Being blamed by cram school for loss of business

Work Teaching English in Taiwan
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Background: I work at a cram school where students have been going for 7-10 years, and they all cannot break out of A1/A2 level in terms of their ability to express themselves because the school focuses solely on memorization to pass tests. I have a very non-Asian approach to learning (e.g., using one’s brain), so naturally this rubs against their ways of doing things (once, my boss told me that everything I know, everything I learned from TESOL, etc. was all for the books and that I know better than you what works for these kids).

Personal problems: I get to work 6 days a week (not quite reaching 40 hours, but not too far), I’ve not once received overtime pay because I never “asked for it” (my 49-hour week got converted to “overtime cards” where I was forced to take holidays off with the entire school instead of getting pay), and I’ve had overtime denied because “you didn’t tell me ahead of time that you took the essays home.” Ironically, I was told to take the essays home to grade (but because I didn’t say WHEN I took them, I didn’t get it approved… oh, yea, everything needs approval or else).

Now, the ACTUAL situation: a student got paired with another student that was much more capable. I’ve mentioned twice or thrice that they shouldn’t go together, and all calls went ignored. Considering that this student didn’t want to even be there, I asked him why he was there. Was it his motivation to learn English? Naturally, he was there because my boss asked him to be there. Considering that he wasn’t doing his work, I asked him, “Why don’t you quit then? Your parents are responsible for you. It’s your time, it’s your money.” So, he did just that. A week later, I get a message from my boss saying that I made him quit and lost the school $40k. The reason is that they got a call from the mother saying that “my son said the teacher said that learning English this way isn’t useful & asked him to quit. I don’t understand why you hired a teacher that doesn’t agree with your ways.” This student, like most, had failed his English test twice (some have failed 4-5 times because they all learn by memorizing and parroting).

Now, I’m going to take this school to court, but I’m wondering if they can use this as “you lost us business” excuse as leverage against me. It’s not that I was trying to “ruin their reputation,” it’s that I said what was in the best interest of the student who had no interest in being in this school OR class. Thoughts?

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Not uncommon in Taiwan. They’ll pay you less if they can get away with it.

Shouldn’t have done that. You are paid to teach, not convince students to rethink their life choices. They are responsible for themselves.

What for? Did they fire you? Need to look up Taiwan’s labor laws but if it’s “at will employment” there’s nothing you can do.

And being hourly worker sucks in Taiwan, you are literally nothing more than a freelancer in the eyes of employers and labor laws! Basically you got paid your hourly wage and you get nothing else, no bonuses or anything.

Basically in Taiwan, do as you’re told, and no more. Dedication to work is not a trait that’s appreciated in Taiwan. If the boss didn’t tell you to do it, don’t take the initiative. I know it sucks and it runs counter to American work ethics, but you gotta protect yourself too and not let your boss short change you (because they will at every opportunity!)

Which is one reason why so many Taiwanese take twice as long to do something, because there’s nothing to be gained in working hard here.

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Not uncommon in Taiwan. They’ll pay you less if they can get away with it.

Yeah. Well, they’re not going to get away with it, lol.

Shouldn’t have done that. You are paid to teach, not convince students to rethink their life choices. They are responsible for themselves.

Yeah, I can see that. My mistake. But I’m not teaching them–I’m making them MEMORIZE. That’s not OK. That is a waste of their life & time. I want them to pass, but I’m not going to torture them to do that. They will hate me for it. They should have hired a Taiwanese teacher instead to make them memorize.

What for? Did they fire you? Need to look up Taiwan’s labor laws but if it’s “at will employment” there’s nothing you can do.

I’m “salaried” and on the contract. They pay me a “salary” so they think holiday pay and working six days a week straight is “OK” because 1. I “agreed to it” and 2. Everything is included in my salary. But… they have taken out of my pay holidays that I didn’t work because I didn’t make up “hours.” For example, 4/3 is supposed to be a day off because we made that up on Saturday (3/25). But because 3/25 is a regular work day for me, I still got to go in on 4/3 and that doesn’t count as overtime according to their logic.

Basically in Taiwan, do as you’re told, and no more. Dedication to work is not a trait that’s appreciated in Taiwan. If the boss didn’t tell you to do it, don’t take the initiative. I know it sucks and it runs counter to American work ethics, but you gotta protect yourself too and not let your boss short change you (because they will at every opportunity!)

I can see that. I’m not American (I’m European), but we do things not too differently. I also get a ton of work loaded onto me. It seems the more I do, the more I get. My 32 hour contract has turned into regular 45+ hours a week because there’s an infinite amount of sh*t to do. Unbelievable.

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Yea your only recourse is just quit and find another employer, but I suspect the problems will not end with new employers… TW employers are sickingly consistent when it comes to screwing their workers.

Never volunteer for anything. Basically do as you’re told, no more, no less. And take much more time to do something, and pretend to work in the meantime. This is how Taiwanese seems to work, because when you work hard and finish jobs fast, they just heap more jobs onto you. It sucks because you’re being punished for being productive, but it’s just how this society works. Personally I’d fire the unproductive workers and find more productive ones, but that’s not how it works here.

But taking your boss to court is a nuclear button. You are going to be in a world of hurt when you do this.

But Marco says he’s sued his employers for screwing him over, so who knows? I’m sure his lawyer could use the work.

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Yea your only recourse is just quit and find another employer, but I suspect the problems will not end with new employers… TW employers are sickingly consistent when it comes to screwing their workers.

I’m going to quit–I just can’t right now. Actually, I told my employer I want to quit before the contract is up, but the boss said something like, “don’t leave me with all these kids. if you want to quit, tell me a couple of months in advance so I can wind down your schedule.”

I need to go back to school, so I have to look for work afterwards… hopefully I find something that doesn’t suck this much.

Never volunteer for anything. Basically do as you’re told, no more, no less. And take much more time to do something, and pretend to work in the meantime. This is how Taiwanese seems to work, because when you work hard and finish jobs fast, they just heap more jobs onto you. It sucks because you’re being punished for being productive, but it’s just how this society works. Personally I’d fire the unproductive workers and find more productive ones, but that’s not how it works here.

I agree that productivity is important. I also see now (from experience, ha) that doing more is bad for me. I once had to make 1000 books, but I only got up to about 230 or 250. That is why I had to cut hours. Non-stop nonsense. Luckily, I work with OTHER coworkers who ARE productive. Thanks a lot to them for supporting me.

But taking your boss to court is a nuclear button. You are going to be in a world of hurt when you do this.

Why is that? What can they do to me for suing them? There are clear labor violations. I’ve already reported them to the labor department for using a stupid “credit point” system for how to calculate overtime (hint: they go by the hour, not by the minute… yep, so if you work 47 minutes, you won’t get overtime).

But Marco says he’s sued his employers for screwing him over, so who knows? I’m sure his lawyer could use the work.

I’m new to this forum, so idk who this guy is, but if someone has done it, I don’t see why I shouldn’t. I got the proof on paper. Right now they don’t even count the minutes I am in and out–I just sign a paper once a day saying I was there lol.

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They can basically take revenge on you. Reprisals are not uncommon and they’ll also tell other schools what a horrible worker you are so you never get hired elsewhere.

Definitely report them, and report back on whether they take any action or not.

Some people need to be made an example of.

Yea they do this all the time. Instead take a very long time to make a single book. If they figure it takes you say a week to make 1000 books at 40hrs per week, take DOUBLE that time to finish. They’ll see that you can’t do it and assign additional people to the work or maybe not assign quite so much next time, but just be expected to be told that you’re a shit worker and that you ought to be thankful that you even have a job…

By the way they likely won’t actually fire you despite them telling you daily that you are this close to being fired. They’re not stupid either because firing workers for nothing doesn’t help a business.

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They can basically take revenge on you. Reprisals are not uncommon and they’ll also tell other schools what a horrible worker you are so you never get hired elsewhere.

If they do that, I think my overtime would cover the loss. Plus, I know my performance is good because almost every student I have has already passed their tests. If they say I’m incapable, they wouldn’t be able to prove anything. They already owe me the exact amount that I supposedly lost them (like $30-40k, I guess). And they beat their kids. Although I can’t prove it, I doubt the kids are lying about this. They volunteered that information. I just see no reason to negotiate with them any further at this point. It’s annoying.

Even if they tell other schools… I will be moving to another city in Taiwan. Can they really ruin my reputation everywhere? That’s illegal AFAIK. Otherwise I will call everywhere and tell everyone about how they’re child beaters.

By the way they likely won’t actually fire you despite them telling you daily that you are this close to being fired. They’re not stupid either because firing workers for nothing doesn’t help a business.

I figured they need me. The irony.

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Not really, unless you purposefully caused harm to the business, which is hard to prove, or committed fraud. You haven’t described anything worth suing for. It sounds like a crappy school, but forced holidays instead of overtime pay and requiring approval for overtime work is common. I don’t suppose you have time card or other documentation for time you’ve worked at home. You’d be lucky if the school didn’t sue you in return.

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When I was in second grade, that was in the 1980s. The teachers can and will beat you for not doing your homework. They call it “discipline” here and what counts as child abuse back home is basically “doing your job” here.

If you treated prisoner of war the way children are treated here, you’d be guilty of a war crime and would go to prison.

But it comes from a longstanding idea that children are essentially considered properties, which is why when they commit suicide they kill the children first.

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Not really, unless you purposefully caused harm to the business, which is hard to prove, or committed fraud. You haven’t described anything worth suing for. It sounds like a crappy school, but forced holidays instead of overtime pay and requiring approval for overtime work is common. I don’t suppose you have time card or other documentation for time you’ve worked at home. You’d be lucky if the school didn’t sue you in return.

No, I didn’t purposefully cause harm to the business. I was only trying to help the student. I did say I disagree with this school’s methods, but I wasn’t trying to crash the school or anything like that.

Why do you think it’s not worth suing for? $30-40k is a decent amount. According to my calculations, I’d be owed over $100k NTD by my contract’s end. That’s a lot of time to lose.

I have proof that the work I did at home was denied. The boss said it was denied because I didn’t tell the boss up front. Ok, but the work was done. I can easily estimate how long it took based on the average time taken per essay.

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When I was in second grade, that was in the 1980s. The teachers can and will beat you for not doing your homework. They call it “discipline” here and what counts as child abuse back home is basically “doing your job” here.

If you treated prisoner of war the way children are treated here, you’d be guilty of a war crime and would go to prison.

But it comes from a longstanding idea that children are essentially considered properties, which is why when they commit suicide they kill the children first.

That’s terrible. We don’t live in those times, though. Lots of research has been done that has proven corporal punishment wrong and psychologically damaging to children in the long run.

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Yea, but since when has any Taiwanese listened to research? I try to convince my dad to change his idea when research shows something and he absolutely refuses to budge.

In the states if you are owed overtime/off the clock work the business must pay at least 2x what they owed back, in addition to facing penalties as well. But I find penalties for labor violations are so small, that the additional profit would more than pay for the penalties imposed. It’s basically like they would make say 2 million NT by screwing their workers over, and the labor department might fine them 30,000nt for all those violations and NOT demand that they pay what was owed back. It’s basically a fucking joke.

Basically not following labor laws pays dividends in Taiwan.

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Yea, but since when has any Taiwanese listened to research? I try to convince my dad to change his idea when research shows something and he absolutely refuses to budge.

I see. I suppose you got a point. That’s the individual’s choice in that sense. What can you do? Nothing, you’re right. All I can do is help myself here. And I will.

In the states if you are owed overtime/off the clock work the business must pay at least 2x what they owed back, in addition to facing penalties as well. But I find penalties for labor violations are so small, that the additional profit would more than pay for the penalties imposed. It’s basically like they would make say 2 million NT by screwing their workers over, and the labor department might fine them 30,000nt for all those violations and NOT demand that they pay what was owed back. It’s basically a fucking joke.
Basically not following labor laws pays dividends in Taiwan.

That does suck, but I could get the funds owed to me if I went the legal way. Would be worth it for me, no? Although I really don’t know how they’d counter sue me and what I’d lose if they did.

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The problem is if you sue for your owed overtime pay, they’ll just fire you on the spot and you won’t get to complete the contract. Then they’ll try to tack on fees for early termination.

I’d say wait til the tail end of the contract to sue them for it. This way they got less power over you.

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The problem is if you sue for your owed overtime pay, they’ll just fire you on the spot and you won’t get to complete the contract. Then they’ll try to tack on fees for early termination.

They’re not a chain, though. And in the contract it says they have to pay me severance if they fire me.

I’d say wait til the tail end of the contract to sue them for it. This way they got less power over you.

I’ll be leaving this city to go elsewhere in 5-6 months. I was told that suing can take 5-6 months specifically, maybe more. Considering I’m going to the other side of the island, it’s going to be hell if I have to travel to come back.

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Travel cost is the least of it, lawyers cost money too.

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You said above you’re new here, so would suggest not taking TL’s pessimistic opinions on these topics (the usefulness of the labor bureau, and disputes with Taiwanese employers) at face value.

These things have come up a couple of times here before, and despite what TL says I and others have found the labor bureau to be quite useful. I’d start by reading the Labor Standards Act if you haven’t already. It’s available in English, and there’s stuff in there regarding working hours, overtime, and rest days. The first step would likely be mediation rather than directly going to court anyway.

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Travel cost is the least of it, lawyers cost money too.

I don’t even make 50k. There is a legal aid foundation that can help I heard with partial or even full costs depending on your income. And I support two other people. I think it’d be possible for me to pay for it somehow.

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I did check out Taiwan’s LSA. There are a lot of violations so far. The only thing I didn’t like at the labor department is that they said, “well, yeah, they’re breaking the law, but you agreed to it.” Frankly, this answer baffles the hell out of me. I still reported them, however. They said this WON’T recover funds–that requires court/mediation as you said.

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I’m not being pessimistic for no reason, but I do find the attitude of the government here is consistently pro employer. The LSA may be different but like traffic laws, they aren’t well enforced.

In the US they don’t require you to go to court to recover funds, and the US sues for almost everything.