the ROC in during the past four years. They won’t take any more chances, even with a KMT government, if they think they don’t have to take those chances.
Good, every man on this island below the age of 34 has to spend 3 weeks in the army every year.
They will all keep their military gear at home so if the Chinese attack, they will basically have every man in the country shooting at them. Obviously, all equipment used by teh swiss defence is new and up to date, so the Taiwanese would have to de the same as well.
Sure, I can live with that idea.
Also, in order to make the need for the arms procurement package unnessecary, I suggest that the US make air strikes against the following Chinese military installations:
- All ballistic missile sites.
- All major Chinese air bases.
- All factories capable of producing any kind of military equipment.
- Major military ports and bases.
If this took place, Taiwan could do without the arms package for say 10 years, and the strategic situation here in East Asia would be a great deal more stable, as the most immature and aggressive player is not an issue for the time being.
You 2 guys are hilarious. How come you don’t suggest the same for the Chinese side? That they stop buying all that offensive hardware? Even with their current stuff, they have enough to defend themselves from atacks from everybody save Russia and China. No more is needed, and they should spend the money on securing clean water,education, and enough food to the poorest in their society.
At least Taiwan has been able to secure that - and much more for the weakest here.[/quote]
Pretty funny Mr He…except for what occurred under the Clinton regieme tell me about PRC Mil purchases. from the USA…?
Got any specifics?
Its disgusting that Taiwan can’t even provide clean tap water. But to blame this on spending for military needs is ridiculous.
Its because of corruption and lack of accountability in the Taiwan Gov’t interior departments and anyone whi has livewd here longer than 2 weeks knows this.
For you to postulate that Taiwan is better/safer/healthier/whatever to neglect military spending needfs is naive. shortsighted, ignorant and suspect of an alterior agenda.
Sorry Dude…I respectfully put forth that…“That dog just won’t hunt”
An old Texas expression.
No Tainancowboy… As far as I know, China did not buy anything military from the US since the late 1990’s.
Also, I am in favor of Taiwan buying the arms package.
If they did like Switzerlnd, and made sure that every able-bodied man had the most modern military equipment, then a Chinese invasion would be greeted by 1.5m angry Taiwanese with arms and the knoeledge how to use them. Now, that would teach the Chinese a lesson they would not forget for some time.
Unfortunately, I think a Swiss-style defense, with an assault rifle in every home, would see every traffic dispute end in a shooting…
I was really implying that we need to earn the trust of the PRC and USA government that we can become a neutral country in their Sino-USA conflict.
Allow for equal access to both USA and PRC government in the ROC.
Assuage PRC fear of ROC declaring “formal” independence and participating in USA “containment” policy.
Reduce USA concern of ROC transferring knowledge and technology to PRC.
The US is Taiwan’s ally, the PRC is an enemy. Trust from the PRC will mean the PLA goosestepping down Ketagalan Avenue. If they trust us and Taiwan gets rid of the military, then Taiwan will be doomed as a de-facto independent nation.
What? You advocate that Taiwan is to give parts of its sovereignity to the US and the PRC??
I would say that if the PRC replied to the goodwill shown from Taiwan, then we would get farther in that respect, perhaps Taiwan’s government would even take the political overtures from the PRC seriously.
Well, the US is the safety umbrella here we direly need… not containment as such.
That’s a good one. Agree.
Why is negotiating direct with USA and PRC seen as giving up sovereignty? Or allow both countries equal access to our government, giving up anything?
This is all purely hypothetical exercise of stating what if ROC decided to become a neutral terrirtory to the Sino-USA conflict, a diplomatically neutral position to stabilize the Strait Issue. It would diffuse the need of an arms build up on PRC side, since realistically they are countering for USA intervention in the Strait, hence ROC would not need to keep up with the PRC arms race. We would only need enough arms to repel a amphibious landing.
Also as a military, politically, and economically neutral state; other nations might be more willing to deal with us directly without retribution from PRC, since we at that time will be neutral in all international affairs.
[quote=“ac_dropout”]
Why is negotiating direct with USA and PRC seen as giving up sovereignty? Or allow both countries equal access to our government, giving up anything?[/quote]
Taiwan is neutral. no formal allies. Therefore the PRC can negotiate now - but they don’t unless Taiwan declares that Taiwan is a part of the PRC.
The Taiwan issue hs been made into a rather large part of that conflict by the PRC.
Sure, we need enough arms to repel a PRC landing. Therefore the current arms package is sorely needed. The KMT traitors don’t see things that way - come the LY election, they will suffer for that.
Let’s see if the PRC will recognize Taiwan as a “Neutral” state, or a state of any form. I will have pigeons flying out my arse the day that happens.
This is where I disagree, I believe that if it requires ROC subscribing to “One China” there is still a lot of room to negotiate Taiwan sovereignty and neutrality.
My paradigm of the Strait Issue, the problem is that there is no balance on the PRC side to the ROC-USA alliance. There is no balance to the Taiwan Relationship Act.
In fact there is no balance to the AIT. At the very least move towards establishing a PRCIT (PRC Institute in Taiwan) would be constructive to establishing a balance and moving toward neutrality.
Both sides have been actively participating in the Strait Issue for 50 years. The recent flare ups were of course LTH in 1996, CSB in 2000 and 2004.
PRC is reacting to Taidu rhetoric.
I’m not convince this arms package will accomplish its goal without the assistance of Japan and USA in a military conflict. I was thinking more along the lines of Atlantic Wall the Nazi used along the coastline of France. It is conventional, cheap, and will keep a landing force off the beaches.
KMT opposition sees the arms package as a huge deficit in Taiwan’s spending. Unlike the USA with a #1 economy, ROC may not be able to rebound if it spends the money. Especially since our economic well-being is tied into our relationship with PRC.
For that to happen ROC still needs to make a few first steps for PRC to perceive us as neutral as describe in the paragraphs above.
Please post pic of the pigeons.
[quote=“ac_dropout”]
This is where I disagree, I believe that if it requires ROC subscribing to “One China” there is still a lot of room to negotiate Taiwan sovereignty and neutrality. [/quote]
How will you negotiate sovereignty, when you have already declared that you are part of another country?
So you suggest that US congress start to approve the sale of weaponry to China? Also, what do you mean by balance. The current status quo/balance is maintained at least in part by US weapons and soldiers.
Well, how come the PRC don’t establish that - and offers that Taiwan establish one in Beijing. I don’t think Taiwan would turn that down.
[quote=“ac_dropout”]
Both sides have been actively participating in the Strait Issue for 50 years. The recent flare ups were of course LTH in 1996, CSB in 2000 and 2004. [/quote]
If you read Chinese propaganda from the 1950’s you will see that the unification with China was touted. China did not have the means then, and Taiwan had many US troops stationed, so forced reunification was out of the question.
The flares were artificial, created by China. And the logic behind calling them inevitable is flawed to put it mildly.
The Taidu movement has received a lot of impetus from China’s pressure.
[quote=“ac_dropout”]
I’m not convince this arms package will accomplish its goal without the assistance of Japan and USA in a military conflict. I was thinking more along the lines of Atlantic Wall the Nazi used along the coastline of France. It is conventional, cheap, and will keep a landing force off the beaches. [/quote]
Mobile warfare… The atlantic wall was breached in a day… The Maginot line was simply circumvented. Static positions are a killer for the defenders. Also, a credible static defense filling every coastline with fortifications will be expensive. 1000 km of it. It will also requre mobile support units along the line of a few subs, a big airforce and credible armored land forces.
NT$680bn is not that much for a relatively rich country like Taiwan. Also taxes are very low here, so a small increase is a low price to pay for security. Also, as the taxes are small, the increase will not have a big impact on the economy.
Moreover, the Taiwanese economy is rebounding nicely right now, with unemployment falling and economic growth at a nice steady clip.
[quote=“ac_dropout”]
For that to happen ROC still needs to make a few first steps for PRC to perceive us as neutral as describe in the paragraphs above. [/quote]
the ROC has made many overtures. No effect so far. Short of surrendering I see no steps which can appease the Chinese.
In that very unlikely instance it will happen, certainly.
If you promise to post proof that you will keep your breath to it happens. I will provide some tape to help you heep mouth and nose shut.
I’m sure it is not that difficult. If the world’s most borish people can dicuss light being both a particle and wave, or contemplate the Grand Unification Theory to get Gravity to work on sub-atomic particles.
The simple task of writing flowery verbage to state “We of Taiwan are part of China, but not really” should be child’s play.
Sure USA military arms sales is one of the biggest businesses in the USA. GE and Westinghouse being lobbying US Congress to approve of building a high tech nuclear reactor in China. Why should Russia and France get to make money in China?
That’s a military balance, which is precieved as all sides preparing for a possible threat from all sides involved.
I’m suggesting ROC becoming truly neutral, so that neither USA or China will precieve the ROC as a threat.
Sure when PRC percieve us as being truly neutral and not a threat. I don’t see why this would be a real issue.
The point is actually reaching this political state.
After years of planning and logistics.
Forcing even more businesses and individuals to go direct to China. Reducing overall tax revenue.
This leadership wasted all its credibilty with PRC trying to get into office, to bad, but that’s the way politics works.
Vision getting dim…face turning blue…hurry post your pigeon pic…don’t know how long I can last…counting sheep…1 sheep, 2 sheep…
[quote=“ac_dropout”]
I’m sure it is not that difficult. If the world’s most borish people can dicuss light being both a particle and wave, or contemplate the Grand Unification Theory to get Gravity to work on sub-atomic particles.
The simple task of writing flowery verbage to state “We of Taiwan are part of China, but not really” should be child’s play.[/quote]
No reason for China not to hold out for a “We are a part of the PRC” declaration. Your proposed route is not safe.
OK, what would that “neutrality” entail… tell me in detail…
Funny that you now say that there’s a military balance BTW. Tell me if you think there’s a balance and why.
[quote=“ac_dropout”]Sure when PRC percieve us as being truly neutral and not a threat. I don’t see why this would be a real issue.
The point is actually reaching this political state. [/quote]
Well we could offer the PRC to make one now… After all, there should be nothing hindering them having an office here. and no need to kowtow for them before they open one.
[quote=“ac_dropout”]
After years of planning and logistics.[/quote]
Well but in one day nonetheless… also, I would assume that the PRC is planning for how to take this island in this very moment.
Forcing even more businesses and individuals to go direct to China. Reducing overall tax revenue. [/quote]
Taiwan is the 4’th most competitive country in the world, ranking well above china… I think a nudge down to the 5th place would be an acceptable price to pay.
Also, the “hollowing out of Taiwan” is largely a myth. Foreign reserves are stronger than ever, the unemployment rate is low, and the aconomy is growing.
[quote=“ac_dropout”]
This leadership wasted all its credibilty with PRC trying to get into office, to bad, but that’s the way politics works.[/quote]
I believe that the PRC has squandered every chance to solve the problems as they appear unable to fathom how to get some talks going. instead, they cling to their hardened positions. No creativity, no movement.
The DPP has not squandered anything. They have been behaving rather well in relation to the PRC. too bad that the PRC can’t see that, but the PRC is a very myopic nation anyways.
Vision getting dim…face turning blue…hurry post your pigeon pic…don’t know how long I can last…counting sheep…1 sheep, 2 sheep…[/quote]
Keep your breath, keep it… don’t forget to glue your mouth and nose shut!!!
I don’t disagree that in public PRC has this on its aggenda. But I believe it a point that can be negotiated once we demostrated that ROC is no threat to PRC and will not participate in any threatening actions of foriegn nations towards PRC.
Tall order…could fill a book with the details.
But an overview is to identify all threats PRC percieve coming from the ROC and either moderate them internally or offer the PRC an opportunity to balance the percieved threat.
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Taidu rhetoric - that has to stop. PRC sees those as threats. If the DPP is reaction to KMT “unification” rhetoric, I would recommend all political parties to come to a consensus that public discourse on the matter follow strict guidelines as to not instigate future flare ups with the PRC. It might even help the political landscape on Taiwan since parties would have to develop other platforms and frame other issues for public discussion to garner votes.
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USA-ROC alliance. We must give PRC the same access to our society and government as we afford other foriegn countries. Everything from PRC citizens obtaining ROC entry visa, to PRC version of AIT and AmCham must be balanced.
Neither ROC nor PRC trust each other yet politically. So I think it is too early. I believe once ROC reaches this position of political, economic, and military neutrality; postive and constructive discussion can begin.
Do you think it would be acceptable to people who lose their jobs and livelihood over this process? I know many people who lost jobs thus far. Not a pretty picture.
I’ll believe when I see it, economic environment is still soft in Taiwan. My reports and the government reports don’t always agree. However, my reports have no political aggenda either.
You work for the GIO or MAC? Everything points to the contrary, even USA has to step in to give some outside political guidance to smooth things over between the Straits.
121,979,746 sheep, 121,979,747 sheep…You going to show me the pic soon…I don’t know how long I can keep this up…121,979,748 sheep…
This would certainly be advantageous for Beijing and the annexation extremists within the blue camp, but does little for RoT supporters who also happen to vote and pay taxes in Taiwan. What the Taiwanese need to start doing is exercising their US constitional rights.
Theres an organization started recently in the US and Taiwan that seeks to postpone any decision on Taiwans status for 50 years while simultaneously guaranteeing that Beijing wont dare attack. Its plan would have Taiwan become a commonwealth of the USA for 50 years through plebiscite. At the end of the 50 year term Taiwanese would vote on one of the 3 following questions;
- Become a Republic of Taiwan
- Become the 51st state of the USA
- Become a province of China
It may seem far-fetched, but if it were to happen it would certainly force Beijing to abandon the stick and start dangling the carrot in front of Taiwan if it still wanted to annex it after the 50 year period expired.
This would certainly be advantageous for Beijing and the annexation extremists within the blue camp, but does little for RoT supporters who also happen to vote and pay taxes in Taiwan. What the Taiwanese need to start doing is exercising their US constitional rights.
Theres an organization started recently in the US and Taiwan that seeks to postpone any decision on Taiwans status for 50 years while simultaneously guaranteeing that Beijing wont dare attack. Its plan would have Taiwan become a commonwealth of the USA for 50 years through plebiscite. At the end of the 50 year term Taiwanese would vote on one of the 3 following questions;
- Become a Republic of Taiwan
- Become the 51st state of the USA
- Become a province of China
It may seem far-fetched, but if it were to happen it would certainly force Beijing to abandon the stick and start dangling the carrot in front of Taiwan if it still wanted to annex it after the 50 year period expired.
Here`s the link;