Banqiao Man fined NT$26,000 for flipping the bird

Legal General Legal Matters
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The China Times today reports that a Mr. Zhang was convicted by the Banqiao District Court of criminal defamation for flipping the bird and fined NT$6,000. He also lost a civil case and was ordered to pay NT$20,000 to the victim of his crime.

Mr. Zhang’s daughter had a criminal complaint filed against her by a Ms.Chen. He went with his daughter to a hearing in the matter at the Banqiao District Prosecutor’s Office. He saw Ms. Chen in the waiting room, lost his temper, and flipped her off for two seconds. Ms. Chen screamed at Zhang but her younger brother managed to keep her from going after Zhang. Zhang’s daugher testified that all she saw was Ms. Chen screaming at her father.

Chen’s younger brother was the only witness who saw Zhang flip the bird. The security guard on duty testified that he didn’t see anything. Incredibly, there are no security cameras in the waiting room at the Prosecutor’s Office in Banqiao (a place where parties to criminal cases wait together before being called in to hearings by the prosecutor).

Nonetheless, the prosecutor reasoned that Ms. Chen would not have thrown a fit in a public place unless she had been incited to rage by someone. 'Therefore(!), she must have been telling the truth when she said that Mr. Zhang flipped her off. Apparently the court agreed.

She claimed NT$900,000 in damages.

Dearpeter doesn’t have a chance!

An important thing to notice here is that the standard of proof is nothing like ‘beyond any reasonable doubt’ for criminal cases. As far as I can tell, the evidentiary standards are completely at the discretion of the judge and the prosecutor’s evidence is likely to be given great weight.

[begin speculation]
My thesis at the moment is that the evidentiary standards are almost the reverse of those in the US. In the US, you have to prove a civil case by a preponderance of the evidence (>51%) and a criminal case by the evidence being beyond reasonable doubt (i.e. much higher than 50%).

I think in Taiwan, the prosecutor really only has to prove his case by a preponderance of the evidence in a criminal case, but in a civil case the plaintiff has to be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. Perhaps that’s why the easiest way to victory in a civil case (as here) is by winning a criminal one first. Using the prosecutor, you can win in the criminal case with a lower burden of proof and then you can take your conviction to the civil court where you can meet the higher standard of evidence there with your criminal conviction.

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As of today I am bandaging my middle and index fingers together whenever I go out. Or maybe I’ll just wear mittens.

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Yep, the bird is out … more cases to follow … hunger for free money will fuel it … :eh:

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I think we should start a campaign to educate foreigners. It should start with warning at the airport.

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Imagine the signs. :laughing:

Is punishable in a criminal court along with drug smuggling.

Hmm, maybe not a bad idea. The humiliation Taiwan would suffer once the international media got hold of this might help to overturn this ridiculous law.

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hooray!!! now that the courts have the finger sussed, it is time to tackle corruption.

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WTF? :astonished: 900K??? For the Bird??? That’s insane.

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New signs to be put at public places frequented by foreigners, including overseas TECO’s …

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WTF? :astonished: 900K??? For the Bird??? That’s insane.[/quote]

Well, yes it is. That’s why the court only gave her NT$20,000. Still, NT$20,000 is around US$700. That’s a pretty stiff penalty for flipping someone off. Maybe it was because he did it at a prosecutor’s office, so this it is a sort of punishment for acting badly in a judicial office. But still, how has her reputation really been damaged? I think Zhang’s may have been damaged by having made a vulgar gesture at her. But why would people think less of me because I was insulted? Is it because it incited her to lose control in public? It’s hard for me to understand the logic of this.

It just seems so incredibly absurd.

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That’s why I mentioned that A- It is stupid to try fighting this. B- It is stupid to encourage Peter to fight this as if he were fighting “a good fight.” C- Peter should offer a genuine apology.

In a case like this, the prosecutor will often ask the plaintiff if there is anything the defendant can do to amend the “loss.” If the defendant agrees, the case is terminated and filed. In other words, all charges are dropped. In Peter’s case, the plaintiff only requested an apology but Peter wouldn’t do it.

Peter explained that he feared reprisal in a civil lawsuit following his admission of guilt. But if the plaintiff accepted the apology and agreed to drop the charges, it would essentially mean that the plaintiff agrees that her grievances have been adequately amended. As such, it would be very difficult for the plaintiff to successfully re-instate her claims in a civil court because a mutual agreement to amend the damage done, without resorting to legal proceedings, has been reached.

The fine is relatively steep given the offense, but that is not what I would be concerned about. I’d be more pissed off with having this on my record.

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hhhhaardddd tooo tyyyyppee wwiyth mmitrtens ooonnnmn. :frowning: :bluemad: :lick: :loco: :bravo: :smiley: :popcorn: :thumbsup: :whistle:

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I’m a witness. presley did this to all of us. Let’s take him to the cleaners.

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I’m a witness. presley did this to all of us. Let’s take him to the cleaners.[/quote]
Nonsense. I was picking my nose.

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I’m a witness. presley did this to all of us. Let’s take him to the cleaners.[/quote]
Nonsense. I was picking my nose.[/quote]

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OK, we killed the thread … flip me!

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I think I’ll start giving the thumbs up instead of the finger.

Someone cuts me off, and I’ll give 'em the thumb.

:bluemad: :thumbsup: “Good job, asshole!”

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I’m a witness. presley did this to all of us. Let’s take him to the cleaners.[/quote]
and what would you expect to get? He used to have a pair of odd socks and half a bag of maltesers but they were taken for some other misdemeanor.

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I’m a witness. presley did this to all of us. Let’s take him to the cleaners.[/quote]
Nonsense. I was picking my nose.[/quote]

you get the upstanding citizen award for that.