Best/most economical auto for the mountains?

Life Cars & Motorcycles
1

A lot of the discussion on here about purchasing cars revolves around driving them in the city, especially Taipei.

I have no interest in driving in Taipei, as my blood pressure gets dangerously high every time I do! :fume:
I’ll take the MRT, thank you.

So, what do you guys recommend for something thats good to get out of the Taipei area and into the mountains, especially central and southern Taiwan? I’d like something that can handle typhoon-damaged or primitive roads as thats the conditions in a lot of the places we like to go (Alishan NSA, rural Nantou county etc.)

The main qualifications are: costs under 400,000NT, displacement under 3000cc (for tax reasons) and strong enough to handle the aforementioned bad roads.

Fuel economy and cost of maintenance are also a factor too.

One question I have in particular is whats better for bad roads, a 2WD with a truck chassis(MPV’s like Innova, Zace, Zinger etc.) or a 4WD with a car chassis (crossover SUV’s like CRV, X-Trail etc.)?

The third option would be a 4 cyl 4WD van like the Mitsubishi Delica or Space Gear (but those look a bit big and thirsty?)

2

My choice for a typhoon damaged mountain road would be high-clearance 2wd over low-clearance 4wd. You don’t have to deal too much with stuff like deep mud or sand, but you have big rocks and mounds of stony soil.

3

Yeah that’s why I was thinking something like the Toyota Innova might work. They are pretty ugly looking vans but they look like they have pretty decent clearance (I’ve also read that the Innova’s predecessor, the Kijiang/Zace was designed for Indonesia’s bad roads).

I’d love something like a 4WD Innova or Zinger. AFAIK, nobody offers a cheap, simple, reliable 4WD wagon in Taiwan anymore. Seems like the Mitsubishi Delica fit that role but I think they have been out of production since '05 or '06. I wonder if anyone will come out with something else to replace all those aging Delicas and Suzuki Escudos that mountain folk use.

4

Cheap fix: fit twiddle brakes to a 2-RWD truck.

5

shenme dongxi

6

Well you could use the evil power of Google to find out. Bit busy at the moment.

Anyway, I droned on about it extensively in an old thread and was pointedly ignored. Not putting myself through THAT again.

'Mericans call them “cutting brakes” or summat like that. Though they usually mis-spell the brakes bit.

7

I too would generally advise a taller 2wd. The majority of 4x4s including the CRV can’t handle serious offroading anyway and most are driven with road tyres on. In the past we have pulled out stuck [so called] 4x4s fitted with road tyres with 2wds. This isn’t to say that 4x4s aren’t as good in rough conditions as 2wds, but for the majority of conditions you will only ever need a 2wd.
I would say the next question is front wheel versus rear wheel drive. The Innova is rear wheel drive and it has no limited slip diff. This can offer no advantage whatsoever on a muddy or slippery mountain road. In fact only its ground clearance may be an advantage at all.
Also another thing to consider with a commercial vehicle such as an Innova is its suspension. The manual Innova has stiffer suspension than the autobox Innova due to its typical usage being commercial use over passenger use. I’d likely go for the auto-box version in this case, although of course a manual box may be more advantageous in dealing with hill climbs at times.

One of the most important factors in travelling the mountains with a family is ride height. A taller vehicle may offer good viability, but it can seriously cause people to feel the onset of travel sickness more easily, and can also very much affect overall travel times. An extreme example of mine is the four hour time difference between a Ford Windstar and my Toyota Prius from Taipei to Taichung. I have done both trips in both vehicles, and there is no way I could ever hope to match the comfort or speed of a shorter, flatter handling car with a tall roly vehicle.

I might also add that whenever I have seen typhoon road damage anywhere down the east coast for example, either any car could get beyond it, or nothing at all could. There seem to be few instances where some might and others might not if you understand what I mean.

I think generally living around the mid to southern areas of the island I might seriously recommend a Subaru Forester or Legacy Outback as perhaps the best vehicles overall. They unify reliability with practicality and strong performance for their required usage. They aren’t as fuel efficient as most 2wds, but what they loose in fuel consumption, they make up for in all other aspects. It really depends on the needs though and I would only recommend them if you were commonly needing basic 4wd and a higher ride height.

1 Like
8

You can’t generally use “the handbrake trick” to defeat a spinning wheel on FWD vehicles, because it operates on the undriven wheels.

Some (early?) SAAB are, I believe, an exception, since the handbrake operates on the front (driven) wheels for exactly that reason, despite the increased complexity that involves. (Sweden is snowy)

By extension, its much more complicated to fit twiddle brakes to a FWD.

9

[quote=“Ducked”]Well you could use the evil power of Google to find out. Bit busy at the moment.

Anyway, I droned on about it extensively in an old thread and was pointedly ignored. Not putting myself through THAT again.

'Mericans call them “cutting brakes” or summat like that. Though they usually mis-spell the brakes bit.[/quote]

I did use the evil power of google and it yielded nothing useful. Or perhaps my abilities in the Queen’s English are insufficient for this particulary query.

I’m sure you’re going to go google it now and find exactly what you are talking about hahaha. Or you can just explain the idea in a nutshell. I won’t ignore you (at least not pointedly). :smiley:

10

[quote=“sulavaca”]

I might also add that whenever I have seen typhoon road damage anywhere down the east coast for example, either any car could get beyond it, or nothing at all could. There seem to be few instances where some might and others might not if you understand what I mean.[/quote]

I used to think the same thing but the more I go exploring the more I get into hairy spots that are just no fun in a car. For example, a couple months ago we were trying to get from Yunlin Caoling to Chiayi Rueili and while we could get through, it was very nerve-wracking. I had to pick my track carefully and even then I was scraping bottom quite a bit. It wasnt to muddy, just very rocky and uneven. Yes, the car made it through but it was not an enjoyable experience.

Sure I’m a big Subaru fan in general but can those models even be sourced here? You cant drive 30 seconds in Portland or Seattle without seeing an Outback but I dont recall ever seeing one here. And as for Foresters I’ve only seen very new ones that doubtless cost more than 400,000.

So, unless you think you can find me a good Subaru in my budget (which would be great!) I think we are looking at Innova, X-Trail or Space Gear 4WD - three fairly different options.

Do you have any experince with the Space Gear 4WD (manual trans, 2.4L petrol)? It’s a bit big for my old lady’s tastes but it seems to be the only vehicle that fits all of our criteria (shoulder belts for car-seat, high ground clearance, smaller engine, 4WD). Plus I’m really keen on two aspects of this truck - first, the roomy interior with captains chairs means we can take baby and 2 friends with us on our adventuring and second the the SuperSelect drivetrain because it has 2WD, 4WD and AWD modes. I’ve also heard that compared to the older Delica they handle more like a car (which is quite a relative comparison, I know). I’m sure residuals and fuel economy wont be as good but are they reasonably reliable?

And one last thing, speaking of residuals, what do you think has better resale value in 4 or 5 years, a 2003-2005 X-Trail or 2007-2008 Innova?

11

How about a jeep? you can get some nice jeeps with basic modifications that would give you all the clearance that you need… if you buy one with stock engine then its a 2.5L which is not bad… you can also try a Cherokee… that one has more room inside and will give you all the off road capabilities that you need just to drive in Taiwan… i have a jeep to go to the beach and be able to bring my dog with me… since i dont care if it gets dirty… and i also recently purchased a rodeo… many here should know it since it was MJB’s Rodeo :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: its fully off road ready with even manual front lockers…
at some point i was thinking on the infinity QX4… its not bad and you can find it for a reasonable price, make sure its a 2001 and up model since the engine is 3.5L, the older ones are 3.3L and sometimes people would say they lack of the extra power…

12

[quote=“PaddyB”]
So, unless you think you can find me a good Subaru in my budget (which would be great!) I think we are looking at Innova, X-Trail or Space Gear 4WD - three fairly different options.

Do you have any experince with the Space Gear 4WD (manual trans, 2.4L petrol)? It’s a bit big for my old lady’s tastes but it seems to be the only vehicle that fits all of our criteria (shoulder belts for car-seat, high ground clearance, smaller engine, 4WD). Plus I’m really keen on two aspects of this truck - first, the roomy interior with captains chairs means we can take baby and 2 friends with us on our adventuring and second the the SuperSelect drivetrain because it has 2WD, 4WD and AWD modes. I’ve also heard that compared to the older Delica they handle more like a car (which is quite a relative comparison, I know). I’m sure residuals and fuel economy wont be as good but are they reasonably reliable?

And one last thing, speaking of residuals, what do you think has better resale value in 4 or 5 years, a 2003-2005 X-Trail or 2007-2008 Innova?[/quote]

Going from back to front,the Innova will have better residuals, but only if you start with one two years old plus.
Innovas also sell better as they can be used commercially as well as privately, whereas X-Trails don’t often make suitable commercial vehicles.

As Space Gears are getting long in the tooth now, finding decent ones gets harder. They aren’t as reliable as innovas and don’t take punishment as well. The engine compartment can at times be fiddly to work in, especially when fixing a common oil leak close to the rear rocker cover area.

Subarus are harder to find, but Iguess i wastrying primarily to answer the question which the topic heading states. Iwasn’t thinkingof it from a sourcing stand point. Mind you there was a decent Forester for sale a few weeks ago which I could ask about if you were interested and serious about buying a car.

Ducked: You can’t seriously expect most people to want to fiddle and twiddle as much as you like to. I’m sure most would simply prefer to handle just a single knob! :wink:

13

Granted. The point about the “handbrake trick” in relation to FWD v. RWD doesn’t involve any extra knobs, though. It’s what you do with the knob that makes the difference. Allegedly.

Re twiddle brakes, although I think they offer a lot of bang-for-the-buck in this context (along with picking the right tyres at replacement time,) I dunno where you’d get them fitted in this country, and most people won’t be up for DIY.

“Off-roaders” won’t generally be interested (though they are sometimes fitted to Jeeps in the US) precisely because it doesn’t involve large heavy expensive pieces of macho-inery.

14

Had a loan of a Forester in Oz a few years ago and liked it a lot. After that, though, I’d have thought I’d have tended to notice them here, but I can’t remember seeing more than one or two. Not a “scientific survey” of course, but I’d be surprised if there were a lot of them about.

15

[quote=“PaddyB”][quote=“Ducked”]Well you could use the evil power of Google to find out. Bit busy at the moment.

Anyway, I droned on about it extensively in an old thread and was pointedly ignored. Not putting myself through THAT again.

'Mericans call them “cutting brakes” or summat like that. Though they usually mis-spell the brakes bit.[/quote]

I did use the evil power of google and it yielded nothing useful. Or perhaps my abilities in the Queen’s English are insufficient for this particulary query.

I’m sure you’re going to go google it now and find exactly what you are talking about hahaha. Or you can just explain the idea in a nutshell. I won’t ignore you (at least not pointedly). :smiley:[/quote]

Ok, well, in a coconutshell, the “handbrake trick” is intended to get you out of a situation where one driven wheel looses grip and spins. The differential sends all the drive to the spinning wheel, so the other driven wheel (which might still have grip) gets no drive and you stay put.

Applying the handbrake lightly feeds some torque through to the wheel with grip and you move, though you move against the resistance of the applied handbrake. (Very) poor man’s limited slip differential.

Twiddle brakes split the handrake system into two halves, so you can apply the handbrake independantly to the slipping wheel only. Since the handbrake system has two cables which converge in a yoke near the handbrake, its relatively simple to separate the two and connect them to separate levers, and theres hardly any extra hardware involved, though the cable routing might require extra or larger holes in the floor.

Although they are sometimes fitted to 4WD vehicles the main application I’m aware of is in the Trials motor-sport, which AFAIK is restricted to the UK. This involves (or involved, I’m not sure what the current status is) driving up muddy hills against time, in 2-seater, 2WD open “sports cars” vaguely reminiscent of the Lotus 7, though I think some classes were specially built, with centre-pivot front axles of extreme articulation.

Events were televised in the UK on Saturday mornings in the 60’s, when I was a regular viewer.

Co-drivers were usually women, and it apparently helped the tyres grip if they were big, and bounced up and down a lot. Large women bouncing up and down in sports cars in the mud probably made a big impression on me as a young lad, which may be the real reason I think twiddle brakes are great, though they are.

But tell that to kids today, and they’ll not believe you.

Anyway I’m droning on gain, just ignore me pointedly.

Already discussed ad nauseam http://www.forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=80885&hilit=fiddle+brakes

(though the link to the DIY fitment to a Vitara is unfortunately but predictably dead.)

16

[quote=“Ducked”]
Twiddle brakes split the handrake system into two halves, so you can apply the handbrake independantly to the slipping wheel only. Since the handbrake system has two cables which converge in a yoke near the handbrake, its relatively simple to separate the two and connect them to separate levers, and theres hardly any extra hardware involved, though the cable routing might require extra or larger holes in the floor.[/quote]

Excellent! See, I’m totally glad I asked! :bravo:

17

[quote=“sulavaca”]
As Space Gears are getting long in the tooth now, finding decent ones gets harder. They aren’t as reliable as innovas and don’t take punishment as well. The engine compartment can at times be fiddly to work in, especially when fixing a common oil leak close to the rear rocker cover area.[/quote]

I still see pretty new ones ('03 - '05 models) quite a bit on the SUM website but the nicer looking ones are still a bit pricey (350,000-450,000NT) and almost none of them are ever in the Taipei area. Also, It surprises me a bit to hear you say they don’t take punishment that well as I fairly often see them set up for serious offroad use (snorkels, big tires and all that). But I guess those people have to replace parts all the time anyway so it doesnt make much difference to them.

[quote=“sulavaca”]
Subarus are harder to find, but Iguess i wastrying primarily to answer the question which the topic heading states. Iwasn’t thinkingof it from a sourcing stand point. Mind you there was a decent Forester for sale a few weeks ago which I could ask about if you were interested and serious about buying a car.[/quote]

Yes, please do. I just sent you an email about this as well.

18

But not really necessary. See link in edited previous post.

19

[quote=“omerojs”]How about a jeep? you can get some nice jeeps with basic modifications that would give you all the clearance that you need… if you buy one with stock engine then its a 2.5L which is not bad… you can also try a Cherokee… that one has more room inside and will give you all the off road capabilities that you need just to drive in Taiwan… I have a jeep to go to the beach and be able to bring my dog with me… since I don’t care if it gets dirty… and i also recently purchased a rodeo… many here should know it since it was MJB’s Rodeo :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: its fully off road ready with even manual front lockers…
at some point I was thinking on the infinity QX4… its not bad and you can find it for a reasonable price, make sure its a 2001 and up model since the engine is 3.5L, the older ones are 3.3L and sometimes people would say they lack of the extra power…[/quote]

We would love a Jeep but they just dont seem like a practical ride for us and our 1 year old son. Also, I think many of them in Taiwan have been used as rental vehicles (like out in Manjhou near Kenting) before or have seen pretty heavy use.

Cherokee - i dig 'em, thats the car my parents had when I was a kid. but the tax and fuel costs would kill us!

Rodeo - already had an Isuzu which I loved to death but it was a dog. Not particulary a brand I trust.

QX4 - I think that would be a great rig and my girl really fancies them but again, the tax is too high for us on top of monthly payments, interest etc.

So we are definitely looking in the under 3000 cc range which puts most offroad capable rigs (Pajero, Challenger, Isuzus, Jeeps etc.) out of consideration. I think the Mitsubishi Space Gear 4x4 is the only offroad vehicle I’m still considering. It’s an ugly ass minivan but at least it has a Pajero chassis and drivetrain underneath!

20

[quote=“PaddyB”]Rodeo - already had an Isuzu which I loved to death but it was a dog. Not particulary a brand I trust.

QX4 - I think that would be a great rig and my girl really fancies them but again, the tax is too high for us on top of monthly payments, interest etc.

So we are definitely looking in the under 3000 cc range which puts most offroad capable rigs (Pajero, Challenger, Isuzus, Jeeps etc.) out of consideration. I think the Mitsubishi Space Gear 4x4 is the only offroad vehicle I’m still considering. It’s an ugly ass minivan but at least it has a Pajero chassis and drivetrain underneath![/quote]

The Mitsubishi makes a rubbish off-road without modification. Also its a top heavy passenger van, so super thirsty and wobbly at every bend. Its good for moving people at a budget, yes, but I wouldn’t personally choose one as mountain transport. I’d go for a two wheel drive before a 4x4 SpaceGear.