Better Christians?

[Tigerman]

[quote=“tigerman”]Hakka,

I swear quite a bit. Its a “bad” habit of mine. I do not regard the word “Hell” as being particularly offensive… and in any event, I am under no obligation to treat Ke di er as if his vulnerability is egg-shell fragile. I’m not exactly throwing him to the lions, am I?

I was raised Roman Catholic and still maintain very close ties with many priests and brothers. Some of them swear like drunk cowboys. Hell, some of them drink like drunk cowboys… anyway… If Ke di er considers the word “Hell” offensive, then he’s in for a very rough life. Especially if he’s going to initiate discussions regarding how we might all “better” ourselves.

Talk about being “provocative”![/quote]

[quote=“HakkaSonic”]But you were so careful in the Pink Martini thread, you didn’t even use the “N-word.”

@tigerman in another thread

I’m uncomfortable with the words “queer” and “fag” and I don’t use them to refer to gay people. IMHO, using the word “queer” in these threads is like having a black thread and calling it “n----r news”. I would find that very offensive.[/quote]

That’s right. Those words are offensive to me because they are derogatory. How is the word “Hell” in any way derogatory?

@Hakkasonic

Actually, I’m not comfortable referring to people as “queers” and “fags” either, nor with “n…r.” I’m also not fond of using words like “hell” with Christians. I didn’t grow up with priests and ministers that swear like drunk cowboys. I did have a Christian roommate (evangelical) for one year. He wasn’t bothered by the use of the word hell in movies, but was bothered if I used it when talking to him. He saw it as disrespect, since I could have made the same point without using the word “hell,” but chose not to even though I knew the word bothered him).

1. How is the word “Hell” disrespectful?

2. As I have stated, I know plenty of Christians (you do regard Catholic priests and brothers as “Christian”, don’t you?) who swear like cowboys. How would I know that Ke di er is particularly offended by the word?

@Hakkasonic

That was my basic point in the beginning, that there is a good chance that a Christian will be bothered by that word, so why even go there?

I disagree with everything you’ve said here. But I can tell you this… I went to Catholic grade school and Catholic college… I have lived with priests and brothers in a mission here in Taiwan. I know quite a few Christians (including my mother) and in my experience, I cannot recall a single one who was offended by the word “Hell”.

So why should I even have worried about this matter? You’re making a mountain out of a mole hill, and worse, IMO, you are letting Ke di er get away without clarifying his meaning… which was my goal in the beginning… i.e., to understand his meaning.

[Ke_di_er]

This is not a reply to TM but to all those out there with an opinion too.

No, Tigerman’s goal was not to clarify anything, most threads don’t bug him but Christian ones do. Provoking people, that he is good at. Nah, threads about America get him too.

Point is this, most Christians who come to Taiwan do not end up being better people, perhaps in their own eyes only, but nevertheless a high percentage fall away from their original convictions. No one ever said that Taiwan is a bad place because it has less Christians, at least I never said that. What is true, saying this with out a link but I didn’t record the TV broadcast, Taiwan looses more Christians than anywhere else, local and foreign Christians included. Why is that? Far from home, support etc.? I don’t know.

I wasn’t offended by “Hell”, it’s just a word. No, I read it as Tigger being defensive, at least that was the tone I read into it. I read it as him meaning that I was impling that in some way he wasn’t better, or that I was suggesting that Christians were in some way better, I wasn’t and never would.

As for those who aren’t Christians too many become totally out of touch with reality after living in Taiwan for a period of time. Somethings just go to their heads.

So, how to be a better person, who knows, we all try, and in some ways we all fail. We live and we learn.

I find that being a better person is to be more Christlike, some of us are after all genetically pre-disposed to want to be Christlike. We can’t help it, it’s in our genes. I guess Tigerman is disposed to becoming more doberman like.

[Tigerman]

[quote=“Ke di er”]This is not a reply to TM but to all those out there with an opinion too.

No, Tigerman’s goal was not to clarify anything, most threads don’t bug him but Christian ones do. Provoking people, that he is good at. Nah, threads about America get him too.

Point is this, most Christians who come to Taiwan do not end up being better people, perhaps in their own eyes only, but nevertheless a high percentage fall away from their original convictions. No one ever said that Taiwan is a bad place because it has less Christians, at least I never said that. What is true, saying this with out a link but I didn’t record the TV broadcast, Taiwan looses more Christians than anywhere else, local and foreign Christians included. Why is that? Far from home, support etc.? I don’t know.

I wasn’t offended by “Hell”, it’s just a word. No, I read it as Tigger being defensive, at least that was the tone I read into it. I read it as him meaning that I was impling that in some way he wasn’t better, or that I was suggesting that Christians were in some way better, I wasn’t and never would.

As for those who aren’t Christians too many become totally out of touch with reality after living in Taiwan for a period of time. Somethings just go to their heads.

So, how to be a better person, who knows, we all try, and in some ways we all fail. We live and we learn.

I find that being a better person is to be more Christlike, some of us are after all genetically pre-disposed to want to be Christlike. We can’t help it, it’s in our genes. I guess Tigerman is disposed to becoming more doberman like.[/quote]

Well, at least you’ve clarified yourself with respect to what “better” means.

Now, care to discuss what characteristics you believe would make you (or anyone) more “Christlike”? That would be an interesting discussion, IMO.

But if you’re not up for it, so be it.

[Mother_Theresa]

Well for one, Tigerman, it helps if your mother’s a virgin.

Seriously, Hakkasonic, I don’t think anyone on this forum would harass a person for “coming out” as a christian, just as no one harassed Tomas for coming out as a former mormon. In fact, people seem to have enjoyed the interesting perspective Tomas has shed on that church. What riles people, though, is when members of any religion take the position of Ke, that they are superior to others because of their religion. That’s where most people draw the line and tell the proselytizer that he is full of shit.

How can I be a better person? I realize sometimes I should be more tolerant of other people and shouldn’t insult them as I have done with Ke. Oh well, I’m not perfect (just forgiven ). How could Ke become a better person? By accepting his views about christianity as his own personal views and trying to be like jesus if that’s what he wants, but trying to recognize that christians are not more enlightened or superior to other people, they are just taking a different path and to let others walk their separate paths in peace.

No one seems to be bothered by other people accepting jesus as their mentor so long as they don’t try to cram it down other people’s throats.

[Ke_di_er]

MT,

Cramming it down other peoples throats is something that is in your own mind. I have not done that. I made a statement that a couple of you twisted into saying that I feel superior to you, I never said that. Perhaps the problem is in your perception because, as far as I know, it’s not in mine. That has nothing to do with Christianity, just your perception of what a Christian has to say.

Superior to Tigerman, never. I repect the mans debating power, he is great at what he does, I could never match that, although I will try to learn what I can.

Superior to anyone else, also a resounding No to that one too. All men are created equal, are they not, being a better person is not measured by how you match up to another person because not one of us is perfect. Instead, how do you measure up to your potential?

Ok, Tigerman, I’m up for a “What Characteristics would make someone more Christlike?” discussion, however, a little latter on, I have some things to finish now.

[Ke_di_er]

Oh yeah, before I forget.

The reason that no one attacks Tomas is because he is an ex-mormon, if he posted as a Mormon I think it would be a different story. Everyone is curious about what he can tell us after he has already walked away from it all. I wonder who would ask anything if he was still involved.

Something to think about.

[Tigerman]

[quote=“Ke di er”]Oh yeah, before I forget.

The reason that no one attacks Tomas is because he is an ex-mormon…[/quote]

Let’s get one thing strait right now. I have not “attacked” you. I have been trying to get you to make your point so that I could understand you. You have claimed now that I have twisted your statements to make it appear by implication that you believe and have stated that “Christians are better” than others. That is simply untrue. Here is the exchange between you and I from which your claim derives:

@Ke di er

I think Taiwan has a higher “slip backwards” rate than other countries… Taiwan is losing more Christians than most any other place on the planet. FACT.

To that, I inquired:

@tigerman

Are you equating “Christianity” with “better”? I’m not suggesting that you are… I simply want to understand you.

Note please that I explicitly stated that I am not suggesting anything, but asking for your clarification.

@Ke di er

if [Tomas] posted as a Mormon I think it would be a different story.

Perhaps a bit different… but not much. People don’t “attack” Tomas because he discusses his experiences in a very humble and open manner. What is there to “attack” in Tomas’ posts?

@Ke di er

Everyone is curious about what he can tell us after he has already walked away from it all. I wonder who would ask anything if he was still involved.

Of course people are curious. So what? I think quite a few people would be asking questions of Tomas even if he were still a Morman… can you really imagine Formosa holding back?

What I’m really curious about, however, are your (and other’s) notions as to what characteristics would make one more Christlike… I think that discussion has constructive potential.

[Ke_di_er]

@Mother Theresa

…I don’t think anyone on this forum would harass a person for “coming out” as a christian, just as no one harassed Tomas for coming out as a former mormon. In fact, people seem to have enjoyed the interesting perspective Tomas has shed on that church.[/quote] What riles people, though, is when members of any religion take the position of Ke, that they are superior to others because of their religion. That’s where most people draw the line and tell the proselytizer that he is full of shit.

Tigerman,
Attack wasn’t something that you suggested, ok. Harass, was somehting that MT suggested (see quote above).

@Mother Theresa

What riles people, though, is when members of any religion take the position of Ke, that they are superior to others because of their religion. That’s where most people draw the line and tell the proselytizer that he is full of shit.

Now, I don’t see anything that I have said as being an attempt to convert anyone, nor do I see any of my statements as making myself superior to another. So, those who started drawing the line, well, they were drawing the line in the wrong place.

Being superior because of religion, no way. Never said it, never implied it, perhaps some people are hyper sensitive in repect to this topic. Infact I replied from a position of being one of those that had fallen on his face, and sometimes on his rear.

My original post should be taken in context to the poster that it was in reply to. Another poster said something about falling on their face a lot, and I replied, it was one Christian making a reply to another.

Christlike
hsbc.org/singles/page_christlike.htm
or from a mormon perspective (don’t want to exclude anyone). lightplanet.com/mormons/basi … ce_eom.htm
or from a leadership perspective
cbn.org/SpiritualLife/inspiratio … leader.asp

All and all it can be wrapped up by knowing Christ more and learning to be more like him. Know His motivation (love), and His character, and how He would go about things. It was really popular a few years back to wear W.W.J.D (What would Jesus Do?) wrist bands, Christian and non-Christian alike were wearing them. I seldom ask myself that question anymore, I am sure that I, personally, would be a better person if I did.

[Ke_di_er]

And on the flip side, churchofsatan.com

[HakkaSonic]

@tigerman

So why should I even have worried about this matter? You’re making a mountain out of a mole hill, and worse, IMO, you are letting Ke di er get away without clarifying his meaning… which was my goal in the beginning… i.e., to understand his meaning.

Oh so very sorry, Tigerman, I’ll try to be a “better” person.

[Tigerman]

@tigerman

So why should I even have worried about this matter? You’re making a mountain out of a mole hill, and worse, IMO, you are letting Ke di er get away without clarifying his meaning… which was my goal in the beginning… i.e., to understand his meaning.

@HakkaSonic

Oh so very sorry, Tigerman, I’ll try to be a “better” person.

Hakkasonic,

I don’t know why you’re apologizing. And as for your sarcasm, it seems misplaced. I have never insinuated that you needed to become a “better” person. So, please don’t lay that guilt trip on me.

[Huang_Guang_Chen]

Could the good lord Hakkasonic have accidently outed himself?

HG

[HakkaSonic]

@Mother Theresa

Seriously, Hakkasonic, I don’t think anyone on this forum would harass a person for “coming out” as a christian, just as no one harassed Tomas for coming out as a former mormon. In fact, people seem to have enjoyed the interesting perspective Tomas has shed on that church. What riles people, though, is when members of any religion take the position of Ke, that they are superior to others because of their religion. That’s where most people draw the line and tell the proselytizer that he is full of shit.

MT, so it is only wrong when someone thinks they are superior because of their religion? If someone posts on and on about how stupid people in Taiwan are, that’s okay? I see stuff like that that on this forum, namely, that the poster is superior to the locals due to his or her behaviour (I’m mainly talking about posters who attribute the behavior to inborn traits and not to the environment, but now that I think about it, would also include some of the utterly condescending remarks from posters who claim they have to “teach” the Taiwanese how to be better - hmm, does that sound like missionary work?) Anyway, I got your point and I’m not saying you make such posts.

@Mother Theresa

No one seems to be bothered by other people accepting jesus as their mentor so long as they don’t try to cram it down other people’s throats.

But I think the knee-jerk reaction of many people is that Christians are going to try and cram religion down their throats (actually, I am starting to see it very much in the same light as knee-jerk negative reactions to Americans. Maybe it’s due to dominance – for many posters Christianity was the dominant religion while they were growing up, while American is the dominant power in the world. I’ll have to think about this more).

I once took a research and methodology course in a religious studies program (I chose this course instead of one from another program because I also wanted to learn more about different religions – as much as you can in four months)). The course had about 50 students - Buddhists, three Christians who had been missionaries, Catholics, Protestants, a Rabbi, Mennonites, new age practitioners, agnostics, atheists, etc. People were very tolerant of each other’s belief systems. The glaring exception was the treatment of Christianity, which seemed to be fair game for all kinds of emotional attacks – it was the reason Europe had colonized the world, leading to wars, poverty, patriarchy and other immeasurable suffering, and it is all still affecting us to this day, and people who are Christians are just perpetuating the system, etc. Not everyone reacted this way, but too many did, especially given that we were supposed to look at religions academically, rather that to get on a soapbox and chastise people. It is this type of knee-jerk reactions to Christians, from supposedly open-minded people, that I see all the time.

(Actually, now that I think about it, there was one other controversey in the course. A holocaust denier was scheduled to come to our city to give a speech and the Rabbi in our class asked everyone to sign a petition decrying the speaker. Some people signed, others didn’t, but what got everyone riled up was when the Rabbi started talking about Palestine and linking it to the holocaust denier. Imagine that, an argument starting over religion in the Middle East.)

[Tigerman]

@HakkaSonic

The course had about 50 students - Buddhists, three Christians who had been missionaries, Catholics, Protestants, a Rabbi, Mennonites…

Are you NOT classifying Catholics, Protestants and Mennonites as “Christians”?

[Tigerman]

@HakkaSonic

… it seems to me that it’s a lot tougher coming out as a Christian than as a gay on forumosa.com. You might want to see the threads re: gays on how to better market your religion. Suggesting that we are all biologically Christian may be the way to go.

I don’t know… seems that would make the need to be “born again” a pretty difficult sell, no?

[HakkaSonic]

@tigerman

[quote=“HakkaSonic”] The course had about 50 students - Buddhists, three Christians who had been missionaries, Catholics, Protestants, a Rabbi, Mennonites…

Are you NOT classifying Catholics, Protestants and Mennonites as “Christians”?[/quote]

Yes, they are Christians. I was pointing to the diversity of the Christians in the class. I’m not sure about the denomination of the missionaries.

[Mother_Theresa]

HK: “So it is only wrong when someone thinks they are superior because of their religion? If someone posts on and on about how stupid people in Taiwan are, that’s okay?”

No, that can be very offensive too. Note how most people aren’t interested in joining the discussions slamming the french, germans and muslims. But if those slinging insults, or acting superior, are doing so based on random, arbitrary personalities, prejudices, grumpiness, or whatever, its different then when they do so because they are members of a certain group.

Sure there must be millions of perfectly nice, friendly, open-minded christians who any of us would like (and you may be one of them), but unfortunately there seem to be too many christians who condemn entire groups of people as sinnners doomed to burn in hell (gays, drug users, single mothers, criminals, jews, atheists, etc.). The reason christians face a backlash is because there seem to be so many who act superior and urge others to read the bible, when they fail so miserably to follow its most basic teachings: love thy neighbor, judge not, etc.

I can only speak for myself but what I like about buddhism is that it’s all about living peacefully without harming others and acting compassionately to all other creatures. Converting others isn’t even on the list for buddhists. For so many christians, on the other hand, a big part of the religion seems to be about condemning those who are not followers and trying to convert them (if they’re not too repulsive to members of the church, such as hookers and drug addicts). And then there are all the high-profile christian hypocrites, the TV evangelist shucksters who lure in millions of suckers, claiming to have an exclusive channel to god, and then stealing millions, evading taxes, committing adultry, and whatever else they do.

You may have had different experiences, but that’s what I’ve encountered in general in my life, and I think the reason for the backlash is because others have encountered the same thing. Maybe christianity can be the way I described buddhism, but for so many it doesn’t seem to be – it seems to be a slimy, hypocritical, exclusionary sham. But to all those christians who are different, god bless you.

[Mother_Theresa]

One thing that really bugs me about christianity is the most basic belief of the whole thing, that if you accept jesus as your savior you’ll go to heaven and all others will go to hell.

What a terrible belief to base a religion on. Right from the start, the religion has condemned the bulk of humanity to burn in hell and even if the christian screws up occasionally and sins, but is savvy enough to accept jesus as his savior, wink, wink, then somehow he’ll rise up above the fray and float up to heaven. What a crock. That right there is the basis for the smug feeling of superiority that irks so many non-christians.

[HakkaSonic]

@tigerman

[quote=“HakkaSonic”]… it seems to me that it’s a lot tougher coming out as a Christian than as a gay on forumosa.com. You might want to see the threads re: gays on how to better market your religion. Suggesting that we are all biologically Christian may be the way to go.

I don’t know… seems that would make the need to be “born again” a pretty difficult sell, no? [/quote]

Why? Being born again could simply mean realizing your true nature. Anyway, the comment was made tongue in cheek.

[Screaming_Jesus]

Mother Teresa wrote:

[quote]One thing that really bugs me about christianity is the most basic belief of the whole thing, that if you accept jesus as your savior you’ll go to heaven and all others will go to hell.

What a terrible belief to base a religion on.[/quote]

The idea that Christians in general believe this, is a common misperception, based (I suspect) on the teachings of very few outspoken Protestants. The church fathers were puzzled by the question of “who is saved?” Most major denominations (including Roman Catholicism) have not offered a formal judgment on this subject, and do not seem very much inclined to do so in the future. Even the Baptists disagree about it.

Why is that? Because on one hand, they do not feel that it would be right for God to condemn people like the heroes of the Old Testament, innocent babies, or virtuous pagans to hell. On the other hand, they don’t want to make it sound like there’s no good reason for becoming a Christian rather than remaining a virtuous pagan, Jew, or whatever.