Sat TV, you should be watching the All Blacks spank the pommies. Too one-sided? I would if I had coverage.
Perhaps you have found a more entertaining sport = newbie teacher union wannabe baiting! 
Party on digger! 
[quote=āalmas johnā]Sat TV, you should be watching the All Blacks spank the pommies. Too one-sided? I would if I had coverage.
Perhaps you have found a more entertaining sport = newbie teacher union wannabe baiting!
Party on digger! [/quote]
Yes have been watching the best rugby team being the All Blacks crush those wilted roses.
Was hoping you would have come up to see. A right thrashing. 
PS my missues supports the ABās so she could have imparted some rugby knowledge about her favourite man Dan Carter to your missus. You know how woman areā¦ I donāt believe they watching the rugby at all. 
You wipe your arse with beer? You Scots are weird.
So this is what all the dire secrecy is about. Knock yourselves out!
Lots of what-ifs, painfully short on the hows and wherefores.
[quote]Purpose:
- To represent our members in industrial relations matters
- To improve the standards of schools and teachers in Taiwan so that Taiwanese may become more proficient in the English language
- To set a standard for minimum wages and conditions for teachers
- To investigate cases of exploitation of members
- To provide a spokesperson who can speak on behalf of the members, and therefore the EFL teachers of Taiwan.
- To increase the transparency of school operations by collecting data about schools and compiling a database of information to assist members in finding out about schools they wish to work at.
- To provide social and networking opportunities for teachers
- To educate teachers about their workplace rights in Taiwan
- To provide āwelcome packsā to new teachers to give them all the necessary info about working here to prevent them falling in
Taiwan Language Teachers Association
Frequently Asked Questions
We have received many questions from teachers about the specifics of how this organization will operate and have therefore attempted to provide some answers where possible. However, the founders, who have no mandate beyond establishing the legal framework, wish to point out that this organization is being established according to democratic principles upon which the members themselves must decide the organizationĀ”Ā¦s policy, not the founders. Therefore, in answering these questions, we the founders will attempt to describe some of the possibilities of an organization like this, but want it to be known that these answers do not constitute organizational policy at this stage.
About this Organization
- Who is behind TLTA and how do we know that you are genuinely acting in the interests of language teachers? What are your aims?
At this founding stage, we are a small group of teachers, not involved in school management or ownership, who are meeting weekly to set up the legal foundations of an organization. Initially we aim to establish an organization that will:
(1) assist language teachers with their problems in Taiwan, welcome parties. networking, employment information, and industrial relations issues related to their employment in Taiwan;
(2) organize currently un-represented language teachers in Taiwan into a collective body capable of making collective, democratic decisions;
(3) represent and give a voice to private sector language teachers in Taiwan in order to improve the terms and conditions for language teachers and to improve standards in the language teaching industry in general.
Our identities are understandably confidential at this stage because, without an organized workers body to provide any industrial leverage for protection of our jobs, we are still vulnerable to repercussions from employers if our identities were known. We are organizing with the assistance and supervision of the Taiwanese Labor Rights Association and therefore if you require any assurance of the intent of the founders you may contact this organization. Their English website is at geocities.com/capitolhill/se ā¦ lra-en.htm
Until our organization is officially registered we are operating informally through our yahoo group website. You are not required to divulge your identity when joining this group, but we will ask you some questions to ascertain your interest in joining.
-
Who is membership open to?
Membership of TLTA is open to all private sector, non-managerial, language teachers in Taiwan. Members may be Taiwanese or foreigners. They may be teaching English or any other language. Public sector teachers have their own separate organization, the Teachers Association, to represent their interests (membership of which is not open to private sector employees). TLTA is a workers organization and therefore only teachers who are NOT involved in school ownership or management may be members. School owners/managers have their own separate organizations. -
Are there any existing workersĀ”Ā¦ organizations for private sector language teachers in Taiwan?
No, the founders are not aware of any other workersĀ”Ā¦ organizations in Taiwan for private sector, non-managerial, language teachers. If there were one we would join it. -
Why is this association only for teachers and not for school owners/managers? DonĀ”Ā¦t we need to involve all parties in this organization if we want to influence/change the system?
As a democratic workers organization aiming to act in the interests of ordinary workers and bound by the decisions of its members, there would be a direct conflict of interest if school owners and managers were admitted and allowed to determine policy. The only way to avoid this is to exclude their membership. School owners and managers have their own organizations to represent them, so they donĀ”Ā¦t need to join ours. Yes, we agree the TLTA should work with all parties to influence/change the system, but this can be done on an organization-to-organization basis, in which elected, representative TLTA delegates can meet with employer, community and government groups whenever necessary and reach agreements in line with agreed TLTA policy. Currently there is no body representing language teachers in Taiwan and therefore no such meetings can take place. -
How will this organization recruit members?
We roughly and conservatively estimate there to be more than 10,000 language teachers throughout Taiwan, though without an association to represent them this figure is hard to ascertain exactly. We intend to recruit through our website, participation in online forums, distribution of leaflets to places of employment, word of mouth, attendance and stalls at relevant industry/worker events, media releases, publicity, and when funds are available, advertising. -
How much will membership dues be? How will it pay for its expenses?
This will be very much up to the members to decide, depending on what type and size of organization they wish to build. A small organization run on volunteer efforts and meeting a minimum of needs could operate on as little as around NT400 per year membership fees, while a large organization operating premises and employing some locals in administrative positions might require something like possibly NT$4-6,000 per year. It is too early to predict what the costs of an organization like this would be, but whatever is decided will be voted on and agreed by the members. -
What experience and connections do the founders of this organization have that can ensure its success in Taiwan?
We are all teachers, we are all committed to the cause of establishing a representative body for teachers. Some of our relevant skills and experiences include: union organizing, management, human and workers rights campaigning. At least one of us has been campaigning in this area for many years in Taiwan and therefore we have good contacts in workers rights organizations and political circles. Undoubtedly with tens of thousands of potential members throughout the island we will find many more members with even more useful experience, skills and contacts. -
What are the goals of your organization? What is your vision?
The founders envision a democratic workersĀ”Ā¦ organization, please refer to Q1. Individually and personally we each have a vision for this organization but we do not seek to impose our vision on others, preferring to allow the organization to develop organically according to the wishes of the members. We will seek to influence the direction in accordance with democratic principles with no greater or lesser opportunity to do so than any other member. We are happy to discuss our visions with other members at a face to face level but feel it would be inappropriate and against the interests of the democratic development of the organization to express more broadly our individual views to the general public.
TLTA FAQ 2nd installment only
-
How will TLTA be different from ETA-ROC?
There is very little information available in English on the internet about ETA-ROC (English Language Teachers Association of the Republic of China) but it appears to be an association mainly aimed at Taiwanese English language teachers, open to anyone in the industry, whether teacher, manager or owner, whose purpose is to enhance professional development by means of hosting conferences and book fairs. It appears to have no mandate to assist teachers with industrial relations matters. It seems to have a very low membership and attendance rate amongst foreign teachers. But for any teachers interested in professional development and networking this appears to be the group to join. The founders of TLTA do not want to reproduce ETA-ROC, and envisage that TLTA will exist to assist teachers with industrial relations matters. -
Whatās your mandate and how will you affect that mandate?
Until TLTA formally registers as a legal organization (which it is in the process of doing), it has no mandate, and is simply an organization being founded, which seeks to address a need in the English teaching industry perceived by the founders. We hope to amass the required number of members to formally register, hold elections, develop policy and then affect the mandate that has been determined democratically by our membership. -
What leverage will this organization have to change things?
The simple answer to this is, a lot more than we have now! Currently English language teachers are not industrially organized in any way and therefore we only exist as individuals with very little negotiating power in the greater scheme of things. It is currently impossible for the government or the industry to enter discussion or negotiate with us as teachers, because we do not exist in any mass collective, representative form that would make such meetings possible. Once organized, these types of discussions and negotiations do become possible.
By collecting together, identifying our common cause, setting goals, and pursuing strategies to achieve those goals, in common purpose, we can create leverage that can assist teachers in any negotiating situation in our work places and in our industry. Workersā strength always lies in our sheer numbers, organization and ability to take mass action if required. The simple existence of organization is usually sufficient to avert the need to actually take action. As in international relations, diplomacy is backed up by the ability to take military action as an absolute last resort, but without the military organization, diplomacy has no teeth and is ineffective. The existence of our organization will not only facilitate and enhance our ability to negotiate with our bosses, but will also give teeth to our individual and collective negotiations. -
If I join this organization will my employer find out and will I get sacked? Is there any protection for union members under Taiwanese law?
No, currently we exist as a Yahoo group, where your membership can be completely anonymous and no one needs to know you have joined up. All our membership information is held confidentially and will not be released to any other individual or organization. When we register as an Association we must provide the government administering body with a list of ONLY our founding members details but these are NOT passed on to employers. If we were founding a Trade Union, these details WOULD be passed on to employers, but there ARE laws to protect members of trade unions from unfair treatment or discrimination due to union membership. Therefore, employers CANNOT find out about your membership of TLTA unless you tell them yourself. -
If I am a member of this organization will prospective employers reject my application for employment?
Neither prospective nor current employers cannot find out about your membership of this organization unless you tell them yourself. -
Where is your registered office? How can I sign up?
Currently we are in the process of registering, which requires us to obtain 30 founding members before we can apply. This does not mean we are illegal, we are just not officially recognized yet. Therefore we do not have a registered office where you can visit or sign up. You may sign up however at our Yahoo group website and help us to get registered. groups.yahoo.com/group/tlta/
The Role of this Organisation
- What benefits will this organization provide to its members? What would a union do?
As a democratic organization still forming, the members of TLTA can make it into whatever they want at this stage. The founders envisage it being an association primarily to organize teachers into a democratic structure, which can then assist with members industrial relations issues in a host of different ways. The extent to which it does that depends upon what level of organization is achieved. Some possible functions at different potential levels of organization are listed below:
Yahoo group
ā¢ collect initial membership information to enable further registration process
ā¢ provide basic employment information to teachers
ā¢ facilitate discussion of subjects within yahoo group membership circle
Registered Association
-
Industrial Relations Issues:
ā¢ facilitate member teachers meetings to discuss IR policy and strategy
ā¢ set IR policy according to Constitution and membersā decisions
ā¢ issue media releases on subjects relevant to language teachers
ā¢ set up committees to research and report back on specific issues
ā¢ establish comprehensive website to enhance our aim and strategies
ā¢ provision of comprehensive employment and IR information to members and public through website and printed material
ā¢ ongoing industrial organization of language teachers to strengthen our aims
ā¢ lobbying of government and industry groups on behalf of members
ā¢ participation at conferences, exhibitions, seminars, etc
ā¢ research and recommendations into best IR practices in Taiwan workplaces including compensation plans and associated conditions of work.
ā¢ Organizing public demonstrations and rallies to bring attention to membersā issues when appropriate and agreed by the members. -
Other Issues:
Some suggestions from teachers as to other activities the association could be involved in so far include:
ā¢ Lobbying the government for change through examination of best practices worldwide
ā¢ provide information and counseling to teachers
ā¢ publicize abuses
ā¢ facilitate training and a self-improvement ethos
ā¢ to upgrade the entire teaching environment, from both the teacher and school sides, to obtain some respect, and quality of life in our jobs.
ā¢ Development of membersā teaching skills
ā¢ networking with other teachers and potential employers
ā¢ liaising with government agencies & employers.
Trade Union
ā¢ entering into formal negotiations with employers and employer groups to establish a legal set of minimum terms and conditions for language teachers (an industrial award)
ā¢ enforcement of industrial awards by sanctioned industrial actions
ā¢ formal representation of members when requested in industrial relations matters in the workplace and in courts and tribunals
ā¢ formal investigation of complaints against both members and employers
-
Will the Association be calling strikes and street protests, creating problems for teachers and generally giving foreign teachers a bad name?
As a democratic organization, the Association would act strictly in compliance with members wishes and would call for direct action measures only after careful consideration, consultation with, and official sanction by, members. The Association would in general be prepared to act within the law to conduct whatever direct actions were deemed appropriate in each situation and would be doing so in the name of its members only, not on behalf of the entire language teaching community. -
Can an Association/Union help improve educational standards in Taiwan?
Yes we believe it can do this by providing language teachers with a collective voice that will enable them, in a representative way, to participate in discussions, meetings, conferences and reform programs, with government and employer groups, that we as individuals could not be involved in without such an organization.
Currently, without a collective voice, we are unable to participate and are specifically excluded from any and all such discussions that take place between government and industry. This Association will therefore give us a collective voice and the right to a seat at that table with government and bosses. We believe that language teachers themselves are in the best position to know what is best for students, at least at a practical, classroom and syllabus level, and therefore by being involved in discussions we can influence them and obtain positive outcomes that improve educational standards in Taiwan. Our present exclusion from discussions, due to our lack of collective voice and seat at the table, probably guarantees declining educational standards in Taiwan because our voice and influence is non existent and therefore direction is being dictated mainly by the concerns of profit rather than educational quality.[/quote]
Skimming through the collective bargaining bullshit and the rubbish about āsetting a minimum wageā for teachers, the italic part jumps out ā thatās right, folks! These guys are aiming to represent YOU!
There is a minimum wage already, isnāt there?
[quote=āsandmanā]So this is what all the dire secrecy is about. Knock yourselves out!
Lots of what-ifs, painfully short on the hows and wherefores.
Skimming through the collective bargaining bullshit and the rubbish about āsetting a minimum wageā for teachers, the italic part jumps out ā thatās right, folks! These guys are aiming to represent YOU![/quote]
They keep on mentioning UNION all through this. What right to seat at that table with what government and what bosses?
IR Best practicesā¦ keep that in OZ will youā¦ does not compute up here lol
Yeah lets set a minumum wage that all locals and foriegn teachers get paid equally for doing the same job, Basic starts at about NT$280 an hour for on the job training, at least 3 months Iād say.
Then you can get paid NT$350 - NT$400 an hour so that we are not being predjudiced in favour of foreignersā¦ got to stamp out the racist elements of expats are better than the locals. Other locals conditions already set out under Taiwanese law.
Ah yes I can see this association gettting lots of local teachers in to protest about unequals pay and conditions compared to their foreign brethren. A real shocker they will outnumber the foreigners 5 to 1.
Then all of the school owners will happily frop our student fees. A great boon to society is achieved.
OH YEAH 
:bravo: :bravo: :bravo:
Being a good hearted old Taiwan hand, I thought to myself, I should help this lads at the taiwanteachersassociation out by at least joining their little Yahoo Group. When I did I noticed (this was about a week back) they had a grand total of three members (me joining raised it to four; which I presume was the massive groundswell of membership they referred to in earlier posts.)
I kind of laugh and forget about it. Then a day later I get this in the email:
Hey
Saturday, June 14, 2008 8:15 AM
From: ātaiwanteachersassociationā taiwanteachersassociation@yahoo.com
To: brianlkennedy@yahoo.com
Hey thanks for joining, can you attend our weekly meetings or annual
meeting in July?
It immediately draws two extremely negative responses from me. First, I am 50 years old, some fucking kid does not address me in his opening email with āheyā. And then no signature, no nothing. So now I think of them not as simply pathetic, but as pathetic idiots.
I simply flip it in the e-trash. A day or so goes by and I get this:
NEW MEMBER SURVEY
Thanks for joining the Taiwan Language Teachers Association yahoo
group. We are in the process of building a new organization to help
language teachers in Taiwan with their industrial relations issues
and generally improve the conditions and working environment for
teachers here. In order to help us do that, and to ascertain whether
this organization can help you, would you please take a few moments
to answer the following short joining survey.
- Why did you join this group?
- Where did you hear about this group?
- Are you a language teacher currently working in the private sector
in Taiwan? - Are you involved in the management or ownership of any language
schools here in Taiwan? Please note that this organization is
intended for non-managerial teachers only. - Bearing in mind the broad aims of the group above, what sorts of
things do you think this organization should do for itās members? - Any other comments?
Thanks for your co-operation. Please keep in touch with us and look
out for further bulletins as we build this new organization.
Regards,
The Founders
This is a mild improvement. They have learned the vocablulary words please and thank you (taught to many American children at 3 or 4 years of age) but still no signature (The Founders is not a fucking signature, are these yoyos such chickenshits that they do not sign their own emailsābut they are going to stand up for teachers rights in Taiwanābullshit.). So, I flip that in the e-trash too.
Then this morning I got this missive:
From: ātaiwanteachersassociationā taiwanteachersassociation@yahoo.com
To: brianlkennedy@yahoo.com
Please resond to our survey, or we will remove you from the site.
To which I replied thus:
Dear Taiwan Teachers Association,
Feel free to remove me from the site. If you claim to be english teachers then you should know the basics of letter writingā¦for example a letter starts with
Dear Mr. Kennedy
and ends with
āsincerelyā
and some real persons name.
This is particularly true when you are asking a stranger for help and, to put it crudely, after having lived in Taiwan for 15 years and taught law both at Soo Chow Law School and for the Ministry of Justice and having published, in Chinese, two law textbooks (one on witness examination and on legal ethics) that are in standard use in both law schools and the Judge and Prosecutors Training Institute; I could give a fucking rats ass if you drop me from your list.
You clowns got a lot to learn.
sincerely
Brian L. Kennedy
Nitpicking their letter writing style misses the point.
There is no need for a native speaking EFL teacherās union. Weāre not downtrodden or enslaved. Our pay is fair, considering the marketplace in Taiwan. A union is going to be considered a joke by the citizens of Taiwan. Organizing a transient population of people mostly looking to make a few bucks while hanging out in a foreign country would be an enormous task, especially considering the large number of small employers all over the island. It is an exercise in futility.
Craig, you are wrong that unions are needed only when there is grave inequality between employees and employers. In fact, this is a point that you seem to share with the pseudo-unionites and it is why they have descended into this pseudo-Marxist Cold War union talk. There are many occupational groups that have representation despite having no real issues with oppression. They function well and operate as an effective method of communicating employee interests and problems to employers. If you read the post on my blog in which I interview Dave Jobson who, as an English teacher, was an official for the General Union in Japan, you would see some examples.
Many of the problems that we hear about unions occur when governments impose a regulatory bias on a marketplace. For example, non-Taiwanese who teach at national universities in Taiwan were able to qualify for national school teachers pensions until sometime in the 1990s. As Dr. Brian Phillips pointed out on my blog, some had been contributing to this pension for a long time and suddenly it vanished.
I think much of the problem with this discussion is a lack of detailed description of the language teaching market. Most commercial language schools in Taiwan are small family-run organizations. Their survival depends on flexibility. I can understand that other small businessmen and women would sympathize with this situation and feel unions have little to offer these employees. This is almost certainly one of the reasons why in Japan there is no English teachers union, per say. English teachers are organized as part of the General Union which organizes a large number of workers in a broad range of industries. If we go back to the first post in this thread, kwak666 links to an article that talks about AJET as an example of teacher labour organizations. AJET is nothing of the sort. They have no power to call for job site action or any other actions that discipline their employers. In fact, JET contracts last only a limited time and as such AJET acts much like an alumni association.
My point is that the language teaching industry is so diverse that English teachers have less in common with each other than they do with some workers in other industries. There is no need for an āEnglish teacherās unionā, but there is need for employee representation in some workplaces that employ English teachers.
All of this makes me wonder about the motives of our pseudo-unionites. They donāt seem to have even the slightest conception of the existing organizations that deal with English teachers. They are completely confused about ETA-ROC and didnāt even seem to know about it until I told them. They canāt seem to tell the difference between a company-owned organization like AJET and a real union like the General Union - which they also seemed unaware organized English teachers. Their Yahoo group manifesto is vague and undirected. They seem obsessed with secrecy. I almost wonder if at their secret meeting you have to wear a mask and use a code name. I once compared them to an underground crime gang. I now think a better comparison would be to a religious cult or even a terrorist cell.
But in all honesty, I really wonder about their motives. Are they trying to gather enough people together that they can start issuing threats to vulnerable family business owners? Do they hope to challenge the government with force? This all sounds stupid, as if I was just trying to make fun of them, but I am serious. After all, an anonymous group of people start a group (club, gang) with no identifiable goal, no believable means of achieving any goal at all, refuse to answer any information about themselves or their group (club, gang), and then in all sincerity start quoting Karl Marx.
I disagree. After all, they plan to be representing YOU, according to the bumph I posted above. Will you be happy knowing that your interests are being āprotectedā by some bozo who shows up at a meeting with government officials and buxiban association representatives (god, Iām chuckling already) and opens with āHey DUDES! Like, thereās like a shitloā¦ I mean a whole lot of uncool stuff going on with our members yo!ā
Their letter-writing style tells a great deal about them.
I disagree. After all, they plan to be representing YOU, according to the bumph I posted above. Will you be happy knowing that your interests are being āprotectedā by some bozo who shows up at a meeting with government officials and buxiban association representatives (god, Iām chuckling already) and opens with āHey DUDES! Like, thereās like a shitloā¦ I mean a whole lot of uncool stuff going on with our members yo!ā
Their letter-writing style tells a great deal about them.[/quote]They say that their aims are to provide a spokesperson. They donāt say who that would be. Perhaps theyāre hoping to recruit someone who has a better writing style.
These two points about are among the most insightful comments Iāve seen on this thread, and the most rightfully damaging to the idea of this āunion.ā As Iāve read this thread, and so many other comments and threads about English teaching in Taiwan, Iāve been struck by the obvious fact that many people who write about English teachers in Taiwan seems to have no idea that there is more than one kind of teacher, more than one kind of educational environment, more than one kind of business context. As Scott points out here, English teaching in Taiwan is extremely diverse, and I feel that this type of āunionā is wrongheaded.
Whatever, Joe. All I know is that if I were a teacher, Iād be a bit hesitant about entrusting my career benefits to someone who at best lacks even the basics with regard to correspondence, at worst is functionally illiterate, especially since theyāve already shown themselves to lack even a basic grasp of owning the medium. You want to be represented by people with such a poor ability to get their (YOUR) message across?
Tomas, while I appreciate you calling my post insightful, I suppose Iām getting dragged in this weird world of forumosa name calling. If I may put all the anti-union forumosa posters into one group, they are just the opposite side of the coin from the pseudounionist. Both of you have the same out Cold War Marxist vision of big unions.
Please, have a look at what real unions that really represent real foreign English teachers in Asia really do. Iāve listed some important links in my posts here and on my blog. If you want more information, Iāll be happy to help you or anyone out. Our whacko pseudo-unionites are wrong because they havenāt got a clue about the difference between a democratic trade union and a terrorist cell. But please, donāt say thereās no need for such an association before youāve actually looked at whatās really going on.
[quote=āsandmanā]Whatever, Joe. All I know is that if I were a teacher, Iād be a bit hesitant about entrusting my career benefits to someone who at best lacks even the basics with regard to correspondence, at worst is functionally illiterate, especially since theyāve already shown themselves to lack even a basic grasp of owning the medium. You want to be represented by people with such a poor ability to get their (YOUR) message across?[/quote]I agree that their current communications arenāt very good. But theyāve only just started this thing. Iām sure there are plenty of organizations that started with less-than-professional communications.
If I were a teacher who had joined this group, I would try to make sure that the two original founders stopped acting as its public spokesmen. As itās supposed to be democratic in some way, presumably thereād be a chance of that.
Not that I do hold much hope for the future of the group. But if they want to have any chance of success, perhaps they need to focus on the more fundamental problems they have first, and work on refining their writing style later. They wonāt be able to communicate clearly in any case until they have some clear ideas to get across.
[quote=āScottSommersā]Tomas, while I appreciate you calling my post insightful, I suppose Iām getting dragged in this weird world of forumosa name calling. If I may put all the anti-union forumosa posters into one group, they are just the opposite side of the coin from the pseudounionist. Both of you have the same out Cold War Marxist vision of big unions.
Please, have a look at what real unions that really represent real foreign English teachers in Asia really do. Iāve listed some important links in my posts here and on my blog. If you want more information, Iāll be happy to help you or anyone out. Our whacko pseudo-unionites are wrong because they havenāt got a clue about the difference between a democratic trade union and a terrorist cell. But please, donāt say thereās no need for such an association before youāve actually looked at whatās really going on.[/quote]
Iāve edited my post so as to lessen the extent to which you are dragged into making a point for me. I did in fact mean that the union being discussed in this thread causes me a great deal of pause. My apologies.
I admit that I am not fully aware of all of the benefits of union organizations. Truth be told, it isnāt a topic that Iāve ever been very interested in, as it has never been very relevant to my life.
I already recommended Sandman.
But hey, where are our darling Association repsā¦ seem to have gone quiet. Maybe they are getting the Association registered?
Theyāre over at Daveās ESL site. Calling himself āgrowl.ā Even less info there than here, if thatās even possible.
Little kiddies playing around is all ā itās becoming more and more apparent.
Seems the membership numbers have been dropping as well