Sorry to keep jumping about, but the OP was rather complex. Just had a conversation offline (yes it does happen occasionally) and my friend had the following suggestion: -
Just tie a little rubber plane behind the big one for the kids, sort of like you sometimes see with boats.
I did write to Virgin (with a link to this thread) by the way and will update you if they see fit to respond.
Iâm with you all the way, DM. For every ounce of pleasure that sweet little children sometimes bring to our lives, the misbehaviour of the worst among them outweighs it ten times over.
I will make full provision for myself. No one will pay a penny of tax toward keeping me in my old age. But most likely Iâll still have to pay a lot of taxes to provide welfare for those who have squandered all their earnings raising children during their working lives, as well as paying for those kidsâ education, policing to stop their socially destructive activities, unemployment benefits for the many among them who will be unemployable, and so on.
And if we can successfully curb human reproduction, weâll have ample resources in our little world to keep us all well and happy no matter how long we live.
Back ON topicâŚ
Although for the most part I share OPâs frustration with rude parents and their out-of-control kids in restaurants, Iâd like to tell you about a recent positive experience.
I was having lunch at an Italian reastaurant. In walks a mom with two boys, twins, about 7yo. My frist thought was âOh, no! Please go away! Youâre going to ruin my lunch!â They pick a table close to mine. Yikes!
But, it was nothing like I expected it to be.
First, their mom was a very calm type, well mannered, and so were the boys. She treated them like adults. Took the time to explain everything on the menu and let them choose the meal they wanted. She was patient with answering questions about the food, she showed them how to eat different meals but mostly let them do their own thing. The boys seemed to have already had experience eating Western food. When they couldnât finish, she didnât force them or raise her voice. They were quiet and yet at the same time lively and enjoying themselves.
I donât know how to say it without sounding patronizing, so Iâll just say it. This this mom wasnât a typical Taiwanese mom, she seemed quite sophisticated (but not at all the trendy Nouveau Riche type), my guess is probably well travelled and educated. Of course, thatâs not enough to raise your kids well, but being exposed to other cultures and having experience of going to restaurants in other countries probably helps educate parents and kids on how to behave.
It was a pleasure to watch them because all three of them seemed to be enjoying their experience. If the rest of their family life is anything like this visit to the restaurant, then those boys are lucky. I grew up with a mom like that and I hope to be one like her some day too.
When I find myself in certain situations (for example, surrounded by unruly kids), I remind myself of the âparadigm shiftâ which I learned about in Stephen Coveyâs Seven Habits of Highly Effective People.
To quote:
"Covey has the best example of a paradigm shift: he was traveling in a subway, a man gets in with his two sons, the sons are running all over the place bothering the people, this continues, so he finally gets irritated enough to ask the father why he doesnât do something to control his kids. The father replies, âWe just got back from the hospital where their mother died. I donât know how to handle it and I guess they donât either.â
Suddenly you see the everything differently. That is the power of a paradigm shift. They are the same kids yelling and screaming in the subway, but you look at them and understand them in a different way."
While I agree there are too many instances when parents/caretakers arenât being responsible, Iâm just presenting another way of âseeingâ things.
[quote=âhoneybirdâ]When I find myself in certain situations (for example, surrounded by unruly kids), I remind myself of the âparadigm shiftâ which I learned about in Stephen Coveyâs Seven Habits of Highly Effective People.
To quote:
"Covey has the best example of a paradigm shift: he was traveling in a subway, a man gets in with his two sons, the sons are running all over the place bothering the people, this continues, so he finally gets irritated enough to ask the father why he doesnât do something to control his kids. The father replies, âWe just got back from the hospital where their mother died. I donât know how to handle it and I guess they donât either.â
Suddenly you see the everything differently. That is the power of a paradigm shift. They are the same kids yelling and screaming in the subway, but you look at them and understand them in a different way."
While I agree there are too many instances when parents/caretakers arenât being responsible, Iâm just presenting another way of âseeingâ things.[/quote]
So, I should see every kid who is acting out as they just lost their parent? I understand the concept of âputting yourself in anotherâs shoesâ but even still there is still that such a thing of respecting otherâs space no matter the situation.
just my 2 cents
Yes, the paradigm shift. Useful tool. I like to use it as often as I can. Thanks for the reminder, honeybird.
[quote=âNamahottieâ]So, I should see every kid who is acting out as they just lost their parent? I understand the concept of âputting yourself in anotherâs shoesâ but even still there is still that such a thing of respecting otherâs space no matter the situation.
just my 2 cents[/quote]
You are totally missing the point. I would suggest reading about it, or at least thinking things through before you comment.
[quote=âtashâ]
You are totally missing the point. I would suggest reading about it, or at least thinking things through before you comment.[/quote]
No I donât think I missed the point. The point is to see it from another perspective i.e. seeing someoneâs else point of view=compassion/empathy/seeing beyond the surface of the situation. But to allow your kids to be out of your control shouldnât intrude on me nor should I have to deal with it.
OK. Some kind moderating soul has removed my previous, catty remark (thank you!) so I get a fresh start and a new attempt to explain why I think this is missing the point. This time Iâll do it nice and slow:
The first part of the above comment is pretty near to the point, but not completely. Itâs not so much about looking at things from another personâs point of view and being sympathetic or empathizing. Itâs more about changing the perspective in an abstract sense, without necessarily having to know the circumstances of the other person. Youâre doing it for your own sake, to help yourself, to change your own experience, in the first place. Empathy is less relevant. You donât even have to feel anything about or for the people in the situation. The central point is you and your experience, how you decide to see it, not the other personâs exact situation.
Then the second part of the comment (in bold) completely dismisses that point. Why? Because with the paradigm shift you have taken control of how you react/interpret/feel/think about the situation, however, if you go back to expecting the other person to behave in a certain way, it takes control away from you and gives it back to the source of frustration. That act in itself annuls the effort youâve made and you havenât made the shift. All you did in your case was that you tried to sympathize with the person, but it didnât work because they were too annoying to find anything to feel sorry for them about. It didnât work because sympathizing is not the same as making the paradigm shift.
OK. Some kind moderating soul has removed my previous, catty remark (thank you!) so I get a fresh start and a new attempt to explain why I think this is missing the point. This time Iâll do it nice and slow:
The first part of the above comment is pretty near to the point, but not completely. Itâs not so much about looking at things from another personâs point of view and being sympathetic or empathizing. Itâs more about changing the perspective in an abstract sense, without necessarily having to know the circumstances of the other person. Youâre doing it for your own sake, to help yourself, to change your own experience, in the first place. Empathy is less relevant. You donât even have to feel anything about or for the people in the situation. The central point is you and your experience, how you decide to see it, not the other personâs exact situation.
Then the second part of the comment (in bold) completely dismisses that point. Why? Because with the paradigm shift you have taken control of how you react/interpret/feel/think about the situation, however, if you go back to expecting the other person to behave in a certain way, it takes control away from you and gives it back to the source of frustration. That act in itself annuls the effort youâve made and you havenât made the shift. All you did in your case was that you tried to sympathize with the person, but it didnât work because they were too annoying to find anything to feel sorry for them about. It didnât work because sympathizing is not the same as making the paradigm shift.[/quote]
I didnât miss the point, as I understand all of what you just shared. I still stand by what I say. Just as much as I should shift my conciousness to see beyond what the situation presents, the other party should be accountable and do the same.
We are agreeing yet have different approaches to it .
:eh: Is that legal? 
[/quote]
Shouldnât be - and not just for kids. After 4hrs Iâve run out of movies I actually want to watch. After 8hrs Iâve finished my paperbacks. After 11hrs a** and back start hurting. I can only imagine what the bordome is like for them.
One time when they were 4 & 5 we were transferring in Chicago after flying TPE- NRT, NRT - ORD and were about to start ORD - PWM it was the one time they made a fuss. They both looked out the window at the airplane, blinked and turned to me and said, "Papa - no more airplane OK? NoâŚNooooooooooo!
Cute as buttons . . . the poor little buggers.
HG
OK. I
[quote=âtashâ]
Paradigm shift is when you change the perspective, not expecting or needing
Speaking of paradigm shifts, why does everyone find it so hard to put theirselves in the kids shoes. Play and wandering about are pretty natural things for a child to do. To sit for 15 hours is not. Please try having a little more tolerance.
As for those who voted for the third choice, you may have been in Taiwan too long and be suffering from a condition called Taiwanese Parent Syndrome. I see sufferers of this awful ailment almost every day. The symptoms are believing your child to be the most intelligent, polite, well mannered little boy or girl on the planet while the reality is the polar opposite.
Ahem
Going back to the OP for a secondâŚ
[quote=âDangermouseâ]
So I have some proposals:
1): Kids under 5 should be banned from all restaurants.
2): Kids under 7 should be banned from passenger aircraft. Provision will be made for children to fly in cargo aircraft in a special noise poof container so that they comply with international airport noise abatement regulations. They will face a mandatory 6 month quarrantine session at destination.
3): Children should not be allowed to travel on passenger trains (or any public transport). Special frieght trains will be provided, again with noise proof containers.
4): All children should be in bed asleep by 1730. Any child not complying will be taken away and sold to extra terrestrials.
Now Iâm only half serious, but children can ruin a good meal, a long flight or even a holiday. I think parents who take their kids on a plane on vacation should be shot for being stupid. :fume:[/quote]
Criticism is not of the children themselves, who will always do pretty much the same thing given any level of boredom/lack of stimulae but rather with the parents, who ought to understand the impact of inflicting their children on others.
Of course you can take the view that you donât care about others and your family comes first (this is very Confucian by the way) but you must understand that they (other people) will not thank you for it.
Artificially changing your experience of something is like lying to yourself: You are persuading yourself that something is actually happening for what may or may not be the reason.
The fact is the kids in this case are still running around and no amount of Paradigm Shift is going to change this fact.
I could stay in bed and decide to see that I am actually going to work. However, in reality Iâm not at work. My boss is angry and Iâm in trouble.
When I physically get to work, my boss will shout at me but I can use the Paradigm Shift to reason that she is not actually mad at me, but angry because she stubbed her toe on the radiator earlier in the day.
Going back on topic:
[quote=ânavillusâ]speaking of paradigm shifts, why does everyone find it so hard to put theirselves in the kids shoes. Play and wandering about are pretty natural things for a child to do. To sit for 15 hours is not. Please try having a little more tolerance.
[/quote]
Donât put them on planes for 15 hours then. Clearly the fault of the parents.
Artificially changing your experience of something is like lying to yourself: You are persuading yourself that something is actually happening for what may or may not be the reason.
The fact is the kids in this case are still running around and no amount of Paradigm Shift is going to change this fact.
I could stay in bed and decide to see that I am actually going to work. However, in reality Iâm not at work. My boss is angry and Iâm in trouble.
When I physically get to work, my boss will shout at me but I can use the Paradigm Shift to reason that she is not actually mad at me, but angry because she stubbed her toe on the radiator earlier in the day.
Going back on topic:
[quote=ânavillusâ]speaking of paradigm shifts, why does everyone find it so hard to put theirselves in the kids shoes. Play and wandering about are pretty natural things for a child to do. To sit for 15 hours is not. Please try having a little more tolerance.
[/quote]
Donât put them on planes for 15 hours then. Clearly the fault of the parents.[/quote]
No worries DM. I saw this with all of my aunts and uncles. My sister and I were the first grandchildren - we heard a lot of similar stuff from the aunts & uncles until they themselves had kids. At which point all of a sudden the screaming and running around became acceptable. If you have kids, the same paradigm shift will happen to you, possibly.
This is partially true. Just because I have a kid actually makes me MORE aware of how loud heâs being in public places. He is well behaved on long plane trips, and has been since he was 2 because we prepare for the trip with toys, games, art pads, cards and now thank god, he just puts on the headphones and watches the movie.
When he was younger, weâd bring a small sketch pad to restaurants too, and crayons.
Now I can just give him my cellphone and heâll play the videit games.
[quote=âEleguaâ]My sister and I were the first grandchildren - we heard a lot of similar stuff from the aunts & uncles until they themselves had kids. At which point all of a sudden the screaming and running around became acceptable.[/quote]I notice that lots of previously unacceptable behaviour becomes acceptable once the complainer starts indulging in it himself. Maybe this is the solution⌠donât complain about X, Y or Z. Start doing it yourself.
Iâm currently building a home theater subwoofer powerful enough for a cinema. I might go deaf but at least I wonât be forced to listen to my neighborsâ pointless noisemaking anymore. It ainât right, but it is a solution. I wonât complain about them anymore because Iâll be ten times as guilty as they are. I do however feel miserable that they have finally dragged me down to their level. 
Of course, itâs a free world and you have a choice on whether you will apply the paradigm shift or not. Whether you apply it or not, it will still be what it is, and no, it never was about changing the facts in the first place.
I could stay in bed and decide to see that I am actually going to work. However, in reality Iâm not at work. My boss is angry and Iâm in trouble.
When I physically get to work, my boss will shout at me but I can use the Paradigm Shift to reason that she is not actually mad at me, but angry because she stubbed her toe on the radiator earlier in the day.[/quote]
A missed analogy like this doesnât add anything constructive to the discussion and the mocking tone in it undermines your argument.
To paraphrase you from an earlier post in this thread: âSometimes your posts are really dumb, DMâ
And Iâm tash, not Tash, btw.