Please list the legal registered address and name of the union with telephone numbers so we can all go and visit to sign up. 
Are there lunchboxes?
Lunchboxes are ephemeral. What we want are badges we can sew on our blazer pockets, enamel badges, hats, tshirts.
Speak for yourself. I ainât marchinâ without a tea egg.
This is the really scary part. You donât even know what it means to have âconnectionsâ in Taiwan, do you? I donât mean through the Bamboo Union; I mean real, Chinese-culture, usable connections that amount to something. The average EFL teacher in Taiwan isnât there long enough to learn what the concept means in Taiwan, let alone actually develop any.[/quote]
Ditto. The days of the lone workers being able to come together to affect change are long gone, by a couple hundred years.
And IronLady, Iâm sure you have your connections, but those too are pretty worthless. Connections, guanxi, relationships, are all transitory. They do not last. Each one of us are on our own. Life hangs by a thread, and your âconnectionsâ or âunionâ canât do shit for you in a pinch. They are an illusion. They give you a false sense of security.
Security, isnât that what this thread is about? How can we feel safe? Financially and economically and socially protected? Isnât this discussion ultimately about fear?[/quote]
UmâŚIâm not sure where that came from, but I definitely wasnât saying that I have any useful connections either. But that way I donât suffer from an illusion of protection or security. I know I donât have any.
My point was only that a largely transient population in Taiwan (as are most EFL teachers, percentage-wise) are not going to have any useful connections to build a union on. And, ironically, those who do have connections (usually longer-term teachers) would likely use them to resolve any individual issues that come up for them, rather than to build a union.[/quote]
I was speaking hypothetically for the purpose of illustration. But I agree with your point entirely.
[quote=âScottSommersâ]
And thatâs my point. I think unions are great. I think a real union for foreign teachers would be great. [/quote]
Scott, why? Why would a foreign teachers union be âgreatâ? Iâm a foreign teacher. Iâm very happy with everything. Why in the world would I want some association hitting me up for money, making waves with my administration, and basically making my life more difficult? Can you please, please tell me how I might benefit from that?
Iâm sorry, but so far I disagree with you entirely. I agree that other foreign laborers have a rough deal here, but thatâs not my problem. I feel sorry for them, but weâre not âbrotherâs and sisterâsâ just because weâre foreigners, and I also have no pity for untrained, uninformed westerners that come here to make short-term money in bushibans and then complain about how theyâre treated.
And so I say fuck your unions. I have enough politicians trying to stick their fingers up my ass. Please keep yours to yourself.
Now, as Iâve said, if you can tell me precisely how such an organization will benefit me, then Iâll listen. Otherwise, take it elsewhere.
And if a group of English teachers form a union to protect their rights as workers, who cares if you donât want to join?
I donât quite understand your point.
On the other hand, I still think these guys have no idea what theyâre doing.
Without a closed shop, ensuring that no non-union teachers can work here, the best theyâll be able to do is give you the telephone number of the CLA if you have a dispute.
A closed shop will NEVER happen, so all theyâll be doing is lessening their own employment prospects â who would YOU hire if you had the choice between union and non-union?
So itâll basically be the same as Aristotle and his short-lived âsecret societyâ at worst, a website listing a few useful telephone numbers and maybe with a âresident expertâ to offer consultations at best.
Happy little games but of basically no use whatsoever.
Itâs a learning curve. Nothing wrong with the situation. Nothing that needs fixing. You only require the ability to LEARNâŚand all goes well.
[quote]And how would these people â the ones you want to coddle â even find out about such an association, given what that other bloke wrote about not even being able to find this relatively high profile site, or even the FAR more high profile Tealit?
Fact is, those who make the effort usually find their feet quite easily here â as I said before, itâs hardly what youâd call a hardship post â while those who donât bother, or who are incapable of, finding out about what theyâre getting into, often end up screwed, through no fault of anyone but themselves. Such people donât need an association, they need a wetnurse.[/quote]
Canât feel sorry for people not willing to open their own eyes.
???..LOLâŚDo the MATH yourself!!! How freaking difficult is that for you? Donât know where to get the info? That troubles you? FIGURE IT OUT>âŚitâs REALLY not that hard.
[quote]Laissez-faire is the best of all possible business arrangements, as it means the strongest will survive. In other words, those truly good at their jobs will more often than not end up with a good arrangement over time. Whilst the posturing weaklings of limited experience will suffer, due to their limp-wristed interpersonal relationships, poor craftmanship, & inept delivery, it is most certainly a fact of life that deadwood floats downstream.
Itâs business, not education.
[/quote]
PreciselyâŚno use to anyone and no point in âhelpingâ them. FOB and want it handed to them? How does that work again? LEARN before you arrive, or become a quick study on your feet. Your choice. Sink or swim.
What CRAP!!! You WORK for the $$$$$. Quality of Life is a personal distinction. Some people LOVE making $$$$ some even LIKE their job.
Then with that $$$$$ they can AFFORD the finer things in life.
BUNK. You are poor at negotiating with your boss. PERIOD.
[quote]
But I donât underestimate the power of solidarity, thatâs my whole point. In your case, your solidarity really IS powerless. YOUR problem is that you just donât seem to realize what unions use as leverage â influence to sway large numbers of VOTERS. Hell, at least here in Taiwan you also have the option of using large amounts of cash to buy legislators. You have NEITHER, but you can bet your hairy red buttocks that your rivals, i.e. the buxiban/school owners do. Boy, do they EVER! And make absolutely NO mistake about this â to those people, you will be the ENEMY, no two ways about it. Theyâll fight you tooth and nail. Difference being, they have ammunition, leverage and knowledge of the battlefield, plus the ability and quite probably the will to seriously fuck you over, while you have NONE of those things. Back to Billy Bragg in Between the Wars: [/quote]
We also know that the vast majority are whinersâŚvery few are worth what they get paid.
Chiming inâŚYou want to get DeportedâŚGo Right AheadâŚItâs your life and idealism. Want NO part of it.
[quote]However, this kind of talk comes and goes every couple of years, and nobody ever does anything other than complain over a couple of beers. So no, I donât think there is a chance in hell of success.
Too bad, because I would like to see an organization that can keep tabs on both bad schools AND bad teachers.[/quote]
Bad teachers out themselves soon enoughâŚFired. Donât need a union for that.
Over supplyâŚyou have NO power. Nothing. Nada. Eevn if teachers were in less supplyâŚyour âpowerâ is limited. You are a GUEST in the country. You are not necessary, only tolerated.
Many schools only hire a foreigner as a sales prop. They teach 15 mins in each class to sell the IDEA of an English class taught by a foreigner. Funny stuffâŚthe chinese teachers do the REAL work. Get paid piss allâŚand the Foreigner complains about LOW WAGES? WTF?
[quote]Scott, why? Why would a foreign teachers union be âgreatâ? Iâm a foreign teacher. Iâm very happy with everything. Why in the world would I want some association hitting me up for money, making waves with my administration, and basically making my life more difficult? Can you please, please tell me how I might benefit from that?
Iâm sorry, but so far I disagree with you entirely. I agree that other foreign laborers have a rough deal here, but thatâs not my problem. I feel sorry for them, but weâre not âbrotherâs and sisterâsâ just because weâre foreigners, and I also have no pity for untrained, uninformed westerners that come here to make short-term money in buxibans and then complain about how theyâre treated.
And so I say fuck your unions. I have enough politicians trying to stick their fingers up my ass. Please keep yours to yourself. [/quote]
Ever so many Poets on this thread.
Sandman for the sheer power to illicit imagery of such colorful variety.
Barbaroomba for the grace and eloquence to cut to the quick.
OK posters, continue with the tirade via keyboard or start joining with your feet:
After meeting today with board members of the Labor Rights Association of Taiwan, an NGO which helps workers to organise to improve their conditions at work, TLTA has established the legal direction of our organization. We have been able to confirm that, as teachers and foreign workers holding ARCâs, we are not legally able to form a Trade Union, however we are able to form an Association. There is a fine legal distinction between the two, however, as an Association we will be able to begin organising collectively, to gather publicly, and even perform public protests (if that is what we choose). If members vote to in future, the other type of organisation may be commenced.
Now, knowing the legal process towards registering our organization with the Taiwanese government, we can move forward in establishing ourselves and begin total organisation formation. We will be proceeding to organise under the professional guidance of the Labor Rights Association, which you can read more about at this English website geocities.com/capitolhill/se ⌠lra-en.htm, and any information collected about prospective members will be kept strictly confidential.
Please note that a specific advantage of forming an Association at this point in time is that, unlike for a Union, your employer WILL NOT BE INFORMED of your decision to join this organization.
Our goal is clear, we have backing, and we know the legal process; for you scrollers.
for information email taiwanteachersassociation@yahoo.com
In my teaching career Iâve contributed, involuntarily I might add, to at least 3 teachers unions as far as I can recall. When I worked in California, I was forced to pay some ridiculous amount of my salary to a union, and what did I get for it? Zip. No benefits, no sick days, no overtime, no job security, nothing. Iâve been forced to pay unions in 3 states in the US. These unions are a scam. In fact, Iâve experienced a definite inverse relationship to the âqualityâ of unions Iâve been forced to contribute to, and the quality of my work benefits. In short, the âbetterâ the union (stronger, older, etc.) the worse Iâve gotten in terms of job benefits.
In terms of benefits, Iâm getting a much better deal here in Taiwan, where thankfully I donât have to belong to a union, than Iâve ever gotten in the US. Iâm not against unions and associations in theory, and I certainly encourage people to cooperate in order to improve their lot in life. Itâs just that my experience has been that unions DONâT WORK. They end up becoming power-centric, ego-driven, political organizations that only do harm by creating more paperwork and rules, two things that are rarely good. And if a union or association starts asking for money⌠be very alarmed.
But, hey, if you all want to get together in some circle jerk and share stories about how badly youâre treated, go right ahead. Iâm starting a 2 1/2 month paid vacation very soon, so Iâll have better things to do.
Another day of reading the same BS from these guysâŚ
Note the obvious:
[quote]A closed shop will NEVER happen, so all theyâll be doing is lessening their own employment prospects â who would YOU hire if you had the choice between union and non-union?
So itâll basically be the same as Aristotle and his short-lived âsecret societyâ at worst, a website listing a few useful telephone numbers and maybe with a âresident expertâ to offer consultations at best.
Happy little games but of basically no use whatsoever.[/quote]
This union crew fails to note the obvious.
A âUnionâ of whiteyâs whining about their high wage status will be laughed at more uproariously than you can imagineâŚIâm whitey and I am howling. Same shit came across my desk two years ago⌠:loco:
If you canât learn to play the gameâŚgo home. Youâre not to Fit to survive on your own here. âŚItâs really that simple.
FYI. The contract can also be worded to insert a clause stating that should the new hire at any point in time before or after be found to be a member of such an association it will be grounds for terminating the contract. They he/she will have been hired by falsifying their information.
Remember in TaiwanâŚwe can still hire based on age and genderâŚitâs not illegal. Or if it ISâŚI donât careâŚLOL
The ferocity of these attacks on those wishing to unionize/organize makes me really wonder just what the ulterior motive is of these people, that they are so scared of people wanting to form an association. I mean, no one is forcing THEM to join anything. All this talk of a âclosed shopâ is simply ridiculous! No one wants to force anything on anyone. If a group of people want to get together and organize because they believe they can get a better deal that way, then why should these other people be so concerned? It really makes me wonder if they are all buxiban owners feeling threatened by the possibility that ordinary teachers may be finally getting together to have a stronger voice. Wouldnât it be interesting to know just what their vested interest is in maintaining the status quo? They are probably already on the phone to all their buxiban owner friends, police contacts, govt officials, etc, getting the word out that we are organising, hoping they can get us deported and doing their level best to get it stopped. They would plainly love to see us deported, as some have asked us to leave the country because we âcanât take the local conditionsâ. It is unfortunate for them however that we are not likely to be deported any time soon, because we are acting fully within our rights and completely legally. What it comes down to is, we do have certain rights here in Taiwan to organize ourselves, even as foreign workers and âguestsâ as these people like to call themselves. So if we have the rights, why wouldnât we want to exercise them? If they donât want to exercise their rights, thats up to them, we are not going to forced them to, and we are not going to criticise them if they choose not to use them. But surely we should not be criticised for wanting to exercise ours?
Anyone reading this thread should be aware that many of the people contributing the strongly negative commentary (and we do know who they are) have vested interests in maintaining the status quo. If youâre a buxiban owner, doing quite well thank you from the existing system, I guess I can understand that you donât want anything to change. But some of us here are interested in making positive changes, and are here as teachers wanting to do quality teaching, not just make a quick buck from running businesses that parade as education providers but are really nothing more than slick marketing operations exploiting a population that feels under pressure to educate their kids at all costs and make easy prey for these bloodsucking mercenaries.
Change is coming⌠the workers in this industry now have an opportunity to organize and make positive changes to improve Taiwanâs education system. Lets see which of us actively oppose it, and see if we can find their ulterior motives for doing so.
LOLâŚdoesnât require being active at all in opposition.
âŚlots of blah blah and BSâŚthen you 3 will start back biting, pissing on each otherâŚand all falls apart. shrugs Thatâs even if freegaynhappy, lb and kwaz666 are not one and the sameâŚlolJ Just fishing Fcom to see if you can potentially nab a few other whiners?
in short, who the hell would want to be associated with that?
The organization of a group of WhinersâŚlovelyâŚWho cares?
âExerciseâ all the Rights you want. Just donât make an utter embarrassment of yourself in the process. Taiwanese paint with a very wide brushâŚI want nothing of your BS in any way associated with myself as a foreigner. Keep your garbage FAR from the general Populace and I donât care if you sink or swim. you will sinkâŚthatâs as leaky a boat of reasons to establish a Whinerâs Org. as ever I have seen.
If you TEACH, whether it be in the back of a hotel through a hidden entrance or an illegal BuxibanâŚdo your job well, take your money and shut up. You donât pay taxesâŚso whatâs your problem? You can quit at the drop of a hat, leave without warning. Free agents.
Whatâs your REAL beef?
If you think the system is tyrannical NOWâŚyou can thank the previous generations of crap/ transients for teachers for the tightening of the legal system. Buxibans got tired of being screwed over by whitey. Go figure!
If you honestly believe that a âTeacherâs Unionâ to promote better âWorking conditions and higher payâ for doing piss all for the most part is gonna flyâŚyou are seriously deluded. the âUnionizing of ESL teachersâ sound like nothing more than the senseless ramblings of a crack addictâŚ
Do you even have the vaguest shadowy sliver of a clue what an AnChing Ban teacher makes? She/ He has to PREPARE all the materials. Make sure the kids are actually doing WELL in their REAL school or they get canned. Do you want to consider all the unpaid hours they put in? Whitey wonât move his ASS unless there is $$$ slapped on the table. Who the heck would want to support that sort of Lazy , pompous , false sense of entitlement?
Not the Taiwanese.
âŚnor myself for that matter.
So what you know who a few people who disagree with you are. Looks like a veiled threat to me.
It just seems that some do not want to be associated with your not yet registered association. Nothing worng iwth that.
Freedom of expression it seems. Certainly I dont need a union or association.
Youâve heard of the term âugly Americanâ? Because some Americans traveling overseas act like ethnocentric, arrogant pigs, many people will judge all Americans by that behavior. So you come to Taiwan, stomp around complaining about pay and work conditions that you think are unfair, yet by Taiwanese standards are quite generous. Taiwanese might also judge all foreign EFL teachers by your actions. I would rather not have to fight the stigma of being a disgruntled, pampered foreign EFL teacher.
Are you threatening me? Have you already lined up your âenforcersâ?
Since when have unions been about anything other than collective bargaining? While it doesnât mean it doesnât happen somewhere, in my experience Iâve never seen a union promote quality anything. Their only purpose was to get more for itâs members.
As a non-teacher living in Taiwan I really have to scratch my head when I read posts like this. All teachers come here 100% voluntarily, many with little or no qualifications making double to triple times the average Taiwanese salary. On top of that work half the hours of the average Taiwanese. The sense of entitlement some of you have is bewildering. To steal a quote from an old basketball coach and make it for this situation â you should be required to work a month in a Filipino factory here, month as a cab driver, finish it off with the average office worker working 12 hour days only then be allowed to teach English in Taiwan.
People should be concerned because youâre pulling the wool over their eyes. You have yet to offer a single, solitary example of how you plan to âget a better deal.â
Whether its out of ignorance or design, youâre behaving like charlatans, trying to dupe the uninformed with the idea that youâre actually doing something constructive when you are not.
Yet more ignorant obsfucation and misleading tripe â most of the people making negative commentary are doing so because they simply disagree with you and feel that the more naive among us should be given both sides of the coin so they can make up their own minds. Youâre just pissed off because every.single.poster. apart from â the three supporters/organizers â disagree totally that you can provide ANYTHING of value whatsoever.
Furthermore Einstein, unlike yourself, most of us have NO
âvested interest.â Most of us, in fact, are not even in the teaching business. The only reason most of us are posting here is because Forumosa is designed as a resource for expats, a source of collective knowledge, and when we see phoneys (or well-meaning but deluded idealists) trying to foist their nonsense on other, perhaps inexperienced and naive new arrivals, we will point out the obvious and ensure that such people are aware of what they might be getting into. Which in this particular case is absolutely nothing, now that youâve finally agreed with us that a union is not possible. One down. Itâll be interesting to see how long it takes you to realize that our other arguments are ALSO spot-on, while yours are bunkum.[/quote]
Iâm sorry but your goal is not clear. But more significantly, it is not clear at all how you intend to achieve the vaguely stated goals on your Yahoo club site. Does your groups advocate the use of violence against employers and the ROC? Or do just plan on telling employees when theyâre being unfairly treated and that they should phone the CLA? Perhaps if readers had a clearer idea of what you plan on being able to do for them, your Yahoo club could attract more than 7 members.
My dear friend Sandman is utterly wrong that an English teacherâs union would have to be a closed shop. In fact, this whole thread is some of the most ill-informed opinions I have seen on forumosa. There are English teachers who have joined unions in Japan. These unions were well-established and well-organized before English teachers joined them. They had vast experience organizing workers. The General Union at Berlitz is not a closed shop. The General Union at Berlitz has made a difference to many of their teachers. And as I have said, when I taught in Japan from 1989 to 1994, I used to hear all the same slop about why the English teachers could not unionize. It was wrong about Japan and itâs wrong about Taiwan.
But I would like our friends with the Yahoo club to tell us what exactly they plan on being able to do for me that makes any difference? How will they pay for any of this? How do they plan to deal with legal problems that could arise? How do they intend to convince poor employers to change their employment practices? What will they do if a buxiban fired teachers who join their âassociationâ or Yahoo club? Why is their âassociationâ and Yahoo club any different from Aristotle or the Bamboo Union?
These are real questions and their answers would convince more than me that theyâve thought through this and that itâs more than a pick up line to convince girls theyâre more than a bunch of English teachers. Or more to the point, that they wonât close up and run away the second they run into trouble or get a little bit bored.
And on a final note, it is interesting to see that youâre adopting this North Korea-tone to the lack of support youâre receiving here. It not lack of informationâŚitâs not poor communicationâŚitâs not the bad planningâŚno, no, noâŚitâs a conspiracy of vested interests.
I suppose that I can understand since you are not an English teacher, you might not know that this comment is entirely incorrect. In fact, the highest paid educators in Taiwan are local teachers who work at major chain cram schools. There are many local teachers at buxibans who make as much or more than foreign English teachers.
But in spite of your factual inaccuracy on this point, I have to presume you also hold the same position concerning professional organizations such as the AMA or even business chambers of commerce. And since you seem to be advocating that the no one has a right to ask for better working or living conditions, I also have to presume you donât have a problem with slavery or indentured labor. Or is it just that unless you are a slave you should keep your mouth shut and be grateful that you have anything?