Best method for recording music from an electric piano?

Life Technology
1

Last year I bought my wife a Yamaha Clavinova CLP-230 electric piano, and she has been learning to play ever since. She wants to record her music and burn a CD to send to her folks. It’s got a PC interface (USB to host), but our PC is in a different room. It would be a pain to move it back and forth, particularly if she wants to record frequently. The piano has the capacity to record three tracks, but unfortunately those tracks are not encoded in a readable format. So it seems like my options are to:

  1. Buy a laptop and small table and put in the piano room. Then buy or download free sequencer software so she can record her music.

  2. Turn in the 230, and buy a 240, which can save tracks in MIDI or WAV format (it was one of the two).

  3. Buy an external device that can be plugged in, which will directly record music.

Got any suggestions on which is the best option and hardware (laptop or external device)/software (audio sequencer)?

2

[quote=“gao_bo_han”]Last year I bought my wife a Yamaha Clavinova CLP-230 electric piano, and she has been learning to play ever since. She wants to record her music and burn a CD to send to her folks. It’s got a PC interface (USB to host), but our PC is in a different room. It would be a pain to move it back and forth, particularly if she wants to record frequently. The piano has the capacity to record three tracks, but unfortunately those tracks are not encoded in a readable format. So it seems like my options are to:

  1. Buy a laptop and small table and put in the piano room. Then buy or download free sequencer software so she can record her music.

  2. Turn in the 230, and buy a 240, which can save tracks in MIDI or WAV format (it was one of the two).

  3. Buy an external device that can be plugged in, which will directly record music.

Got any suggestions on which is the best option and hardware (laptop or external device)/software (audio sequencer)?[/quote]It’s not really sequencing software you need, as the piano already has a basic sequencing function built in. What you need in any case is to record the music in audio format, whether your wife plays the piano directly for the recording, or uses the inbuilt sequencer then plays that back for audio recording.

It really depends how seriously you want to do it. As it’s just for CDs for your wife’s folks I would suggest not going overboard. You can get a nice clean sound using relatively basic equipment.

The best way would probably be to record directly to .wav format and then put that straight onto a CD. That means using a PC and Audacity or other audio recording software. Do you have an old laptop you could use for the purpose? You don’t need anything fancy at all to record regular stereo audio tracks. You could just run the line out from the Clavinova directly into the computer. That would give quite a clean sound. There wouldn’t be any real room acoustics but the Clavinova has reverb settings which would make it sound fine, at least for this purpose.

If you don’t have a spare laptop you could use another recording device such as a recording Walkman or Minidisc. Once you had your audio recording you would then record it onto the PC. There’d be a drop in audio quality, but the result might still be good enough for the purpose.

3

Regarding 2: It’s MIDI (which you can also record on external devices using the 230) but it’s not sound that is recorded, just data (which note is played, for how long etc.). Thus the audio generated would be the sound of the MIDI device, which means you could actually change it into another instrument if said device allows the same.

Anyhow, for recording the actual sound I would go with Joe’s suggestion and record to a PC/laptop (tape deck, Mini-Disk or CD recorder is also possible), using the “AUX OUT” on your piano which will be connected to the Line In of the recording device.
A 10m stereo cable shouldn’t be too expensive, if the length is sufficient to reach the PC and assuming the PC has a sound card with recording function / line in. Just make sure it has the right connectors and you are ready to go.

4

Thanks guys. I do have an old laptop, but when I tried recording with some free software I downloaded (it wasn’t Audacity, it was something else), it said my soundcard lacked a MIDI IN port. So I guess I’m going to have to buy a new laptop with a better soundcard. Damn.

So should I get a Mac or PC? I looked it up online and came across this pretty funny article at Tweakheads:

[quote]Go to any computer gear-head forum, including studio-central, and simply ask this troubling question. Suddenly the air changes around you. For a moment, you sense a cold scrutiny from everyone around you, the same kind of vibe the significant other gave you last year when you forgot valentines day (again!). Senior members, moderators, and administrators rush out of the dugout to say “You didn’t really mean to ask that question, right?” “We’re not going there, Sorry!” But its usually too late. You already stuck your finger directly in the crusty wounds left by a two decades long platform war.

Experienced forum users know that nothing starts a major brawl as quickly as a PC vs. Mac debate. Its kind of like being in my least favored neighborhood tavern on the south side of Chicago. As soon as some idiot shouts out, “I used a Mac for music AND IT SUCKED!” (substitute “PC” if you are already offended). It is as if someone just smashed a beer bottle on the bar! Mayhem ensues. Somebody fuels the jukebox with 30 plays of Elton John’s Saturday Night’s Alright for Fighting. The internet traffic on the forum dramatically rises and people around the world login just to watch the impending bloodbath. In this corner, we have the Mac wine-cooler sniffers, noses high in the air, holding up placards of Steve Jobs, the messiah of Macdom. In that corner, we have the Microsoft quarter-beer slammers, brandishing the banner of Bill Gates, with the evil subculture of code hacks already behind the scenes concocting a virus to slip into their own team’s beer. You have the guys that would rather fight than switch, the ex-hippie peacemakers who try to break it up and make us love each other, the guys that don’t care what side they are on as long as they get to kick some A… and “Big Al” type bouncers that start kicking people off the board and into the alley. Why? Every person feels they have the intelligence to spew the magic utterance that can end the war for eternity. The next person retorts with an insult, and both end up on the floor, rolling in the spilt beer and broken glass. Mac or PC? If you are lucky, a few cogent arguments might make it through the din that actually makes sense.[/quote]

Later on it gives some good info:

[quote]There are some technical differences in the way Macs and PC set up audio and MIDI devices. Clearly, the Mac provides better access to your MIDI and Audio systems in its Audio/MIDI Utility, compared to the Windows Control Panel “Sounds” directory. You can define more details on the Mac. However, this is not a feature you can’t live without as in practice, on a Mac or a PC, one rarely goes there. There’s also a difference in where plugins are stored. On a PC you can create a VSTPlugins folder anywhere you want, whereas on a Mac, they will reside in either your system’s or user library under Audio.

Since Tiger (OSX 10.4) came out on the Mac you can now run multiple audio interfaces. Before this upgrade Windows had a clear advantage.

Macs do not “sound better”. Nor do PCs. That is another myth. The computer never touches the sound anyway, your audio interface’s converters do. Get a RME Fireface for either platform and you have the same, great sound. The math that the CPU uses to execute audio transformations is a function of the application, not the CPU. The plugins and software instruments that affect the sound have nothing to do with platform. Since both machines can use the same hard drives, you won’t find a smoking gun in storage either. Some people claim they can hear the difference between summing algorithms in their mixing applications. But again, its not that its Mac or PC making the difference, its the ways numbers are crunched.

You can evaluate software packages in terms of sound. Today recording software comes with (or lets you add on) sound generators–soft synths, samplers, effects. These “plugins” are not created equal. Apple again is changing the game here. It used to be you’d get a sequencer and it would have some tiny, crappy, half baked software instruments. Logic, before Apple took it over, worked like that. You had to buy all these add-ons. But then Apple decided to put them all in LogicPro and raised the price from around $600 to a cool grand. That shook things up. So the other sequencer makers start adding soft synths and upping the price. Then the surprise! Apple drops the price to $500. Logic Pro is easily the best deal going in sequencers. Am I biased. Oh you bet! One of the better reasons to go Mac is not the superior hardware, its that Apple owns LogicPro, or and the suite of applications in Logic Studio.[/quote]

This guy gives a pretty balanced account in the general article, but it seems like Logic Studio is the best software. However, I looked at the Apple homepage and Logic Studio is not listed in the standard software for a MacBook. Listed are:

[quote]Mac OS X v10.4 Tiger (includes Spotlight, Dashboard, Mail, iChat AV, Safari, Address Book, QuickTime, iCal, DVD Player, Xcode Developer Tools)
iLife ’08 (includes iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie HD, iDVD, iWeb, GarageBand), Microsoft Office 2004 for Mac Test Drive, iWork ’08 (30-day trial)
Front Row [/quote]

I take it this means I would have to download software regardless of whether I buy Mac or PC. Preferably I would like a good reliable system that won’t require too many additional purchases.

For you people who record music, which do you prefer, Mac or PC, and why?

5

[quote=“gao_bo_han”]Thanks guys. I do have an old laptop, but when I tried recording with some free software I downloaded (it wasn’t Audacity, it was something else), it said my soundcard lacked a MIDI IN port. So I guess I’m going to have to buy a new laptop with a better soundcard. Damn.[/quote]No, you shouldn’t need to. I’m pretty sure that the old laptop will be fine. The thing was, you were trying to record MIDI, when you needed to be recording audio. You had the wrong software.

Very basically speaking, MIDI tells a synthesizer (or electronic keyboard/computer soundcard/whatever) what notes to play when. It will also give a suggestion of what kind of virtual instrument the synthesizer might want to use for that, say piano sound, drums, or whatever. But it doesn’t store the actual sounds. Search for MIDI files on the internet. You’ll see they’re very small. Lots are around 50k or less. That’s because they’re not audio files. They’re basically just lists of notes.

Using MIDI makes sense if you want to use lots of instrument sounds and retain a great deal of flexibility and control. However, for getting music onto a CD we’re talking about audio recording, not MIDI. For your wife’s purpose, she doesn’t need to use MIDI at all for the moment.

So I suggest you try that laptop again, with Audacity. Make sure you’ve got the line out/aux out from the Clavinova running into the mic or line in socket on the laptop. You might need to play about with the Windows mixer settings to get the computer to “hear” the input. And later you’ll need to adjust the levels to make sure you get a nice clean recording with no distortion. I can send you a free level meter utility (if I can find it on my old hard drive). But the laptop should work fine for your purposes.

As for the PC/Mac debate, it’s not something you need to worry about unless you’re going to get into serious sound recording/music technology stuff. It’s interesting, sure, but at this level it’s not relevant.

6

Another reason to ignore the MIDI stuff is that the Clavinova has really great piano sound (they record every note of a Steinway at three different weights, as I remember, and interpolate between them), whereas most PC sound cards have /terrible/ piano sound. So if you send someone a MIDI, they get to hear the crappy version.

I’d do what joesax suggests, with Audacity. Have you thought about just buying a really long USB cable? There are limits to how far you can run it, but you may well be inside them.

7

Thanks joesax, that was really helpful. But the laptop is such an old clunker that I think I’ll get a new one for her anyways. I’m really impressed with how quickly she’s advanced and I want her to have the right equipment. I want reliable, easy to use hardware and software. Getting a moderately priced Windows OS laptop and downloading Audacity sounds like a good option. But I’m also checking out Apple’s Logic Studio and I have to say it looks pretty sweet. It’s quite pricy however, at 499 USD. But Logic Express is only 199 USD and seems to have all the necessary features and same single-window interface as Logic Studio. Of course a basic MacBook prices in at 1099 USD, which is quite high considering the Windows-based alternatives.

Have any of used Logic Studio/Logic Express?

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[quote=“gao_bo_han”]Thanks joesax, that was really helpful. But the laptop is such an old clunker that I think I’ll get a new one for her anyways. I’m really impressed with how quickly she’s advanced and I want her to have the right equipment. I want reliable, easy to use hardware and software. Getting a moderately priced Windows OS laptop and downloading Audacity sounds like a good option. But I’m also checking out Apple’s Logic Studio and I have to say it looks pretty sweet. It’s quite pricy however, at 499 USD. But Logic Express is only 199 USD and seems to have all the necessary features and same single-window interface as Logic Studio. Of course a basic MacBook prices in at 1099 USD, which is quite high considering the Windows-based alternatives.[/quote]Right. Audacity’s free, after all! Seriously, a basic XP-powered laptop running Audacity would be stable enough, easy-to-use and reliable. But if you want to get your wife something really nice, then I agree that a MacBook would be a good way to go.

[quote=“gao_bo_han”]Have any of used Logic Studio/Logic Express?[/quote]Nope, but looking at the features, Logic Studio is MASSIVELY overpowered for what you want to do. Good if you/your wife are considering second careers as recording artists though!

Logic Express is also overpowered for your needs but looks user-friendly and lots of fun. You could end up spending a fair amount of time in the music room yourself!

[Edit: I imagine that MacBooks come with an audio recording utility which would be good enough to get you started at least. Can any MacBook users confirm this?]

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gao_bo_han, if you just want to record and something that is easy to use the software you mentioned will be overkill, and it would be a waste of money. Those stuff is for real enthusiasts or semi-pros, offering tons of features you will probably never use unless you want to do more than just making a CD for the in-laws.

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Agreed with Rascal. I’m in electronics, and audio electronics DIY, and had my own synths and drumcomputers etc. and know stuff about MIDI. So let’s enumerate what the most sensible solution is (also told by others here):

You don’t want to use the MIDI interface, as this only sends out the notes played, and not sound. You want to use the audio output (analog). This is commonly known as Line Out or Aux out. You could even use the speaker out connector.

So what connectors does your piano have? Check the manual for this. It always should have some sort of analog output (Line or Aux or Speaker).

Then, you need software on your PC / laptop / Mac. For recording only, this is very basic functionality, you don’t need to spend any money, really. There’s got to be a freeware alternative, i.e. software you can download for free. Maybe you’ve even got it already installed somewhere on your computer [then this software might still be a bit too basic for your use, as you want to be able to see the sound wave you recorded].

Then, for recording using the software of your choice, make sure about the levels. This is damn important. There are two ways to go wrong: a too high level results in distortion (perhaps even inaudible), a too low level wastes the good cd quality and increases noise. Find out where in the software you can control the levels, and do recording tests. (Maybe the software shows VU meters? You know, the level indicating lights, green + red, that ‘dance’ up and down with the music; make sure there is a margin). After recording, you use the software to look at the wave form to see if the levels are fine (there must be a function to find the highest peak, which is helpful; darn you might need a bit more advanced software anyway, the simpler software mostly doesn’t offer this).

Lastly if you use a long audio cable (more than 8m?), just use a good cable with thick wire. Otherwise you might feel your recording sounds a bit muffled because higher frequencies are affected.

11

It has a Aux Out (fixed level), see CLP-230: Specifications.

12

OK, that will do fine, it should be connected to the Line In of the audio card in the computer.

I think “Audacity” will do quite well as recording / editing software though it has many unneeded functions… it turns out to be free anyway.

13

You might also consider an external interface that acts like a soundcard. Then transmits to the computer via Firewire. There are a lot of models on the market, like Edirol FA 66 sweetwater.com/store/detail/FA66/ . But also from M-Audio (Which have a great reputation and good support) and others .

The benifit is they usually have multiple channels, some with microphone inputs, line inputs, and instument inputs. Gain on the inputs/outputs, monitoring, phantom power for the microphones and so on, which is much too much for a soundcard on the computer.

While most of these can be bus powered by the Firewire, computers are very noisy, and using a decent external soundcard device which can properly isolate and get rid of the noise from the computer before conversion to digital is a real plus.

Also, some of these will come with bundled software like Cubase Le , which will be fine for recording both analog and midi , and is much easier to work with than Audacity. Most of the external soundcards will also provide midi in/outs as a feature.

14

These kinds of devices are good, Mick. Definitely another good option.

But in the interests of keeping things simple it’s worth remembering that all the OP’s wife needs is a stereo input. No multiple channels, no monitoring, and no phantom power! And while computer soundcards are too “noisy” for professional recording these days, I never actually noticed any noise when I was using a computer soundcard for home recording a while back. Also, while stripped-down sequencers are fairly easy to use, they do have a whole bunch of functions still. I don’t honestly think that there’s much easier than Audacity or similar if you just want to record a few stereo tracks.

[quote=“Mick”]You might also consider an external interface that acts like a soundcard. Then transmits to the computer via Firewire. There are a lot of models on the market, like Edirol FA 66 sweetwater.com/store/detail/FA66/ . But also from M-Audio (Which have a great reputation and good support) and others .

The benifit is they usually have multiple channels, some with microphone inputs, line inputs, and instument inputs. Gain on the inputs/outputs, monitoring, phantom power for the microphones and so on, which is much too much for a soundcard on the computer.

While most of these can be bus powered by the Firewire, computers are very noisy, and using a decent external soundcard device which can properly isolate and get rid of the noise from the computer before conversion to digital is a real plus.

Also, some of these will come with bundled software like Cubase Le , which will be fine for recording both analog and midi , and is much easier to work with than Audacity. Most of the external soundcards will also provide midi in/outs as a feature.[/quote]

15

[quote=“joesax”]These kinds of devices are good, Mick. Definitely another good option.

But in the interests of keeping things simple it’s worth remembering that all the OP’s wife needs is a stereo input. No multiple channels, no monitoring, and no phantom power! And while computer soundcards are too “noisy” for professional recording these days, I never actually noticed any noise when I was using a computer soundcard for home recording a while back. Also, while stripped-down sequencers are fairly easy to use, they do have a whole bunch of functions still. I don’t honestly think that there’s much easier than Audacity or similar if you just want to record a few stereo tracks.

[/quote]

Cool, no worries. I agree, simple is easy. K.I.S.S. , keep it simple stupid. Your way is cheep, and works!! My laptop has great audio output, no need for fancy equipment and records just fine, my skype calls never have a problem.

I cant plug in a Midi cable though, damm things are too big and sound cards dont have a 5 pin din. Midi is cool by the way, not just for sounds, but for backing up your instuments memories and many other functions.

The last time I tried Audacity, it was not nearly as easy to use as Cubase. Maybe you are more familiar with it than I, but this is saving cost, are you really saying Audacity is easy to use than Cubase?

It might sound “fancy” the way you word it, “phantom power” oohhhh. But its just a decent microphone input for someone to sing along, is a little head mic for 199Nt really any good?

Ack, phooy , whatever…

16

[quote=“Mick”]The last time I tried Audacity, it was not nearly as easy to use as Cubase. Maybe you are more familiar with it than I, but this is saving cost, are you really saying Audacity is easy to use than Cubase?[/quote]I think Audacity went to version 2 a couple of years ago. Maybe you were using version 1 or something? Anyway, I reckon Audacity’s probably easier for someone who just wants to record some audio and do some basic editing, just because it has far fewer options than something like Cubase. I used to use Cubasis, not the full version of Cubase, but IIRC it still took me a while to get used to all the sequencing/audio recording functions. (The last “sequencing” I’d done before that was just on a Boss drum machine/bassline generator). It took me about ten minutes to get started with Audacity.

[quote=“Mick”]It might sound “fancy” the way you word it, “phantom power” oohhhh. But its just a decent microphone input for someone to sing along, is a little head mic for 199Nt really any good?[/quote]If I were going to do any semi-serious home recording now I’d definitely consider one of those external boxes. The flexibility regarding inputs etc. is one of the reasons. MIDI is another (though my old soundcard did actually have MIDI via adapter cables).

But back to the OP, he doesn’t even need to be thinking about mics for now. Unless he wants to spend a fair bit of money and time fiddling about with a bunch of stuff, I think he’s going to get a better piano sound by using the Aux out on the Clavinova.

Anyway, as you say, no worries! I used to be quite into music/recording technology and it’s interesting to talk about this stuff.

17

excellent!! I like to talk about this stuff too, and I’m sure the OP doesn’t need to be told what not to consider, but can make informed decisions. So, bearing in mind all of my suggestions might be completely unsuitable to the OP , I have a couple more.

By the way, I haven’t tried Audacity in the last couple of years, thanks for the tip, I’ll try again and see how it fits.

One point brought up was the wish to transmit from room to room. There are wireless devices that can get rid of the need for a cable to run to the computer.

And my favorite newish device, the tranzport, allows you to remotely control your audio applications by rf, no wires, and you can start , stop recording , monitor levels and so on.

just talking…

18

I’ve just read this thread with interest because I have a songwriter friend who’d like to get some sort of home studio set up. This would need to be more advanced than the simple piano recording the O/P is after.

Ideally, this would be able to handle more complex recordings than just a simple demo – up to, say, a six-piece band (real or virtual). My friend is not particularly knowledgable about computers (though he does know something of how to work studio boards), so user-friendly setups would be best. On the other hand, he doesn’t have the money for some super Mac dream system.

His primary instrument is guitar, so he’d need to be able to plug that in.

In addition to the above, the system should be able to:[ul][li]make multi-track recordings[/li]
[li]mix the tracks to a stereo mix[/li]
[li]export to something that can be played in standard CD players[/li]
[li]supply a range of filters / virtual pedals that could be applied to individual tracks[/li]
[li]provide a click track[/li]
[li]synthesize other instruments (through an electric piano keyboard input, if necessary)[/li]
[li]have good drum program (or be able to import this from separate hardware, if that would be cheaper and easier)[/li]
[li]not sound like shit[/li][/ul]If other musicians could add their own tracks to a song without having to be physically in the same space as his computer, that would be a plus.

And a laptop would be better for his general computer needs than a desktop, if a laptop could handle this.

Would it be possible to do this for less than US$1,000?

19

Haha, a laptop cannot handle this. A desktop system is cheaper AND more powerful AND you can plug in any kind of audio board.

There certainly are audio boards that support multitrack but I cannot recommend anything. Using your PC would be best for all this. You couldn’t afford all this equipment with 1000US$ (I mean mixer panels and effects equipment etc.) anyway.

Software, I thought about FL Studio (former Fruity Loops). But again, there’s also so much choice here.

20

[quote=“Ectoplasma”]Haha, a laptop cannot handle this. A desktop system is cheaper AND more powerful AND you can plug in any kind of audio board.[/quote]I agree that a desktop is more powerful. And the 1000 USD budget’s a bit tight. But I think it should be possible with a laptop and some kind of external soundcard such as the one Mick mentioned above.

My desktop of nine years ago could do everything that Cranky mentions (mostly through the sequencing/recording software including effects plugins, though it did have a decent soundcard with MIDI and digital inputs/outputs). Any standard laptop now is more powerful than that old desktop. The only thing is to get a reasonable external sound module/card.