[quote=“Mer”]But 100% evil? I’m sorry, that’s laying it on a bit thick.[/quote]Agreed. But why take the chance mate?
[quote]If that makes me a bad person in your eyes,…[/quote]Not at all.
[quote]Because of my good experience with my cats Lauban and Vader, I posted an address for a guy, den, looking for a cat that is the same breed as mine, thinking it would help him out and he could decide for himself what he wanted to do. I had no idea it would strike such a nerve.[/quote]I realise that. Your post may help den finding a cat, but it’s not helping the animals in Taiwan.
Good luck with your cats, and hopefully you lucked out and they do come from a “good” breeder.
[quote=“bobepine”][quote=“Mer”]But 100% evil? I’m sorry, that’s laying it on a bit thick.[/quote]Agreed. But why take the chance mate?
[quote]If that makes me a bad person in your eyes,…[/quote]Not at all.
[quote]Because of my good experience with my cats Lauban and Vader, I posted an address for a guy, den, looking for a cat that is the same breed as mine, thinking it would help him out and he could decide for himself what he wanted to do. I had no idea it would strike such a nerve.[/quote]I realise that. Your post may help den finding a cat, but it’s not helping the animals in Taiwan.
Good luck with your cats, and hopefully you lucked out and they do come from a “good” breeder.
Cheers![/quote]
Where’s that den guy, the bastard!!! It’s all his fault!!!
My thoughts are simple. If you buy a cat/dog in a pet shop you are contributing to another animal that is created and therefore contributing to one having to be put down in a shelter.
Why not save an animal from near certain euthanasia(sp?) instead?
It’s more about an over population problem in Taiwan than about buying from a pet store that get their animals from scumbag breeders IMHO.
I think the advice to contact Sean (Straydog) or Bobpine and ask them to try and find what you are looking for in a shelter is a good idea.
The 10’s of thousands of homeless animals in Taiwan need your help.
i am still here enjoying how a simple request to help me find a shop where to buy a cat can create such a big fuss. I just wont argue with those who look at pet breeders as “evils”. as it is useless to argue with someone who’s mind is already made up about something. I am a dog breeder too back home, but i had never been somebody as those people who would like everybody here to believe all breeders are.
I just cant imagine how certain people could think that by choosing a certain breed of pet to cared for can be considered cruel to animal… i really pity them.
This may seem a bit far fetch, but it’s in fact very true. There is a group of monks operating one of the largest shelter in southern Taiwan. (Pingdong) Their name is The Loving Mothers. They do not use kennels, they have a big barn and the dogs are kept in pens. All of them get to run around the paddock in shifts, daily. Their dogs do not have names, they have numbers. Everyday, they draw anywhere from 20 to 50 numbers out of a hat, depending on how many dogs they brought in the day before. When their numbers are drawn, it’s not because they won something.
And den, thanks but we do not need your pity. The animals do. No one said that choosing a specific pet is cruel. We are saying that it is patronising a very shady and often cruel trade. Big difference, I think that’s very clear. No need to read between the lines here. It’s black and white.
[quote=“Lo Bo To”]Are all breeders in Taiwan scum?
Maybe, maybe not.
My thoughts are simple. If you buy a cat/dog in a pet shop you are contributing to another animal that is created and therefore contributing to one having to be put down in a shelter.
Why not save an animal from near certain euthanasia(sp?) instead?
It’s more about an over population problem in Taiwan than about buying from a pet store that get their animals from scumbag breeders IMHO.
I think the advice to contact Sean (Straydog) or Bobpine and ask them to try and find what you are looking for in a shelter is a good idea.
The 10’s of thousands of homeless animals in Taiwan need your help.[/quote]
Great logic, great post. Couldn’t have said it better myself.
[quote=“den”]… it is useless to argue with someone who’s mind is already made up about something. [/quote] That’s true except the opinions you read in this thread are not really opinions. Well, they are opinions but they are inspired by such solid facts that they become facts more so than just opinions. It’s not really a matter of having our minds already made up as much as a matter of keeping our eyes open to certain well-known facts and having compassion for our furry friends.
I don’t look at this thread as an argument. It’s a discussion. A bit of a shock to you, I can understand that because you seem to be unaware of important information relating to animals in Taiwan. Hopefully this helps you think this through.
I don’t think you can deny that breeders in Taiwan are questionable. Like Sandman said, the facts are indefensible. I don’t think you can deny the overwhelming amount of strays in Taiwan either. Unless you are blind of course. Take a walk in you neighbourhood and chance are you don’t have enough fingers to count the strays on a three city block radius. And I don’t think you can deny the cultural elements that also do contribute to the stray problem in Taiwan.
Now if you read my post, I hope you can understand that I’m merely summarizing facts, not opinions. This said, I don’t think you can deny that buying an animal from a pet shop, be it a good one or a bad one is not contributing to the problem as opposed to being a part of the solution.
Your post on the other hand; your claim that you feel pity for some of us who care for animals is strictly an opinion, one that is denying solid facts.
So yes, I agree. If you are going to ignore a mountain of factual information, then this discussion is indeed useless.
In the UK, which has a reputation for loving animals (with lots of exceptions), it is impossible to buy anything bigger than a guinea pig in a shop. In Taiwan, which has a reputation for animal cruelty, you can buy anything in a pet shop. I do not believe the connection between cruelty and availibilty is a coincidence.
When I had been only here a month, there was no Forumosa, no Animals Taiwan, no Bobepine to let me know what was going on, I was naive enough to buy a cat from a pet shop, he had skin infections and other conditions since the day we got him. He died in my arms at the age of three.
There’s a pet shop near me that has had the same rabbit in the window for years. I wish I knew how to help it…
i just couldnt understand why you hate breeders here in taiwan so much, may be i dont know how they manage their trade… but i think they treat those animals better than those people who leave their pets astray for they needed a better looking and a healtier animal for their trade. why not concentrate on how to penalized or punished those irresponsible pet owners instead. I think there is more of them out there than those breeders you considered evil.
Bobepine, perhaps its time you linked den to those pictures of the breeding place you tried to close. Or the one up here that Stray Dog managed to get pics of. You’re right den, you appear to be unaware of how they manage their trade. However, there are people posting here who ARE aware and have first-hand knowledge of what goes on.
You think they treat the animals better than those who abansdon their pets? You think they don’t KNOW that many of their animals will be abandoned? Yet it’s still OK for them to continue breeding and selling indiscriminately? Its just a business, right? What happens after I sell them? “Not my problem, mate.”
Stray Dog, how about those pics you got of the dozens of Maltese puppies in cages, abandoned in an unlit metal warehouse when the breeders thought the authorities were getting too close, dying in a soup of their own urine and feces?
Where do you suppose those breeders are now? I’ll tell you. They’ve simply set up elsewhere, further away from prying eyes.
I say again. Your position is indefensible. As long as this kind of thing goes on, your position is indefensible.
This thread reminds me of my brother and the pure bred dogs he’s gotten in the US. I’m not into purebreeds, but I don’t have a problem with people who get them from reputable breeders. Whenever my brother has gotten a new dog, he’s always gone straight to the breeder. That is just how it is done in the US. Even though the dogs in the shops are usually from breeders that comply with AKC guidelines, these are often the runts of the litter that the breeder couldn’t sell himself. In fact, the people I know back in the US who are into purebreds all went straight to the breeder. You can find out so much about the dog or cat if you see him at the breeder’s. You can see the environment in which he was bred, you can meet his parents, you can meet the humans who have looked after him and you can see how he interacts with other animals. You won’t be able to find out about every potential physical or mental problem that the dog may have in the future, but you can find out so much more than what you would have learned by getting the animal at a pet store. You can also have a look at the breeder’s paperwork to make sure all the certs are in order and that inbreeding has been kept at an acceptable level.
I’m not aware of any breeder in Taiwan that would allow a buyer to scrutinize them so closely. Reputable breeders in N. America will usually let anybody in for a look around any day of the week without appointment. If anybody would like to get a purebred animal in Taiwan, then I suggest that they try to find a breeder who isn’t shy about scrutiny from the buyer. If you really want an animal that hasn’t come to you at the expense of a lot of other dead animals and an animal that will be reasonably healthy, then skip the shop and go straight to the breeders. You may find a good one and prove me wrong, but my bet is that if you were to actually try to shop around at different breeders, you will likely be back here in a short time agreeing with those of use who are against buying purebreds in Taiwan.
I bred and trained spaniels with my father in another lifetime and in more than a decade, we didn’t sell a single animal to a pet shop. It simply didn’t occur to us. And we had verified documentation on sire and dam going back (I think) seven generations. This was required by law and anyway, nobody would even think of buying an animal that didn’t have such documents. What kind of genealogy record did you get with your purebred cats, Mer?
I never claimed my cats were purebred. I know what one supposedly is, the Scottish Fold. The other is a long-hair. I paid very little for them. I’m not interested in owning pure-breds. That was never my intention in getting a couple of cats in the first place. I simply picked a couple of cats that I liked at the store with my wife.
And as I said before, you’re all entitled to think whatever you want of our decision. Our cats are happy and healthy, and we love them dearly.
And again, if I was to get a third, I would definitely consider adoption from one of the various people/organizations you have mentioned.
[quote=“den”] why not concentrate on how to penalized or punished those irresponsible pet owners instead.[/quote] We do that too, we do both. Read [url=http://tw.forumosa.com/t/please-report-animal-abuse-taipei/19965/1 tread[/url] to find out. One lady mentioned in that thread will have to pay a fine for mistreating her dogs. The breeders however…They more often then not get away with it too. :s
I never claimed my cats were purebred. I know what one supposedly is, the Scottish Fold. The other is a long-hair. I paid very little for them. I’m not interested in owning pure-breds. That was never my intention in getting a couple of cats in the first place. I simply picked a couple of cats that I liked at the store with my wife.[/quote]
The main purpose in getting documentation on geneology and seeing the maths about the inbreeding coefficient isn’t really to make sure they are purebreds. The purebred part of breeding, that is producing pups or kittens that are true to type, is the relatively easy part. If you were to buy a golden retriever in the US, the main reason you would want to see all the AKC sort of documentation would not be to make sure it is purebred, but instead to make sure that the animal isn’t too inbred. It is nearly unheard of for a “purebred” dog sold buy a breeder to show a bunch of traits that aren’t true to type as the animal grows up. The more common problem, even for reputable breeders, is for the animal to develop physical and mental health problems like the ones I described in an earlier post.
That’s a really good question if you ask me. I would also like to know. Mer, you mentioned that your cats are not pure breed, but you did write “I got an all black three years old Scottish Fold.”
Did you mean Scottish Fold mixed? Was it sold to you as a pure breed or did the shop tell you that the cat wasn’t a pure breed? Perhaps the cheap price was a give away. Did you get any papers with your cat?
I’m not stressing the question to nit pick. I’m asking because of stories the like of what Big Fluffy Matthew posted. Having his cat die in his arms at three years old. Not to mention the poor thing was sick the whole time. BFM even admits that he was somewhat naive and uninformed when he first came to Taiwan. Perhaps den is in the same position now.
In any case, it sure would be nice to know if you got papers or not with you Scottish Fold, Mer. Just to show that paying thousands of dollars for a potentially inbred cat seems like a big chance to take. No offence intended, I’m sure that just like BFM, you had humane intentions, not cruelty in mind when you acquired an animal from a pet shop.
The thing is, people need to know about this kind of thing, for the animals sake.
Yeah? Where is that bastard? 