[quote=“Mucha Man”]
If you are wondering how safe Taiwan is, the answer is very. You can walk through most city parks at 3am drunk and not worry for your safety.[/quote]
I do that quite often.
I have, here in Taiwan, on two occasions, gone out and taken a sticks out of someone’s hand which they were using to beat a child. One was in front of my house, people I didn’t know. The father, grandfather, and grandmother were all there having a go at this poor 10 or 11 year old boy who refused to get up and go home. I think they were more embarrassed than anything and decided to have a try at talking to the boy. The other was at the school where a grandma laid into her grandson with a broom handle and wouldn’t quit. I simply can’t watch that shit. It’s child abuse, even in Taiwan.[/quote]
I can remember venturing out to roadside stands that sold hand made goods when I first came here. One of the things that they sold were bamboo sticks that were specifically made for spankings. I am not saying that is right. But I am showing part of the mentality you are up against.
[quote=“Whole Lotta Lotta”]
I can remember venturing out to roadside stands that sold hand made goods when I first came here. One of the things that they sold were bamboo sticks that were specifically made for spankings. I am not saying that is right. But I am showing part of the mentality you are up against.[/quote]
Maybe they weren’t for children, but naughty fun time between consenting adults? 
[quote=“Whole Lotta Lotta”]
I can remember venturing out to roadside stands that sold hand made goods when I first came here. One of the things that they sold were bamboo sticks that were specifically made for spankings. I am not saying that is right. But I am showing part of the mentality you are up against.[/quote]
I really don’t have anything against a child getting a spanking when it’s deserved, although I’ve never given my own child more than a slap on the hand, usually when she did something that would potentially cause her much greater harm. I have threatened to beat her with a stick if I ever catch her on a scooter with her mother/grandpa/aunts with no helmet. I know some of them don’t have any better sense so I have to leave it up to an 8 year old to act responsibly.
But these instances where I got involved were crossing over a certain line where the point was already made and it was uncontrolled anger that kept the hitting going. Things were well beyond culturally acceptable parameters. Perhaps I should also mind my own business. I generally don’t get involved with other people’s affairs. But something just snaps.
I think minding your own business is a cop-out excuse for burying one’s head in the sand; and it enables the undesirable behaviours to continue, as well as the persons doing them. In Taiwan, you are perfectly safe until you start confronting the people behaving in selfish, illegal and dangerous ways. A friend nearly got hit with a weapon for going outside and asking someone to stop shouting in the middle of the night. Try reasoning with some of the blue truck/taxi drivers, modded scooter riders or drivers of black cars after they’ve nearly taken you out with a selfish maneuver. You might find yourself in a situation much like the one related in OP. Taiwan is safe, but it has plenty of violence and violent people. Just the rules are different and we don’t often know them. The guy who confronted the scooter dad should have known better, but I don’t blame him for trying.
Money. Quote.
… :bravo:
Money. Quote.
… :bravo:[/quote]
Thanks for fixing my type-o in your quote. 
In yesterday’s Taipei Times, there was an editorial on this incident. The editorial was entitled, “Clash of cultures and personalities.”
The editorial accuses Mr. Starok of making xenophobic comments. The editorial also mentions xenophobia on the part of others, but the other fellow’s comments and behavior seem to escape the charge, or at least to escape an emphasis on it. I take it that the other fellow’s behavior constitutes part of the cultural difference thing, and that the main issue is Mr. Starok’s behavior.
Further, I take it that in the eyes of many, things of this sort are mainly a matter of cultural differences. And then there is also the advice that one should mind one’s own business and not antagonize anyone, which of course, nicely reinforces the cultural idea.
As it happens, this board contains some examples of this kind of cultural clash, incidents in which a foreigner refused to mind his own business and ended up antagonizing someone. I provide three of them below for illustration of the problem:
[quote]Today whilst going through a junction on a green light with the right of way in my favour, a dickhead 40ish year old bloke decided to turn left 12 feet, yes 12 FEET in front of me even though we both had eye contact with each other and he had actually stopped. But anyway, he decided to make a dash for it.
I narrowly missed the body of his bike by skidding around him, but I hit the tip of his wheel.
Now, to add insult to injury, he shouted at the top of his voice "GAN NI NIAO (Or F*%k your mother) to which I replied something like Beitz le (stupid or idiot).(Incorrect pinyin for both I think), but it’s quite a harmless comment.
He got off his bike and ran towards me and grabbed my shirt. Then he ran into the noodle shop by the side of the road and came out with a 6" knife which he grabbed off the laobans table.[/quote] [forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopic.ph … 69#p209169](What is it that makes them flip?
In the cultural clash described above, the foreigner clearly should have refrained from antagonizing the other person by calling him an idiot in response to his actions and comments. After all, the person in question was merely adhering to the precepts of his culture. And anyway, what that other person did was none of the foreigner’s business.
[quote]The first time it happened to me, I took a filed off screwdriver right through the earlobe. This was from someone in the crowd who snuck up behind me during a heated verbal exchange with a taxi driver who had just run over my foot.[/quote] [forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopic.ph … 14#p209414](What is it that makes them flip?
Here we see another example of cultural clash, and another example of a foreigner who imprudently thought that a cabbie running over his foot was somehow his business. He seems to have learned his lesson, though.
[quote]Yeah, your only choice in Taiwan is to either accept the a*****e behavior of 50% of the other drivers or be prepared to deal with a baseball bat, a watermelon knife, or a gun. . . . [/quote] [forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopic.ph … 97#p907297](German guy gets bullet - traffic dispute
Well, I wouldn’t have put it that way, but the advice is good, that one should mind one’s own business, and not interfere when one sees displays of the culture.
I do have a minor quibble, though, and I hope no one is offended by it. Someone mentioned that one should not tell another person how to raise his children. It seems to me that there could be another issue involved:
[quote]Probably make a bit of difference to have something separating the skull from the pavement on initial impact. More important is that the child won’t be seriously hurt in a minor accident where the bike just falls over. I know a few cases where this has happened (to adults) not wearing helmets and the results were fatal. I was in an accident myself where I lost control of the bike going over a manhole cover that was raised from the road a few inches. I had a helmet on but still had a headache for a week. I have little doubt that the helmet saved my life. [/quote] [forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopic.ph … 6#p1383036](Beaten up for commenting on helmetless kids
I don’t have a scooter, so I don’t have a full, detailed conception of the risks, but if the above is an accurate depiction of the situation, wouldn’t the better advice be that a person shouldn’t tell another person whether to raise his kids, that is, whether to allow them to reach adulthood? This, of course, is not to justify Mr. Starok’s imprudent behavior in any way.
Having said the above, I must add that I am in no position to judge Mr. Starok or any of the other posters for their cultural contretemps, because in the past I committed a similar transgression. About seven years ago, as I was walking down a street in Miaoli County, I saw a toddler, two or three years old I guess (whatever his age, he was quite sawed-off and kind of a newb about the walking thing), coming out of a store unattended and heading straight for the street. I don’t recall how much traffic was in the street, or even if there was any traffic at the time, but it just didn’t seem like a good idea for him to go out into the street by himself. So I stopped him with my hand and held him there, hoping that some adult would come and get him. Knowing very little Chinese, I foolishly just said “no” to him repeatedly. In response to my actions, the child began complaining loudly. I peered into the store and saw some adults by the cashier’s counter. None of them seemed in a hurry to retrieve the child, but they had heard the child, and reading their faces, I sensed that they were antagonized. Not wanting to trigger any cultural clashes, I took my hand off the child and walked on. I think that the fact that I quickly corrected my mistake should count in my favor.
Since then I have specifically resolved to try very hard to avoid antagonizing anyone by presuming to interfere with how, or even whether, they raise their kids to adulthood. And more generally, I intend to try very hard to be a credit to my race, and to stay in my place.
Or you could just watch the news everyday and see the countless CCTV clips of people being hacked to death, robbed, beaten with baseball bats or run over due to some perceived slight. Being an average Taiwanese person is fraught with more dangers than being a big nose.
Murder rates per person are higher equal to those in the United States. Sticking one’s head in the sand does not make your environment any less dangerous.
Yes, I always watch the local news in Taiwan to get an accurate picture of society. It’s just so balanced and non-sensationalistic 
I think if you feel very strongly about the subject, there may be other ways of introducing the concept of children wearing helmets than accosting citizens who are going about their every day routines. I’m sure no one doubts Mr Starok had good intentions.
I’ve had people come up to me at Costco when I was feeding my baby freshly purchased yogurt and told me I shouldn’t be feeding a baby cold food. It was bad for her health. No, I didn’t bash the old grandma with a brick, but just smiled and said not everyone has the same beliefs. Similar things happen all the time here with regard to the health of my child.
Charlie Jack, I think there is a fine line between standing up for yourself in certain situations and actively trying to get people’s ire.
I actually find it hard to believe that anyone has trouble believing this story may be true. I’ve come close to this many times. Usually for commenting (with the aid of my right middle finger) on the driving skills of more than a few locals.
I understand that there is a lot of murders and other violent crimes in Taiwan but that they are usually not random. Whereas in the USA and other developed nations violent crime is often random.
People got murdered because they happen to be there.
IN Taiwan there is usually a reason someone got murdered.
Yes, I always watch the local news in Taiwan to get an accurate picture of society. It’s just so balanced and non-sensationalistic [/quote]
I watch it for my daily dose of what random things those crazies over in Guangxi are doing. :discodance:
Sigh. Let me say it again, then: I believe such incidents happen. I have my doubts about this one because of the way it was told and other details. Just like I believe there are people as racist and idiotic as Sam Wong, but I don’t believe Sam Wong is a real person talking about real events in his life. Get it now? 
Sigh. Let me say it again, then: I believe such incidents happen. I have my doubts about this one because of the way it was told and other details. Just like I believe there are people as racist and idiotic as Sam Wong, but I don’t believe Sam Wong is a real person talking about real events in his life. Get it now? [/quote]
I looked at some of this “Sam_Wong’s” posts. It’s obvious he’s a fictitious character, trying to be funny on an online forum. The person being discussed here, on the other hand, is a real person who wrote to a newspaper using his own name to describe a real incident that occurred in his life. I’m sorry, but I’m missing the connection between what he did and the Sam Wongs of the internet.
Sigh. Let me say it again, then: I believe such incidents happen. I have my doubts about this one because of the way it was told and other details. Just like I believe there are people as racist and idiotic as Sam Wong, but I don’t believe Sam Wong is a real person talking about real events in his life. Get it now? [/quote]
I looked at some of this “Sam_Wong’s” posts. It’s obvious he’s a fictitious character, trying to be funny on an online forum. The person being discussed here, on the other hand, is a real person who wrote to a newspaper using his own name to describe a real incident that occurred in his life. I’m sorry, but I’m missing the connection between what he did and the Sam Wongs of the internet.[/quote]
Anyone can write in to the paper and make up a story. Do you think they fact check letters to the editor?
.
Also, the name of a Slawomir Starok who apparently lives in Taiwan appears at these URLs (but I can’t swear that it’s the same person):
poland.com.tw/index.php/Communit … -do-Polski
goldenline.pl/slawomir-starok/wypowiedzi
Most of my post was intended ironically. I wasn’t seriously criticizing the quoted posters for their reactions.
On the other hand, I was quite serious about my not wanting to get involved in certain kinds of situations.
This is not intended ironically, either: I admire you for doing what you felt was right. I mean that. But I guess I just don’t have the courage. For one thing, even if I were to defend myself successfully (not likely in my case against several attackers–my past history in adult fights teaches me that I most likely could not have been a contenda), I might still find myself in trouble–either with the law, or with the same people or their friends, or in some other way that I’m not even currently aware of.
But to me there’s another issue: If the general consensus among the Taiwanese is that I should mind my own business, not think too much, not meddle (and that’s the impression I’ve gotten since I got here in 2002), then, all right, I’ll mind my own business. But if I’m barred from acting, I’m also freed from the obligation to act. I wrote the quoted matter below a couple of years back:
[quote]I have an old friend who told me about an interesting experience he had at around age twelve. Late one night he heard some strange noises in the kitchen. He went to the kitchen and turned on the light to see what was going on. There he saw his troubled father, who often wasn’t around at all, and who eventually flew the coop altogether, with his head in the oven and the gas turned on. My friend merely turned the gas off and went back to bed. After relating this story to me, my friend said, “I made up my mind right then and there that I wasn’t personally involved in the things that went on in that house.”
In attitude, I won’t go as far as my friend about my current situation here. But I’ve made up my mind that my involvement in the things that go on here is going to be limited.
Another story: Once I had a wise friend whom I asked for advice to help me get out of a jam I was in. After he finished giving the advice, I said, “So you want me to–” With a sardonic grin, he interrupted me with “–No, no, man, I want you to do exactly whatever you want to do.” Well, that’s the way it is with Taiwan and me. I want Taiwan to do exactly whatever it wants to do.[/quote] [Forumosa - Taiwan's largest and most active Taiwan-oriented global online community in English … 6#p1092366](Vindictive students - normal part of system? - #241 by Charlie_Jack
I’m very very good friends with a person (a long-time poster on here) who works with the fellow and says that things are exactly as described.[/quote]
One of the reasons I have continued to have doubts is that no one seemed to have ever heard of the fellow or the incident despite it happening in New Teepee and despite this thread going on for weeks.
As I said at the beginning, if true I apologize.
I take a dim view of the news here also, but sensational reporting or not, you can’t argue with CCTV or mobile phone evidence, or pixelated pictures of bleeding bodies on the front of your breakfast rag. I don’t think the amateur dramatic society is paid to go around and act out violence in front of closed circuit television by the news agencies, just so they can report their daily dose of violence.
Tommy: As I understand it, a murder usually ends up in death, so whether or not it was random or directed probably makes little difference to the victim.