I really realized where the flaw in my thinking is. It’s not with the observations I’ve made with the sample, it’s actually with the sample itself. When I first got here, I met a lot of people online. I didn’t sign up for a dating thing or anything, but I would just talk to people on the internet as I sat at home - no bars nearby - just wondering what to do at 1 AM. THOSE were the people I am taking my sampling from…not the normal people I run into who don’t display these behaviors.
I have to disagree with you. Maybe I am not using the right words but there are lots of levels of racism and prejudice. Heres an article on it that miltownkid showed me:
I think a KKK member, and a guy who assumes his black co-worker loves basketball, are not at the same level. I’d call the KKK guy racist, and the other Prejudice (or ignorant.) I have had tons of black friends, close friends, who are prejudiced against whites. They always make judgments on white people using preconceived notions, especially when I follow a stereotype. Like I like Ice Hockey and thats known as a mostly white sport so maybe they will assume all white people like hockey. Or maybe they think white people smell funny or something. Those are judgments based on race but for me it doesn’t get in the way for friendship and we definitely don’t hate each other.
I don’t quite follow. A co-worker that could influence management to have a negative impression of his black co-worker, because of his pre-judicial belief that all blacks like basketball, could do way more damage to this black person than some KKK member who this particular black person may not ever come across.
It is when these stereotypes are internalized that they do the greatest harm, because no one questions them as they seem so “natural.”
The same issue I’m pointing out with Freecia because she has internalized her belief that all asian men oppress asian women that she is unaware why she is being considered a “sell out” by others in the asian community.
I don’t quite follow. A co-worker that could influence management to have a negative impression of his black co-worker, because of his pre-judicial belief that all blacks like basketball, could do way more damage to this black person than some KKK member who this particular black person may not ever come across.
It is when these stereotypes are internalized that they do the greatest harm, because no one questions them as they seem so “natural.”
The same issue I’m pointing out with Freecia because she has internalized her belief that all asian men oppress asian women that she is unaware why she is being considered a “sell out” by others in the asian community.[/quote]
I mean I know its hard to believe but I have good friends who are prejudiced against me, and never screwed me over in any way. They just think I do things because I’m white - not because I’m Ian. Just because you have a preconceived notion doesn’t mean you are going to harm others with it.
First, Freecia did not state that she believes that “all Asian men oppress Asian women”. Rather, she posted the following:
She merely made a conscious decision to be open to and accept a relationship with a man who is not Asian because in her admittedly limited personal experience, the Asian men she has known have been oppressive to herself and to the Asian women she knows. She never indicated that she believes that some Asian men oppress Asian women as a function of their race… she indicated that this was a cultural matter.
Girls/women who wish to get married and have a family are in sort of a race against time. We men (a generalization, I know) are all looking for that “hot” babe to settle down with. As the Stones sang, time waits for noone… So, Freecia took a chance on a whitey. Fortunately, for her, it was a gamble that paid off.
I knew a beautiful black girl back in graduate school. She was frequently asked out by African students, and she always declined such invitations. I asked her once why she always turned these guys down. She explained that many African males are very chauvanist, and that she didn’t want to take a gamble of getting into a relationship that she would find uncomfortable. She didn’t believe that all of these men were chauvanists, but believed that a higher percentage of them were (higher than what might be found among American black or white men).
She was not what I would term a racist. She was simply trying to avoid increasing the odds of getting into a relationship with a chauvanist.
I don’t see how Freecia was doing anything different.
Surely within the span of one date you can get a feel for a guy and figure out whether or not he’s a male chauvinist. If you can read human character at all, you can do that. It’s not fair to judge a guy or girl just by their skin color, nationality, or accent. You have to give every person an equal chance.
I mean, it’s only date. It’s not going to kill you to get to know a person a little better by spending a couple of hours with him or her. You’re not obligated to sleep with him/her or for god’s sakes marry him or her! You are not committing to a relationship immediately. So why not go out with that African/Asian/European guy once, if he’s cute? If he’s a chauvinistic, controlling pig, well you can surely pick up on that within a short time, and ditch him and head home as soon as you can. No reason to write off an entire race/nationality of people out of bigotry. If you don’t like a guy, you can always tell him you don’t want a second date. But you must get to know him first before you brush him off. It’s only fair. Their are assholes of all races.
I think Tigerman is spot-on when he pointed out: She never indicated that she believes that some Asian men oppress Asian women as a function of thir race… she indicated that this was a cultural matter.
However, if you reject the culture in which you were raised, I think it’s inevitable to be labeled a “sell-out”. But, if being labeled a sell-out is the price to be paid for escaping the strangle-hold of traditional Confucion/Chinese culture on women, then Freecia is certainly not alone. The number of Taiwanese men being forced to look outside of Taiwan for brides is certainly testiment to that.
And who can blame her for being a sell-out?
Every strong women in history who has rebelled against the constraints of her own culture has been a sell-out.
I think Taiwanese women have been much more successful in internationalizing their thinking than the average Taiwanese man. This automatically put them into conflict with with the roles expected of them by traditional Chinese culture. Plus, in a culture where sons are kept and daughters given away, families have a vested interest in keeping their son’s views more traditional and in line with their own.
Many of the Taiwanese women I know have thinking very similar to Freecia. It’s not a question of rejecting Asian men, but not wanting to give up or compromise so much of themselves to fit in with his families expectaions. My ex-girlfriend is a cautionary tale: she bowed to family pressure to be a good daughter and married a Taiwanese guy and just couldn’t deal with being told what to do all the time by her mother-in-law and was divorced within 1.5 years.
Congratulations Freecia on having the personal strength to know what you want, and be a sell out!
She merely made a conscious decision to be open to and accept a relationship with a man who is not Asian because in her admittedly limited personal experience, the Asian men she has known have been oppressive to herself and to the Asian women she knows. She never indicated that she believes that some Asian men oppress Asian women as a function of thir race… she indicated that this was a cultural matter.
Girls/women who wish to get married and have a family are in sort of a race against time. We men (a generalization, I know) are all looking for that “hot” babe to settle down with. As the Stones sang, time waits for noone… So, Freecia took a chance on a whitey. Fortunately, for her, it was a gamble that paid off.
I knew a beautiful black girl back in graduate school. She was frequently asked out by African students, and she always declined such invitations. I asked her once why she always turned these guys down. She explained that many African males are very chauvanist, and that she didn’t want to take a gamble of getting into a relationship that she would find uncomfortable. She didn’t believe that all of these men were chauvanists, but believed that a higher percentage of them were (higher than what might be found among American black or white men).
She was not what I would term a racist. She was simply trying to avoid increasing the odds of getting into a relationship with a chauvanist.
I don’t see how Freecia was doing anything different.[/quote]
I think you’ve pretty much said how I felt in my mind when I started dating again. I do of course, acknowledge the fact that there are numerous of nice, open minded, non-chauvanistic Asian men, as well as possessive, controlling Caucasian men.
What really made me decide to date someone who is outside of my race and actually, outside of my culture was due to the place I lived in. As mentioned, I spent the first 12 years in Taiwan, being educated to be a proper Asian girl. Comming to America, it sort of opened up the lid of my be-a-proper-Chinese-girl bottle to breath fresher air. It was the kind of freedom I feel that I may not have had I stayed in Taiwan. Just a simple comparism of educational system between Taiwan and America can show the different beliefs between two cultures. My point is, seeing the difference in between two cultures, as well as realizing how Asian men around in my life generally behave, I feel that I just may be able to have a better shot finding someone more suitable outside of my race. [/quote]
Given that she’s posting out of California, culture is a moot issue. Since Asians in America share the American culture. Her generation of Asians has over 50% being born on US soil. So chances of meeting an real FOB is less than 50% if she was dating within her generation. Unless for whatever reason the ABC crowd selected against her because she was too FOB, or vise versa.
She actively discriminated against Asians, a hapa called her on it and labelled her a “sell out.” She recounts not just her experience but the experience of all her female aquaintances, trying to imply to the audience her “entire world” of known Asian males oppress Asian females. Sounds like she already internalized her bias and is seeking approval for it.
The stereotype being the oppressor of the opposite sex is probably the issue her hapa male is addressing.
That is basically my opinion on why her hapa friend jokingly called her a sell out.
Unless she wants to recount her entire conversation with her hapa friend, that is as much insight as I can offer.
[quote]
What really made me decide to date someone who is outside of my race and actually, outside of my culture was due to the place I lived in.[/quote]
This is probably the most important reason. Since Asian 4% of the USA population so chance are high that you will eventual date outside your race.
By your estimation, culture is an issue in at least 50% of the chances she might take. She already admitted that she was generalizing, and thus acknowledged that not all Asian men are oppressive.
So, what is her hapa friend’s problem? Who she dates and or marries is none of his concern.
You have admitted dating white girls. Are you too a sell-out?
Why does this matter to anyone outside of a particular relationship?
So, the hapa is actively discriminating against white/black men and sticking his nose where it doesn’t belong… I’d have a name for that kind of person, and its not as nice as “sell-out”. And what does this term “sell-out” mean, exactly? Is there some problem with dating outside of one’s race? What exactly is being “sold-out”?
Every living breathing one of us humans on this planet have bias. So what? In her limited experiences, Asian men behaved in an oppressive manner. She acknowledged that not all Asian men are oppressive… just the ones she has known in relationships.
Again, she acknowledged that not all Asian men are oppressive. So, what is the hapa friend complaining about? Seems more like he was whining and she felt a need to justify her choice of a husband. Do you really think anyone needs to justify their choice of a mate to an outsider?
Why do I ‘have’ to - isn’t it my choice? If I do not want to date a person of a particular skin color, nationality or accent etc. for whatever reason it’s my decision to make and not for anyone to tell me otherwise, after all it’s my loss if that other person is actually nice.
I see what you are saying but I also understand why someone would not want to waste their time on dates to find that one person out of a certain group/race which is the “exception to the rule”. Call it a preference, and there is IMO nothing wrong with that, even it’s based on negative perceptions / stereo-typing about a certain race.
No idea. You need to ask Freecia or the hapa in question.
But I never tried to justify dating outside my race was due to negative aspects of a culture that I was born in and then left when immigrating to the USA.
In other words, I don’t need to say something bad about asian women, recount a bad experience with asian women, or blame confucius, lao zi, sun tzu, chairman mao, or CKS to justify dating a white woman.
Nor do I need to slight white culture, white men, white women to boost my ego when dating a white woman.
I just accepted the fact geography, hormones, and social compatibility were the major reasons.
[quote=“ac_dropout”]In other words, I don’t need to say something bad about asian women, recount a bad experience with asian women, or blame confucius, lao zi, sun tzu, chairman mao, or CKS to justify dating a white woman.
Nor do I need to slight white culture, white men, white women to boost my ego when dating a white woman.
[/quote]
Do women of any culture generally oppress men?
Why do you think that the OP was trying to boost her ego?
Why do you not think that she was quiet about her choice until goaded into defending the same by her hapa friend?
The OP has made an informed choice not to date guys who fill a certain profile. She has made the connection that most guys from region X fulfill those criteria so she will knock those off her list of ‘boys I might let chat me up.’ Thats not racism. A, she made an informed choice based on experience. B, her decision is her own limitation as Mr Right may well be Asian but she has decided to block his advances based on her decision.
If she said, ‘All Asian boys are blah blah blah,’ I’d think she was racist. But what she said was, ‘based on previous experiences I am going to build a picture in my mind that prevents me from considering dating an Asian man.’
This girl is making a personal risk assessment for her heart. She is not married to a Westerner because she is racist against her own people.
Listen, many you boys who are defending the racial profiling of Asian men are the very same ones who get pissed off when Taiwanese people make negative generalizations about Western men. I could provide many many links of threads where Western guys whine and complain about being stereotyped. You can think that it’s unfair and wrong when it works to your disadvantage, yet reasonable when it works to your advantage, but this is obviously very hypocritical thinking.
If a person chooses to date or not date someone based on race alone, of course that is his or her personal right, but that same person shouldn’t get offended if others think he or she is shallow or racist.
I don’t think I am defending racial profiling. Nor am I condemning it. I am defending a person’s right to choose a mate for him/herself, based on his/her own experiences and perceptions.
The OP did not stereotype Asian men. She explicitly acknowledged that she was generalizing. She acknowledged that some Asian men are not oppressive, and also acknowledged that some white men are oppressive. She was simply playing a numbers game, based on her own information, experience and perception.
So, yes, I resent being stereotyped. But, I am not defending stereotyping in this case.
The choice that the OP made does not at all benefit me. I make myown choices in life and I’m perfectly happy to let others make whatever choices they please in regard to their personal lives. Nothing hypocritical in my thinking on this subject.
Maybe that person does have reason to be offended. Things are not always what they might appear from the outside. The OP explained her reason for being open to and accepting a white SO. She perceives that there are more Asian men than white men who will be oppressive in a relationship. Her perception may be right or it may be wrong. But, she realizes that not all Asian men are oppressive, and thus she realizes that Asian men who are oppressive are likely oppressive as a function of culture rather than of race. Thus, she is not racist, and should very well be offended by an accusation of racism.
Now, I have argued that discrimination based on race is in fact racism (according to one dictionary definition of “racism”). But, I have also argued that this is, IMO, the PC definition of racism. I have argued that all preference, according to this definition, is racist. If a gal prefers black men over white and Asian men, she is discriminating based on race. If her preference is based on looks and cultural tendencies rather than upon notions of race as the determining factor in a man’s character and or ability, then I am happy to accept this preference as a benign form racism, and of a type that should not bother anyone.
My guess is that anyone calling her a racist based on her preference due to her perception of cultural tendencies was not using “racist” as a compliment.
Stereotyping sucks, usually. I agree. But the OP wasn’t stereotyping and I wasn’t defending stereotyping.
But if you refuse to go out with them afterwards? [/quote]
Go out where? From what I have seen most men invite women out to clubs or bars. Yes, I would refuse that. And I have also refused many men with a large assortment of excuses (including that I had studying to do) simply because I was not interested in that particular man.
They may have fucked up socializing from where you are standing, but from where she is sitting it might be you. I for one do not get the idea of going out to a bar to meet a bunch of drunk people I have nothing in common with. I don’t see any reason at all why anyone would want to go start conversations with people they know nothing about.
Just because the girl would rather study than go “play” (and most of these types of “play” are incredibly boring and I would rather hang out with the friends I already have) doesn’t mean she doesn’t socialize. It just means she doesn’t socialize the way you do.
I was a bad boy recently so I’m living under an oppressive 10 p.m. curfew for drinking outside. 
I was a bad boy recently so I’m living under an oppressive 10 p.m. curfew for drinking outside. 
[/quote]