Association for native English-speaking instructors?

Work Teaching English in Taiwan
181

You can advocate until the cows come home but you’re not going to get a lot of sympathy from the locals, expats, and quite a few English teachers themselves.

You’re comparing your situation with slavery? Please tell me Scott, what color is the sky in your world?

My original post was stating there seems to be a serious disconnect between what some posters think the English Teachers situation is and reality. Whatever happens in your industry doesn’t effect me either way I just feel we should all take look around us and be fortunate for what we have. You could “loosely” say this is subjective but I just don’t see how you could go anywhere on this planet and 1) get paid double of what the average local makes 2) have no rare talent/skill, then have the balls to think you have more coming to you.

182

Erh wwhat was that again? Back to the future in reverse… lol

183

[quote=“kwaz666”]OK posters, continue with the tirade via keyboard or start joining with your feet:

After meeting today with board members of the Labor Rights Association of Taiwan, an NGO which helps workers to organise to improve their conditions at work, TLTA has established the legal direction of our organization. We have been able to confirm that, as teachers and foreign workers holding ARC’s, we are not legally able to form a Trade Union, [/quote]

OK you have Board Members.

But where is your NGO registered so that we can visit the office and sign up?

By the way are youa sking school owners themselves to join. After all there won’t be any improvements of you can’t get every Bushiban, Kindergarten, and other schools wth english teachers to participate.

Surely your NGO is not just a yahoo based web entity with no physical presence in Taiwan.

Many years ago I was a licenced Immigration consultant in Tawan. I had to pay NT$20,000 a year to the Taipie Migration Agents Association. What did it do? Nothing. But we had to join as part of our licencing.

SO although your ideas make snse to you they may not be accepted by those you are marketing yourself too.

Who is going to fund your asssocaitions office and expenses. You had better have a nice pot of money ut away to fund yourself or your association will be delcaring bankruptcy in it’s first 6 months of operations.

184

[quote]Productivity Problems Of Unionized Firms

Companies and industries in which unions have significant power have been steadily declining, and union power has been declining along with them. Less than 10 percent of the private work force is unionized now – compared to about 27 percent in the early 1950s.

Since unionized workers earn about 15 percent more on average than nonunionized workers, these higher wage costs put unionized businesses at a competitive disadvantage – which, according to studies, they are generally unable to overcome.

A forthcoming analysis by Kevin Hassett, of the American Enterprise Institute, and Federal Reserve economist Bruce C. Fallick identifies several strategies unionized businesses could pursue to overcome the disadvantage of higher wage costs. But it concludes that the strategies are not really effective.

* Theoretically, a unionized company could buy more machines and automate its way to lower production costs.

* But unionized companies seldom take this route – because as the company’s profits increase, unions simply escalate their wage demands.
work less…demand more?..Feck off.

* Unionized companies have been accused of acquiring nonunionized firms to get around higher wages and union work rules.

* But unionized companies almost always merge with other unionized companies out of fear that unions will spread to a nonunionized acquisition -- thereby [b]prompting a decline in the value of the formerly nonunionized asset. [/b]

Proof that unionized businesses usually reject the automation strategy is provided by the fact that firms generally invest about 30 percent less in new machines when their workers are unionized.

Studies show that American workers in recent years have become increasingly less convinced that unions are worthwhile.

Source: Kevin Hassett (American Enterprise Institute), “Why Big Labor Keeps Getting Smaller,” Wall Street Journal, August 3, 1998. [/quote]

The Idiocy of Unions.

[quote]Union blames big business sending jobs overseas
THE service sector is at risk of losing more than one million jobs during the next two decades as a result of big business outsourcing work overseas, a union report predicts.

One in 10 service jobs could be sent offshore, the report prepared for the Service Unions of Australia reveals today.
[/quote]
news.com.au/business/story/0 … 62,00.html
Geeeeeeez…wonder how that happened? UNIONS? Now the “Unions” Shit bricks?

Piss people off enough by “demanding” that Foreign teachers “deserve” more than their local equally qualified counterparts…?

You’re kidding riiiiight?

The newbie and his poorly informed compadres are in for a rude awakening. There are too damned many FOB’s scrambling for ARC’s. <— THAT is the magic bullet.

Do you have any CLUE why soooo many “teachers” are sweating bullets just to GET an ARC? Then you want to throw in TRIPE about “Rights to More Inflated Wages”…delusional thinking.

There are a million and one ways for an owner to legally get rid of you. Don’t forget that nasty little FACT. There is no reason on earth to extend a contract after it expires either.

FIRST: Make damn good and sure you are even worth HALF of what you are being paid.
2nd: Make sure you have the “correct” accent. …LOL
3rd: Quit yer bitching.

Present day “Unions” are nothing but a huge drain on everybody…and the most amusing thing…They KILLED their own jobs! waaaaaaaaahhhhhh…but no worries…people Over seas are profiting from their stupidity.

You’ve already collectively admitted you lack the ability to negotiate better contracts for yourselves…so you bumble along on a misguided attempt to “lead” newbies to a nirvana of contractual demands? Idiotic!

There are plenty of very decent FOB’s…and even more tried and experienced teachers to choose from. You want to “edumacate” newbs with BS?

Puff them up with crap and send them into an interview and they BLOW it when it comes time to discuss the contract? You REALLY ought to give your head a shake.

There is REALITY and there is BUSINESS. Neither of which you have the vaguest grasp of.

185

Harsh, but quite accurate.
I’m guessing your post will be deleted for being too direct, or rude, or honest, or whatever adjective it is that the mods deem it to be, as mine basically attempted to make the same points in a similar manner and it mysteriously vanished from the thread.

186

Monday meeting will go as planned

187

[quote=“wudjamahuh”]Harsh, but quite accurate.
I’m guessing your post will be deleted for being too direct, or rude, or honest, or whatever adjective it is that the mods deem it to be, as mine basically attempted to make the same points in a similar manner and it mysteriously vanished from the thread.[/quote]The one about MOS Burger? It’s here: forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopi … 098#864098
That’s the only one of yours I removed. Perhaps the one you’re thinking of is still in the thread?

And no, I won’t remove Souldragon’s post. The tone’s a bit harsh, but there are no personal insults in it (I don’t think “newbie” counts!), and it’s on-topic.

188

[quote=“kwaz666”]Who are you? Stop posting, start showing your face. Where were you today? Where are you Mondays?Sippin Lattes at McCaffe?

Puss off if I must. You are all clowns and pussies. Show up or shut up.

This is not an F-in Union so give it up. I am not a wanker with a keyboard. We are an organization, forming alliances with others. Were you at the Filipino parade today? NO

I was unfortunately. We had too much whiskey, it was a good day. MIGRANTE! ES VIDA![/quote]

Well surely this is one of the best ways to attract people to your association.

Your are going to talk to all of your members like this eh? I can’t wait to receive my first association newsletter.

Good luck.

PS My name, website and phone number are clear to see… Where is yours eh?

189

You want me to waste my time coming to a time-wasting “meeting” hosted by a rude little shit? No thanks. Not until you show that you have SOME idea of what you’re doing and not until you’ve addressed the points raised by the people here who actually have a damn clue what they’re talking about.
You’re all mouth, no trousers. One would think that after several meetings you would actually have something concrete to offer, instead of the nonsensical “getting you a better deal!” and “I got drunk! Woohoo!”
What a complete joke! :unamused: You offer NOTHING! Not a single damn thing. And the best you can do is to get yourself worked up into a pouting, foot-stamping little tizzy when the overwhelming feedback you get is “EXPLAIN your plans!”
Way to win people over and no mistake.
You are correct in only ONE thing so far – there are indeed clowns here. Two of them to be precise. I don’t know if they’re pussies, too, but they sure as hell don’t have much of a clue.

190

[quote]Were you at the Filipino parade today? NO

I was unfortunately. We had too much whiskey, it was a good day. MIGRANTE! ES VIDA![/quote]

I’m really confused now. What the hell is this all about?

191

[quote=“On The Brink”][quote]Were you at the Filipino parade today? NO

I was unfortunately. We had too much whiskey, it was a good day. MIGRANTE! ES VIDA![/quote]

I’m really confused now. What the hell is this all about?[/quote]
Migrant worker’s alliance. He’s “getting you a better deal” by trying to ride on the coattails of this group that looks out for the rights of the REAL exploited here – the blue-collar laborers. As usual, HOW he plans to do this is … erm … a little tiny bit unclear (and even THAT’S giving him a very large benefit of the doubt).

192

[quote=“freegaynhappy”]The ferocity of these attacks on those wishing to unionize/organize makes me really wonder just what the ulterior motive is of these people, that they are so scared of people wanting to form an association…Wouldn’t it be interesting to know just what their vested interest is in maintaining the status quo?
…
Anyone reading this thread should be aware that many of the people contributing the strongly negative commentary (and we do know who they are) have vested interests in maintaining the status quo. If you’re a buxiban owner, doing quite well thank you from the existing system, I guess I can understand that you don’t want anything to change. But some of us here are interested in making positive changes, and are here as teachers wanting to do quality teaching, not just make a quick buck from running businesses that parade as education providers but are really nothing more than slick marketing operations exploiting a population that feels under pressure to educate their kids at all costs and make easy prey for these bloodsucking mercenaries.
[/quote]

Um, I really hate to burst your bubble of indignation here, but I’m not even IN Taiwan. Never owned or worked at a buxiban either. I did teach while in Taiwan and by all accounts I was doing some “quality teaching”, as you put it. I have no interests whatsoever at this point in how teachers are treated in Taiwan. However, I DO know how things work in Taiwan, as do the other people who are pointing out why this won’t work. If you choose not to listen to the comments of those who know (a lot) more about how Taiwan works than you do, then be our guest, waste your time and money and enjoy your youthful idealism to the hilt. Just be sure to post here when you get deported, so we can enjoy another 20-page thread about it.

193

Third meeting was successful. Direction and goals . Still looking for more members.

All teachers are encouraged to join. Teaching English/Japanese/Spanish/Korean and any language. Taiwanese or foreign born.

Though we are based in Taipei, we welcome people from all over the island.

Agenda:
Establishing a FAQ list
First initial survey of signed up members
gathering legal documents
New contacts with other associations/NGOs/etc.
First general meeting

Group home page: groups.yahoo.com/group/tlta
Group email address: taiwanteachersassociation@yahoo.com

More to come

Next meeting Monday 6/23

Hope to see more of you there

194

[quote=“kwaz666”]Third meeting was successful. Direction and goals . Still looking for more members.

All teachers are encouraged to join. Teaching English/Japanese/Spanish/Korean and any language. Taiwanese or foreign born.

Though we are based in Taipei, however, we welcome people from all over the island.

Agenda:
Establishing a FAQ list
First initial survey of signed up members
gathering legal documents
New contacts with other associations/NGOs/etc.
First general meeting

Group home page: groups.yahoo.com/group/tlta
Group email address: taiwanteachersassociation@yahoo.com

More to come

Next meeting Monday 6/23

Hope to see more of you there[/quote]Kwaz666, I think these “update” posts would be more valuable to everyone–including yourselves-- if you could give a bit more detail about what has actually been decided at these meetings. You say you’ve fixed “direction and goals”, well, what are they? What’s the scope of the FAQ, and where are you getting the “Qs” from anyway? (Presumably not from this thread, though the Qs have have been frequent enough! :wink: )

Just a suggestion.

195

joesax,

If you have a look at their Yahoo Club, you’ll notice that they have changed the text introduction. I suspect our friends now believe they have addressed the issue of “detail”. They would be wrong in doing so.

[quote]In Taiwan there currently does not exist a functioning professional association, trade union or any other democratic, representative body for foreign or local language teachers.[/quote].

The ETA-ROC is a fully functioning professional group. It is open to members of all backgrounds. In fact, I don’t even think you need to be a language teacher. While you may disagree with the goals of the ETA, their is no denying that they are a professional association. If our friends had intended to say there is no functioning advocacy group for English teachers, I would have to agree.

While I think it’s a good thing for you to expand on your initial statement - which was meaningless - I am not sure this statement improves on the original situation. I think what critical people on this site refer to is some sense of how you intend to carry out your action that goes beyond posting on forumosa. If your Yahoo Club is intended to be more than a ‘secret society’, I suggest you answer some questions concerning what sort of labour action you support. As I once asked, what will you do to an employer who does treat foreign teacher’s unfairly? How would you respond if a school fired someone for joining your association?

As it stands, I wouldn’t blame someone for firing teachers who joined your group. It appears to more like a gang of thugs than anything else. The only things I know about your group is that it has closed membership, you must be screened by existing members before you learn where the club meets, and it plans to threaten employers whom you deem to be treating any of your 7 members unfairly. You seem to make much of its status as “a legal organization”, but so is the Green Gang. In fact, the Hell’s Angels are an incorporated group with a registered trademark.

So help me out guys. I’d like to start saying something nice about you, but you’re not being very cooperative. Just start by answering my two questions.

  1. What will you do to an employer who does treat foreign teacher’s unfairly?
  2. How would you respond if a school fired someone for joining your association?
196

[quote]So help me out guys. I’d like to start saying something nice about you, but you’re not being very cooperative. Just start by answering my two questions.

  1. What will you do to an employer who does treat foreign teacher’s unfairly?
  2. How would you respond if a school fired someone for joining your association?[/quote]
  3. What will you do when foreigner is working illegally on a student visa? Would you turn your foreign brother in? Report him/ her?
  4. Will you also demand that foreign teachers be granted the “RIGHT” to demand to see the ARC of every other foreigner…just to be SURE they aren’t “illegal?” After all…he/she is STEALING your cozy little Union claim to $$$$
  5. Will you plan a little “Union Police Agency” of the foreign English teachers?
  6. Will you also accept reports from foreigners about other foreigners breaking the drug laws and report them to the proper authorities? that would clean up a lot of the riff raff…lol
  7. Will you enforce a dress code of professionalism?..lol
  8. Will you create and write tests for all English Levels that your teachers students must pass, such that the teacher may retain his/her job?
  9. Will you cross check ALL the documents pertaining to their work permit?..lol might eliminate a few of your own “brethren”…
  10. Will you throw/invest in 1-2000000NT to the OWNER of the school to tie yourself to the profits/losses?

    Whenever the “collective” manages to extricate itself from the current predicament…maybe some ANSWERS would be amusing…

…TOO funny. Exclude those that manage to succeed without a Whiner’s Organization?

Amazing how QUICKLY you rewrote and redirected yourselves…yeesh…
Blind leading the Blind…you’re gonna go far…LOL

All that will happen:

  1. Buxibans will hire those who will work. Won’t be union members. History is proof enough
  2. Owners will hire locally and pay accordingly.
  3. Parents may get lower tuitions, which will make them rather happy.
  4. Foreigners will find it even harder to find a job with an ARC. Your bogus Union / Association can do nothing about that…LOL.
  5. Newbie’s will get very screwed up ideas listening to your BS and screw themselves out of good jobs.
  6. You will give the local Taiwanese teachers even more reason to dislike foreign teachers and even better reason to do so. Life will be less pleasant for the foreigner.

Carry on…

197

These are actually very good points. We all know that some number of foreign teachers have used counterfeit or fraudulent diplomas to obtain work permits. This is possible because of loop-holes in the MOE’s system of regulation. To join this Yahoo club, do I have to undergo a more comprehensive check? I can just imagine the scandal if our friends went to the press about employment problems of a teacher who later turned out to have been working illegally. If you were involved in threatening the employers of illegal workers would this in some sense make you a blackmail ring?

How do you propose to evaluate prospects to your Yahoo group?

198

[quote]As it stands, I wouldn’t blame someone for firing teachers who joined your group. It appears to more like a gang of thugs than anything else. The only things I know about your group is that it has closed membership, you must be screened by existing members before you learn where the club meets, and it plans to threaten employers whom you deem to be treating any of your 7 members unfairly. You seem to make much of its status as “a legal organization”, but so is the Green Gang. In fact, the Hell’s Angels are an incorporated group with a registered trademark.
[/quote]
Gang of schoolkids, more like. And yes, you keep harping on about needing more members, yet you’re too chickenshit to actually open your memership or even announce the location of your meetings. Doesn’t seem like a good way to get more members to me.
If I knew where the meetings were held I might well show up – unlike you appear to be, I’d be only too happy to address all these points to you in person, in front of the “massed ranks” of your “members.” I know I’d be wasting my time if I was looking for answers from you, of course, but I’m sure it would make your other dupes – sorry, “members” – think again about your ability and qualifications to lead them bravely into a better tomorrow. :laughing:

Soul Dragon had some very good questions too, which I’m sure you’ll address as comprehensively as the other pages and pages of questions that remain unanswered.

You want us to stop treating you like clowns? Then stop acting like clowns.

199

It seems to be a running theme with regard to these unions that crop up every few years.

Questions get asked… advocate of said union dodges anything remotely resembling a thought out point and then accuses those who ask of bellend-dom.

Wash rinse repeat.

I can’t be arsed to ask my question again because I know the answer. I’m guessing it was a service you didn’t know existed, but there again, with your superior knowledge of the ins and outs of employment law here, I’m sure you know a better solution.

200

Hey! I know! You could publish “teachers’ advisory warnings” on your website!
You have to make it mealy-mouthed, so it looks like it came from a real organization, though:

“Any teachers considering taking up employment in Chiayi City are hereby advised that there is a danger of gangsters. Beware.”

That kind of thing.