Hold on! I have no misconceptions about what organized labor can achieve. But these people are talking about a wee private club of folks who have no idea about how to go about things and appear to have absolutely no desire to learn. This complete refusal to even consider advice and warnings from people with knowledge and experience is what makes them such a dubious proposition.
They’re trying to reinvent the wheel but all they have to work from is a blueprint of an elephant. And its rolled up and locked in a cupboard for which they don’t have a key.
And what makes it such a joke is that they don’t even have the gumption to figure this out, and anyone who dares to point out the obvious is branded “the opposition.”
I’m sure they will figure out why they can’t succeed eventually, but not until they’re wasted a bunch of naive peoples’ time and energy.
Then I owe you an apology. I agree completely.
Wow. Evil flashback!
Perhaps they could ditch the union idea, and set up an English-language radio station aimed at the expat population. 
An apology? Tell me, can I wipe my arse with an apology? No sir I cannot. A beer. A beer you owe me.
Really? please quote me with a complaint about that
Here you go again speaking on behalf of people yet have it completely fooked up.
Please show me where I have complained about the Buxiban assocation. I eagerly await your reply with the alleged quote.
AS for your FAQ… It is not shown on your website to non members. As school owners cannot be members of your mythical association I take it to be myth as well.
On my own forum I have an FAQ for non members. forum.taiwansatellite.tv/index.php
It is easy to read and clearly open to all. I don’t hide behind some yahoo club group.
Get yourself legally registered, get up your website and teachers forum so you can have open debates with your newly found forum members.
The social pressure…it’s too much for me. I agree. I owe you a beer next time we collide with each other.
Taiwan… the white man’s Babylon.
Get up, stand up: stand up for your rights!
Yes you might achieve a lot. Like making teachers earn the legal minumum wage.
Now wouldn’t that be fun for your association members. The market here as in any country detemins the hourly salaries offered. Health insurance is there. For many so are paid vacations.
Many teachers prefer to be paid hourly and not get paid vacations. Some prefer a fixed monthly salary with all the benefits that come with that like paid vacations etc etc. Perhaps you might actually bother to look at the employment laws before you decide your members are really not doing well, especially compared to their local counteparts.
It would be fair if all EFL teachers ware paid the same rates yes? IF so then I can see hourly wages dropping to the NT$350 or NT$400 an hour the locals get. That would be fair for all your association members… after all it is open to all teachers foreign and local as you say.
I’ve been watching this debate for some time. I initially felt sorry for the fellows setting this association up, thought it felt like another case of Forumosa bullying.
I’ve changed my mind.
I think that aside from the question of whether such an organization would actually benefit anyone, which I have no comment on at this point, there is the question of whether its founders have the skill to manage its public relations. I think the defensiveness and tendency to snarl back when a lighter touch would be much more effective shows the lack of seasoning on the part of those who are working to found this organization.
If you have a vested interest in getting people to like and support you, you have to know how to communicate with them in a way that doesn’t turn them off, even when you feel that they are attacking you. There are a few business owners who post on Forumosa who are so abrasive and/or defensive in their online incarnations that I’d seriously hesitate to engage in any sort of business with them.
In other words, if you can’t manage your relations with the somewhat jaded veterans on this website, who are actually trying to help you, I don’t think you’ll be able to do much with this organization. Have a good think about whether you’re actually up to the task.
For an example of someone with the ability to handle discussion board PR with finesse and maturity, check out the Alleycat’s threads. The founder of the company is a master.
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
Yeah right. Good luck with your new found negotiating skills on behalf of your members.
[quote=“Tomas”]. There are a few business owners who post on Forumosa who are so abrasive and/or defensive in their online incarnations that I’d seriously hesitate to engage in any sort of business with them.
In other words, if you can’t manage your relations with the somewhat jaded veterans on this website, who are actually trying to help you, I don’t think you’ll be able to do much with this organization. Have a good think about whether you’re actually up to the task.
For an example of someone with the ability to handle discussion board PR with finesse and maturity, check out the Alleycat’s threads. The founder of the company is a master.[/quote]
We are all just diamonds in the rough. I am in a tough business environment. Many similar of my competitors have fallen by the wayside. But take a look around at my commercial clients ( including Alleycats, Tavern, Carnegies, Brass Monkey, On Tap, American Club, Pig and Whistles, etc etc ) as they are in the public domain. They remain my clients as I provide excellent services. Quality of service is more important than being the most popular usless git on the planet.
As for my own forum’s, you won’t find any bitch fests on there as it is serviced orientated. Same for Alleycats.
So maybe we are a bit abrasive, but that hasn’t come easily. It was hard learnt lessons of being the few masters of our own destinies on my little rock here. 20 years of being in Taiwan and several more years in Asia and I have seen many come and go.
I have clients who ask my why my NT$2000 an hour work (NT$3,000 after 6pm ) rate is far above that of English teachers. I just tell them go find an English teacher to do the job then 
There are many English teachers who can do a far better jon of teaching than I. They are professionals in their field and I’m a professional in mine.
[quote=“dangerousapple”]I’m a school owner, and proud to be one. I’m also a teacher, and was one for 10 years here before I opened up my own school.
Anyway, until you understand that there are both GOOD school owners and BAD teachers, you’ll just be a bunch of loudmouths understanding only half the story. Good luck to you though.[/quote]
There have been many good teachers working in bad schools as well. But they tend not to stay in bad schools very long.
Life is like that. But you have been through both I expect and thats why you now run a succeful business. I say business as we run a business first. It just happens to involve teaching English.
Also on these forums you should not all take yourselves so seriously. Don’t post when you are emotional, drunk, on drugs, or just after your wife has bull whipped you into submission.
Tomas, I understand your initial feeling, and I’m glad you find some merit in what’s going on here. I don’t know how long you’ve been in Taiwan, but one of the lessons of time is the bizarre cast of characters that frequent on-line forums here.
Initially, I was quite sympathetic to their suggestions about the organization of English teachers. As I’ve pointed out, support for labour is a genetic thing for me. That was until they started taking on the appearance of an underground crime organization. Then they started using pseudo-Marxist phrases and revolutionary terms written in Spanish, as if worker’s groups are somehow necessarily linked to Cold War-style communism. It’s offensive to people who genuinely support worker and human rights, as well as showing a lack of insight into the historical situation of Taiwan.
The truth is, deep inside, I still suspect it’s a bunch of kids in Wisconsin smoking dope and trying to get us all excited about their posts. Viva Taiwan, is that what they said? Come off it, guys. As if anyone here would be impressed by a bunch of revolutionary communists.
And you’re right on about Alleycat’s. It’s a huge success because it’s a model of management excellence.
Scott said [quote]I still suspect it’s a bunch of kids in Wisconsin[/quote]
Gee Scott, why do HATE Wisconsin so much? What deep trauma did you suffer there?
Wisconsin holds a special place in my heart. The one day I spent in Wisconsin over CNY, a huge snow storm dumped around 2 feet of snow inside of a few hours. Thousands of commuters were stuck on the highway all day until the governor declared a state of emergency and called out the national guard to save the electorate. This was the first snow I had seen in years and it was amazing - for a few hours, anyway.
Madison is beautiful, but I just imagine all those kids trapped in their homes for days with nothing to do but terrorize us here on forumosa.
Scott, I completely disagree with you on the value of a union.
Although I don’t have any family member who was in one, I grew up in the Rust Belt, witnessing first hand how the high wages and ridiculous work rules negotiated by the unions crippled the US auto industry. My hometown of Lansing, MI, former home to Oldsmobile (now defunct, mind you), is practically a ghost town. My parents had many friends who worked for Olds, and it was nauseating hearing how much they made for doing so little work. It didn’t pay to get a college education because you could make more pushing a broom at GM. How ridiculous.
Most of my career was in the travel business, 8 years of which was at an airline. I watched with morbid curiosity as the unions at Eastern Airlines struck the bankrupt carrier, putting it out of business. What kind of stupidity is that? They put themselves AND their non-striking co-workers out of a job. Ramp workers for my own airline made significantly more than I did, and I was a manager of passenger service. In an 8 hour shift, while I worked my tail off at the ticket counter, the rampers may load/off-load 3 flights and spent the rest of the time loitering in the concourse drinking coffee and flirting with my female agents. I once got in trouble for helping clean the cabin of a delayed flight so the passengers wouldn’t miss their downline connections because that was a union job. Pilots making US$100K/year flying maybe 4 international trips a month bitching about their deal, went on strike. They inconvenienced millions of passengers, and for what? What a load of crapola.
Unions may have once served a purpose, but have outlived their usefulness. They make workers less efficient and hurt the company’s competitiveness.
If EFL teachers in Taiwan were actually downtrodden, I’d say let’s talk union, but we’re not. We’re fairly paid for for doing little work, relative to the average Taiwanese worker. We are not enslaved and entirely free to return home at any time. No union necessary or even wanted.
I would still support a professional association along the lines of what I’ve repeatedly described in previous posts.
Freegaynhappy having a Brainiac moment^^^^^
You’re part and parcel of the same crew working illegally and dodging raids…then whines? LOL…[/quote]
I thought this too when he first posted it, but after he explained the situation, i can kind of understand. He has a legitimate ARC through a legitimate buxiban who happens to also run an illegal kindy. I would certainly get out of that situation and tell the school I would only teach the legal classes, but I can understand the concern about getting canned. Delicate situation.
I’m still against the idea of a union…
Freegaynhappy having a Brainiac moment^^^^^
You’re part and parcel of the same crew working illegally and dodging raids…then whines? LOL…[/quote]
I thought this too when he first posted it, but after he explained the situation, i can kind of understand. He has a legitimate ARC through a legitimate buxiban who happens to also run an illegal kindy. I would certainly get out of that situation and tell the school I would only teach the legal classes, but I can understand the concern about getting canned. Delicate situation.
I’m still against the idea of a union…[/quote]
Not a Union which is illegal, an Association, run by an ex union delegate from Australia who is going to tell us all about our human rights. After all this guy is an ex union delegate? He should at least understand how to approach the CLA with his work rights issue. Perhaps he is afraid of losing his job. Fine… But for a union delegate to continue to knowingly work illegally… well well well
Now Mr Union Delegate of years experience… how is it that you, who have the knowledge and undertandng of negotiations and dealing with legal process, cannot stand up for yourself, in Taiwan?
If you have not bothered to use the free legal resources here to your avail then how can some newbie expect to join your association?
He could just type resign. The CLA would back him up and the Education Department would fine his employer. The fine for illegally employing teachers at Kindies can be NT$750,000 for the employer. In this case the government would actually be there to assist but freegaynhappy does not wish to persue the legal system provided to him by the government here.
[quote]Get a grip. Stop making yourself an ignorant ass. [/quote] The only ignorant person here mate is you. You have legal recourse but have not bothered to get off your sorry arse to use them.
Many people been in that same position…but not running off at the mouth wanting to shaft their employer. Why bite the hand that feeds?
I’m against it because all it will do is create huge animosity between the local teachers and the foreigners. More so than already exists. Vast majority of Buxiban owners are Chinese…and you will get the shortest shrift from them. They really do NOT care.
From what this thread illustrates, most teachers are certainly not in agreement with this concept as they are quite aware that their own situations are generally rather good. Foreign Buxiban owners are also very much aware of both sides of the coin.
A newbie spouting off about work “rights” and $$$$ and bigger pieces of the pie…and all the other rot…hasn’t clue what it takes to RUN a school. That’s what makes all this blather even more ridiculous.
There is NO us and THEM. You either work together and make it a success…or you will find that you fook yourself. It’s really that simple. Your jobs exists only so long as there are students that can pay the tuition…and when you price yourself out of existence? Buh Bye…you’re not worth it.
Many people been in that same position…but not running off at the mouth wanting to shaft their employer. Why bite the hand that feeds? .[/quote] :ohreally: :ohreally: :ohreally:
Yes but if this week kneed union delegate wants others to consider joining his association what better way to show them by example. Or maybe he gets paid too much 
and is not so aggrieved by his present illegal situtation.
After all, money can buy many union delegates, we all know that. 
He has a legitimate ARC but knowlingly works illegally. :raspberry: :raspberry:
The CLA will not shaft him if he approaches them. The education department will shaft his employer by ensuring they do not employ people illegally, and hey big fine for employer and maybe school shutdown so what. But hey, it’s his right to knowingly work under the table.
After all, isn’t this what our Dear Chairman association leader want for all of his members. The right to be able to say no I will not accept illegal work. Or yes I will accept it but if I do get caught not bitch and moan as I am being deported.
This is not a case of a total newbie :newbie: caught in his first few days even before the ARC was processed. 
This is a card carrying… wait a mo… ARC holder. If he continues to choose to work illegally then he should either contact the CLA or the Ministry of Education or go on sucking it up and sulking about how he wants to form an association that won’t stand up for anybodies rights. :loco: :loco:
IMHO