What has proven to be more dominent in MMA western martial arts or Asian?
Is there a dominent style in particular? After looking at the results of the MMA It seems that wrestlers and strikers are proving to be quite hard to beat. Fighters train to defend against bjj guys submissions and then ground and pound them. Size and strenght does seem to be a major advantage.
Guys like Mark kerr and coleman have proven that wrestlers can be unstoppable using sheer strength.They do some basic training in striking like boxing or Muay Thai and BJJ defence and boom kicking ass.
The days of BJJ submitting bigger stronger opponents seem to be fading.
Wrestling seems to be the missing link between striking and submissions.
Coleman was the man for a while-but you need to see his fights against Cro-cop and Maurice Smith to see why wrestling isn’t enough. Having said that. I you could only focus on one style- would you choose ju jitsu or wrestling? This is an interesting question. And I’m inclined to think wrestling is better because of its ability to take a guy down and hold him there- from there any idiot can lay the hammer down on someone’s head.
Exactly what I was thinking. The best thing to do is be on top and ground and pound. You still need to know the defenses against submissions though. Which is a good reason to learn BJJ. If you are having troubles finishing him from the guard you can step back and get him striking again.
So I think being a good wrestler with average striking and bjj skills is good enough to have you holding your own in the ring or the street. Obviously the size and strength of you will determine the degree you will have to be efficient at the striking and bjj.
Bone snapper you make good points. Yes strength and power is very important especially in an open weight competition. For example Hoffman and Abbot are not the most technical fighters around, but if they hit you you go down and out. People like to slag Tank Abott off a lot. Yes his style is very rudimentary and basic but he his record of about 50/50 losses and wins for UFC is a record that most people on this forum should marvel at. UFC has some of the best fighters in the world some of them having black belt dans in the high numbers (not that i care about belts). However a very unskilled competitor like Abbot can walk in there without a black belt and beat around half of the UFC opponents that he fought. Kimo another fighter with some skill but not breath taking technique, very nearly took out Gracie in the early UFC’s and if not for his Pony tail most observers think he would of won (Gracie could not continue to the next round).
Coleman however has more skill but in addition to this has incredible power that like you say helps him just to ground and pound. Even Royce Gracie is not the “small” ju jit su guy that people make him out to be. He is a very tall guy and is around 85 kg i believe. Yes to have skill, obviously is good but so is to have power strength and aggresion. I guess a good match up would be Sakuraba versus Coleman. Then we can see it in action.
Anyway i agree generally with what bone crusher said about the ground and pound. I think people get so bogged down with technical details that they sometimes neglect power and strength to their downfall. By the way before people comment about that idiot power lifter that Hoffman beat up well yeah if you have no technical skill and were born stupid then yeah no amount of strength is going to help you! A good MMA fighter needs everything!
It is incorrect to say that Tank Abbott has little fighting skill. While he has little finesse, he has been involved in combat sports since he was a child. In fact, Tank is a junior college All-American wrestling champion. knucklepit.com/mixed%20marti … abbott.htm
Wrestling has highly effective techniques that allow a fighter to control his opponent on the ground and during standing grappling. In the early days of NHB, this was enough. More recently, you need a lot more than wrestling to win.
Back to Tank. He has lost against all of the top-notch grapplers he has fought. He also lost against Maurice Smith and Victor Belfort, 2 of the best stand up strikers in contemporary NHB. It is not correct to say that raw brute power is enough anymore.
I think the way things have changed in MMA for today standards is the importance of BJJ over other styles. In the past being a good BJJ fighter with average striking and takedowns was the best combo.But now it seems having good BJJ defence and good wrestling skills and average striking will make a good fighter. Especially combined with size and strength.
The bad thing with BJJ submissions is that a failed attempt will usually end in the guy getting a beating.
I see more ground and pound finishes today then submissions compared to a few years back.
Absolutely. The sport is getting far more complex. It’s not enough just to be accomplished at one type of fighting. If you’re not well-rounded, you probably can’t survive.
i am very aware brute strength is not enough. that is why i said “A good MMA fighter needs everything!”
Yes i know tank was a wrestler at college and has boxing experience. My point is that there is very little evidence that he uses much of that in the ring. Yeah his wrestling helps him position people so he can hit them better and his boxing helps him hit them. What i am saying is that Tank with RELATIVELY little skill can go up against people with far more “technical skill” than himself and win. I’m sure if you ask Tank he will agree with that. (Also notice the inverted comments around technical skill). STRENGTH IS IMPORTANT AS IS POWER THAT IS WHY WE HAVE WEIGHT CLASSES IN BOXING AND THE UFC. If two fighters of roughly the same size and strength are matched then of course superior skill wins. If Coleman and Sakuraba were the same size then in my opinion Sakuraba would destroy him, however as it stands now i dont think he would beat Coleman in the best of three fights. That is my opinion.
p.s.
Tank Abott is also still a national class power lifter!
I think the element missing for BJJ which Wrestling has, is the takedown…
I remember one of our wrestlers at 175lbs, ended up state champ that year, he had an incredible takedown. He’d call it too, “I’m going for a single leg…” or “I’m going for a double leg” and even when he tells you it’s coming, you can’t defend against it.
I only learned how to do a double leg well. But when I use to spar against some of my friends who did TKD and Judo, I was surprised that they basically had no concept of sprawling and so I could take them down 100% of the time. At that point, you start dropping the elbows!!
For standup, MT really just dominates, The Thai Clench, and the MT style kicks really just work and work well. Knees and Elbows…
I think you need to have some Boxing, MT kicking, knees and elbows, Takedown defense (i.e. sprawling skills), takedown skills, be good in the guard, and know your submissions if only to get out of them or prevent them from happening.
People like Cro Cop and Liddell have great takedown defense, and so they can work the guy standing. Hughes has great takedown and as much as I hate him, Tito has a great doubleleg… those just GnP you to death.
You no longer are seeing a specific martial art, you are seeing the merging of “whatever works”.
Tank Abott ain’t all that. He did well in the UFC most of the time its because he fought other wrestlers who knew the same stuff he did. He tried to fight in Pride Fighting and got his ass submitted quick style just like Pedro Rizzo. Realistically, UFC have way too many rules that protect their precious wrestlers. Why can’t you kick a wrestler when he is on his knees? So a wrestler can go in motion to take u down but you can’t knock him unconcious with a shin kick while he’s at it?
[quote=“ac_dropout”]I think each MMA is evolving their rules so that they don’t look that the competition don’t look a like, thus giving them marketing distinction.
I’ve always felt it most effect style was dictated by the rules.
I love to see a good flying elbow to the temple for a KO in UFC, but that’s not allowed.[/quote]
Why would you think it’s illegal? I guess it must be because the UFC is just play fighting. Or that’s what I read all the time here.
I’m honored to post after Ma Ke. Good post of his too.
Anyway, no one has mentioned pro football as the best fighting style for MMA. Just kidding of course, but I enjoyed this article in today’s news.
[quote]When Johnnie Morton finished playing wide receiver in the National Football League, he carefully reviewed his retirement options: be host of a talk show, expand his real estate profile, maybe work on his golf game.
After much consideration, Morton decided that it would be best to spend his free time being body slammed into a chain-link fence by two men named Joker and Gun.
“Crazy, huh?” Joker said.
Joker’s real name is Mike Guymon. Gun’s real name is Tony Bonello. Together, they are teaching Morton how to compete in mixed martial arts, one of the few sports that may be more violent and more dangerous than professional football.
“I’ve gotten hit a lot in my life,” said Morton, who spent 12 seasons going over the middle against N.F.L. safeties. “But I’ve never gotten hit like this.”
Morton will walk into a ring for the first time June 2 at the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum, beginning his second career. He expects to ask himself the same question that friends, family members and former teammates have been asking him for months: What in the world are you thinking? . . . .[/quote] nytimes.com/2007/05/22/sport … orton.html
Here he is then and now.
He may lack the years of experience, but he certainly looks fit and is probably a very tough guy. Good luck to him.
[quote=“ScottSommers”][quote=“ac_dropout”]I think each MMA is evolving their rules so that they don’t look that the competition don’t look a like, thus giving them marketing distinction.
I’ve always felt it most effect style was dictated by the rules.
I love to see a good flying elbow to the temple for a KO in UFC, but that’s not allowed.[/quote]
Why would you think it’s illegal? I guess it must be because the UFC is just play fighting. Or that’s what I read all the time here.
Actually, elbows happen a lot in the UFC and Pride.[/quote]
I don’t think it is play fighting at all (so i guess I am not one of the most people on here). I’ve done mixed martial arts and competed (long before most people on here knew what it was . there is no need to get sensitive about it. People are allowed to critisize MMA. Just like they can criticize TMA. Yes many of the world’s best fighters compete in MMA. However AC makes a good point. Look at what is not allowed and it is a very good guide as to what are the most effective techniques to mess someone up with (or land yourself in jail). MMA is a very very tough sport no one denies that. The techniques used are very effective. The techniques banned are generally even more effective (though not always). For example pulliing back the little finger and snapping it, is an effective way of breaking someone’s grip. (most normal people let go). So what he says about banned techniques being effective is a valid point. UFC is a tough sport but that is what it is a “full contact sport”.
However pure ju jitsu also teaches all these banned techniques anyway. So most UFC people know them and would use them in the street, so the UFC fighter would be as good outside the ring as in it. But still a good self defense point by AC.
. there is no need to get sensitive about it. People are allowed to critisize MMA. Just like they can criticize TMA. Yes many of the world’s best fighters compete in MMA. However AC makes a good point. Look at what is not allowed and it is a very good guide as to what are the most effective techniques to mess someone up with (or land yourself in jail). MMA is a very very tough sport no one denies that. The techniques used are very effective. The techniques banned are generally even more effective (though not always). For example pulliing back the little finger and snapping it, is an effective way of breaking someone’s grip. (most normal people let go). So what he says about banned techniques being effective is a valid point. UFC is a tough sport but that is what it is a “full contact sport”.