Axis & Allies, or Allies & Axis

Politics Taiwan Politics
21

Come off it. Americans call it World War II, this part in particular called the Pacific Theater of the war. What do the Chinese call it? “抗日戰爭”

While the US was pushing back Germany and Japan simultaneously on different sides of the world, the Chinese were struggling just to fend off invading Japanese forces in their own country. There is no shame in this; the ROC was a new country and the KMT government did not even have effective control over China yet when Japan began encroaching. But there is absolutely no ambiguity that it was US forces who were island hopping to push back Japanese forces, and it was two US bombs that fell on Japan and led to surrender.

Yes, China played a big part in fighting against Japan, but I would not stretch it to say that “China defeated Japan.”

22

The amount of Japanese military men and material that the Chinese forces, both Red and Nationalist, caused to be committed to China, when they could have been sent elsewhere, should not be underestimated.

23

Did someone say that? I didn’t, I’ve said from the beginning that the Allied Powers (of which the ROC was a member) defeated the Axis Powers (of which Taiwan was a member).

24

Did someone say that? I didn’t, I’ve said from the beginning that the Allied Powers (of which the ROC was a member) defeated the Axis Powers (of which Taiwan was a member).[/quote]

I’d say that Japan didn’t fully defeat China, thanks mainly to the Chinese, but with Big Help from the Americans.

25

Regarding the flag:

So I doubt that this flag is anything to do with the USA.

26

Did someone say that? I didn’t, I’ve said from the beginning that the Allied Powers (of which the ROC was a member) defeated the Axis Powers (of which Taiwan was a member).[/quote]

I’d say that Japan didn’t fully defeat China, thanks mainly to the Chinese, but with Big Help from the Americans.[/quote]

Well, yes, of course. Madame Chiang Kai-shek made a speech to the US Congress practically asking for help. FDR loved her and because of that helped the Generalissimo getting Taiwan from Japan into the Cairo Declaration. I find this whole discussion rather odd, is this history unknown to you all?

[quote=“jesus80”]Regarding the flag:

So I doubt that this flag is anything to do with the USA.[/quote]
It was originally just white and blue, Dr Sun Yat-sen added the red; he was big admirer of the West.

27

I’m not a expert on who FDR loved, but that is NOT why the US went to war against Japan.

Lady Soong and the Peanut were mainly useful at getting somewhat greater US support against Mao and Co. who were not expected to win the civil war at that time.

28

[quote=“BigJohn”]I’m not a expert on who FDR loved, but that is NOT why the US went to war against Japan.

Lady Soong and the Peanut were mainly useful at getting somewhat greater US support against Mao and Co. who were not expected to win the civil war at that time.[/quote]

Good lord, of course not, it was Pearl Harbor. Duh. I’m not talking about that, haven’t been, I’ve been talking about the US support for the ROC.

Truman, on the other hand, despised the Chiangs, the Soongs and the Kongs. But he had to support them, otherwise, he’d look weak against Communism; that’s probably what you’re referring to in your 2nd line? Mao and Co. weren’t big on FDR’s radar.

29

ROTFLMAO. In fact, the United States at one point (the State Department controlled by Reds) embargoed assistance to the Nationalists and Chiang was scoping out Taiwan as a refuge almost as soon as the island returned to Chinese control.

30

Money.

The Nationalists were divided. A member of the KMT even became the leader of China under the Japanese in Nanjing. He is known as a traitor now but he was best of friends with China’s national farther. In fact, it is largely for this reason that the KMT could not garner the broad support of the majority of Chinese. They were beaten by the rumor mill of who were the true patriots. The KMT would use the Japanese to help fight the CCP when it suited them. It was to the KMTs demise that they formed a pact with the US and the Communist Party to fight Japan. The communists were a guerrilla army while the KMT were an established army. When the US backed KMT military action against Japan, the KMT was occupied while the Communists spread over China exploiting the KMTs weakness of having it both ways and being divided.

The KMT came to Taiwan as a defeated force. They had lost to the Japanese and the Communists. They, however, did keep some relations with Japan and America. The drug trade.

The US supported the KMT through the Flying Tigers out of Burma. I read about these things while reading about the Flying Tigers when I worked with the remnants of the KMT in a village called Mae Salong. They were the 93rd division of the KMT. Now known as the lost army.

[quote]Fox wrote:
the American’s needed a foil against Communist China so they established the KMT on Taiwan.

ROTFLMAO. In fact, the United States at one point (the State Department controlled by Reds) embargoed assistance to the Nationalists and Chiang was scoping out Taiwan as a refuge almost as soon as the island returned to Chinese control.[/quote]

He may have been scoping it out, but he wouldn’t be there had it not been for the US installing him there. The US didn’t recognize the Communists as the legitimate government of China for another 30 years. Give up.

31

[quote=“Dirt”]
It was originally just white and blue, Dr Sun Yat-sen added the red; he was big admirer of the West.[/quote]

Honestly, it doesn’t sound at all like this flag has the colors of the USA flag on purpose. Not at all. There’s no reason for thinking so. All the colors in the flag refer to things such Earth, Air and Sun. I do not say that you don’t know about History, but all your posts sound totally biased and intentionally oriented to demonstrate your thesis, so I can’t give much credit…

Edit: Wikipedia also tells us about the symbology behind the colors:

[quote]Sun Yat-sen, who developed the Three Principles of the People.
In the “Blue Sky with a White Sun” flag of Lu Hao-tung, the twelve rays of the white Sun symbolize the twelve months and the twelve traditional shichen (時辰, shíchén), a traditional unit of time which corresponds to two modern hours. Sun Yat-sen added the “Red Earth” to the flag to signify the blood of the revolutionaries who sacrificed themselves in order to overthrow the Qing Dynasty and create the ROC. Together, the three colors of the flag correspond to the Three Principles of the People: Blue represents nationalism and liberty; White represents democracy and equality; and Red represents the people’s livelihood and fraternity.[5] President Chiang Kai-shek proclaimed on the National Day in 1949, “As long as a national flag with Blue Sky, White Sun, and a Wholly Red Earth flies on the land of China, it symbolises the independence and liberty of the descendants of the Huang Emperor”.[/quote]

32

Governments have good achievements, governments have bad. The inability to admit that the ROC was pivotal in the fight against the Japanese by all except 1 person says a lot about what color kool-aid is being drunk in this forum. By admitting that the ROC did have good achievements would undermine the propaganda narrative that the ROC is evil and illegitimate.

33

The ROC was not pivotal unless you mean pivoting by preparing to run away from Nanjing, Shanghai or whatever place they’d set up to get away from their pursuers.

34

Nice ave-grinding try. Sadly, it does not match up to the historical record. Even a cursory glance at such reveals that some units of the NRA fought very well, slowing down the Japanese advance, and even inflicting a series of devastating defeats on the IJA.
Granted, other units fared not so well, but to condemn the entire NRA in such a blanket fashion is sheer myopia.

35

Do you understand the meaning of pivotal? Guess not…::

36

Nice ave-grinding try. Sadly, it does not match up to the historical record. Even a cursory glance at such reveals that some units of the NRA fought very well, slowing down the Japanese advance, and even inflicting a series of devastating defeats on the IJA.
Granted, other units fared not so well, but to condemn the entire NRA in such a blanket fashion is sheer myopia.[/quote]
Just wanting to add a little details. Some of ROC’s army fought very hard against the IJA and some ‘ate’ very hard from the US supplies. It happened that most those fought hard were the warlords’ and those who ate hard belonged to Chiang’s Huangpu (黃埔） faction. The memoir of Li Zongren （李宗仁 wiki) had stories how Chiang’s KMT armies were corrupt and unwilling to fight against the IJA . Trumann later realized that as well.

37

Don’t be obtuse. If the IJA had over-run China as fast as they declared they would, the War in the Pacific would have fared quite differently for the Allies. Allied military planners at the time were well aware of this pivot, though I readily understand comic book history prefers to accentuate the gloss.

38

No I’m being correct in my statements. The Chinese army was not critical in the defeat of the Japanese, the Americans were.

The Americans did not depend on resources from China (instead China sucked american and allied resources up) and infantry from Japan would not have been much use on isolated pacific islands or in a naval and air war from the East.

China had been occupied for many years prior to WWII and the area occupied had expanded during WWII until Japanese forces were rolled back in the pacific. Japan held onto its captured territory in China until the end of the war in 1945. Japan was forced to capitulate as American air and naval superiority along with the atom bomb ensured the Japan mainland could not be defended.

39

[quote=“headhonchoII”]No I’m being correct in my statements. The Chinese army was not critical in the defeat of the Japanese, the Americans were.

The Americans did not depend on resources from China (instead China sucked American and allied resources up) and infantry from Japan would not have been much use on isolated pacific islands or in a naval and air war from the East.

China had been occupied for many years prior to WWII and the area occupied had expanded during WWII until Japanese forces were rolled back in the pacific. Japan held onto its captured territory in China until the end of the war in 1945. Japan was forced to capitulate as American air and naval superiority along with the atom bomb ensured the Japan mainland could not be defended.[/quote]

nytimes.com/2013/10/18/opini … .html?_r=0

14 million Chinese lost their lives during the fighting of the Japanese under the ROC. The rules of this forum will only allow me to use the word “reprehensible” to describe you.

[quote] In the early 20th century China’s growing desire for national sovereignty rubbed up against Japan’s rising imperialism on the Asian mainland. War broke out in earnest in July 1937, and during the eight years that it lasted, both the Nationalist forces of Chiang Kai-shek and, to a lesser extent, the Communist fighters answering to Mao Zedong engaged in extraordinary feats of resistance.

Though far weaker and poorer than the mighty United States or the British Empire, China played a major role in the war. Some 40,000 Chinese soldiers fought in Burma alongside American and British troops in 1944, helping to secure the Stilwell Road linking Lashio to Assam in India. In China itself, they held down some 800,000 Japanese soldiers.

The costs were great. At least 14 million Chinese were killed and some 80 million became refugees over the course of the war. The atrocities were many: the Rape of Nanking, in 1937, is the most notorious, but there were other, equally searing but less well-known, massacres: the bloody capture in 1938 of Xuzhou in the east, which threatened Chiang’s ability to control central China; the 1939 carpet bombing of Chongqing, the temporary capital, which killed more than 4,000 people in two days of air raids that a survivor described as “a sea of fire”; and the “three alls” campaign (“Burn all, loot all, kill all”) of 1941, which devastated the Communist-held areas in the north.[/quote]

And, yes, it did depend heavily on the USA to end the war, the same USA that promised Taiwan to the ROC. Welcome to the Republic of China on Taiwan, I hope you’re enjoying your stay.

40

[quote=“Dirt”][quote=“headhonchoII”]No I’m being correct in my statements. The Chinese army was not critical in the defeat of the Japanese, the Americans were.

The Americans did not depend on resources from China (instead China sucked American and allied resources up) and infantry from Japan would not have been much use on isolated pacific islands or in a naval and air war from the East.

China had been occupied for many years prior to WWII and the area occupied had expanded during WWII until Japanese forces were rolled back in the pacific. Japan held onto its captured territory in China until the end of the war in 1945. Japan was forced to capitulate as American air and naval superiority along with the atom bomb ensured the Japan mainland could not be defended.[/quote]

nytimes.com/2013/10/18/opini … .html?_r=0

14 million Chinese lost their lives fighting the Japanese under the ROC. The rules of this forum will only allow me to use the word “reprehensible” to describe you.[/quote]

What is your point? That China suffered horribly so therefore they helped win the war? That does not compute. Nor does it make sense to attack someone’s statement that China’s contribution to the war was not that significant as that person being callous about the human casualties.

The only key points in the first article, which quite frankly is a pro-China piece (“All China got was a permanent seat on the security council” - what’s wrong with that?) are the 800,000 troops and resource allocations. But wait a minute! Didn’t they get resources FROM China? And has been said before, could the Japanese really have used those troops on the small Pacific islands with a rapidly shrinking navy?

China made a contribution, but this contribution has not been generally underestimated in terms of effect. In fact, the Chinese effort was so often undermined by incompetence and factional infighting that it is hard to say, “Great job, lads!”

Then Mao declared war on the US in Korea. How about some gratitude for China you say? How about some goddamn gratitude for the US by China for what they did? Estee Taberouette!