If I were one of the michaels, I would’ve smacked the PM. Their martyrdom was in vain.
That’s not how Kovrig reacted at all.
Remember those guys were in detention with (I recall) no internet and almost no contact with the outside world. One of the Michaels (I think again it was Kovrig) reportedly reacted with surprise quite late in his detention when a Canadian diplomat (finally allowed to see him) told him there was a pandemic!
Guy
Caused by China.
Yes. Not exactly the funnest kid in the playground. More like one you’d kinda want to stay the hell away from.
Guy
Yes, arresting Meng was stupid. Other than that, what do you suggest Trudeau should have done? Send a special elite team of attack-beavers into China?
The fact that Trudeau and the whole diplomatic team didn’t blink is a victory of sorts. As the rise of multilateral responses oppposing arbitrary detentions to steer state-to-state relations (aka hostage diplomacy). China’s not going away, and Canada has way better odds when it’s not going at it alone.
Declaration Against Arbitrary Detention in State-to-State Relations
Date Modified: 2021-02-12
Summary
The arbitrary arrest or detention of foreign nationals to compel action or to exercise leverage over a foreign government is contrary to international law, undermines international relations, and has a negative impact on foreign nationals traveling, working and living abroad. Foreign nationals abroad are susceptible to arbitrary arrest and detention or sentencing by governments seeking to compel action from other States. The purpose of this Declaration is to enhance international cooperation and end the practice of arbitrary arrest, detention or sentencing to exercise leverage over foreign governments.
Recognising a pressing need for an international response to the prevalence of these practices, and guided by international law and the principles of the Charter of the United Nations:
- We reaffirm that arbitrary arrests and detentions are contrary to international human rights law and instruments, including the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and other international and regional human rights instruments;
- We express grave concern about the use of arbitrary arrest or detention by States to exercise leverage over foreign governments, contrary to international law;
- We are deeply concerned that arbitrary arrest, detention, or sentencing to exercise leverage over foreign governments undermines the development of friendly relations and cooperation between States, international travel, trade and commerce, and the obligation to settle international disputes by peaceful means;
- We are alarmed by the abuse of State authority, including judicial authority, to arbitrarily arrest, detain or sentence individuals to exercise leverage over foreign governments. We call on States to respect their obligations related to a fair and public hearing by a competent, independent and impartial tribunal;
- We urge all States to refrain from arbitrary arrest, detention, or sentencing to exercise leverage over foreign governments in the context of State-to-State relations;
- We reaffirm the fundamental importance of the rule of law, independence of the judiciary, respect for human rights, and respect for the obligation to provide consular access in accordance with international law, including the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations and other applicable international instruments;
- We call upon States to take concrete steps to prevent and put an end to harsh conditions in detention, denial of access to counsel, and torture or other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment of individuals arbitrarily arrested, detained or sentenced to exercise leverage over foreign governments. We reaffirm the urgent need to provide these individuals with an effective remedy consistent with international human rights law, and call for their immediate release;
- We stand in solidarity with States whose nationals* have been arbitrarily arrested, detained or sentenced by other States seeking to exercise leverage over them and acknowledge the need to work collaboratively to address this issue of mutual concern at the international level.
This Declaration remains open to endorsement.
(*) Including dual nationals in accordance with endorsing countries’ laws on nationality.
Source: Declaration Against Arbitrary Detention in State-to-State Relations
Guy
Recall ambassador?
Cut diplomatic relations?
Declare Canadian passports invalid for travel to the People’s Republic of China?
Recognise Taiwan?
Join AUKUS?
Lobby for Taiwan?
Restrict and Tariff Chinese imports?
Cancel crown corporations’ contracts with Chinese SoEs?
Nationalise Chinese ownership of Canadian resources?
Give companies tax breaks and subsidies to leave China for other countries?
Need I continue? We have so much leverage we don’t use.
1 Like
Recall ambassador: Like France did to Australia? Take that!
Cut diplomatic relations: ditto
Declare Canadian passports invalid for PRC: Hurts Canada more than China
Recognise Taiwan: A good idea, but no effect if done alone
Join AUKUS: Other than the fact we haven’t bee invited, it is probably a good idea, though last time we tried to buy SSNs…
Lobby for Taiwan: How? Where?
Restict and Tariff Canadian imports: And when China does the same?
Cancel crown corporations’ contract with Chinese SoEs: ditto
Nationalise Chinese ownership of Canadian resources: with compensation, of course, or do you advocate theft? And again, China can do the same.
Give companies tax breaks and subsidies to leave China: Interesting idea- pay companies to set up elsewhere to compete with Canada.
Other than the fact that these ideas will hurt Canada as much as China, they also would do nothing to free the two Michaels, and probably seal their fate.
Recognising Taiwan is a good one, but not exactly likely to get China to acquiesce to anything.
What can you expect from a second rate drama teacher? And yet, Canadians voted to keep him in, +4 seats to boot, albeit in a minority overall, thanks to the cum-sponge suburban vote in the Toronto burbs.
I cry for my beloved country. 
We have celibate right-wing pseudo-Ram-truck-driving reactionaries such as Kenney on the Right and fluff on the Left such as Golden Boy. Makes me miss the days of leaders such as Broadbent (NDP), Stanfield (PC), hell even electorate losers such as the erudite and successful-outside-of-Canada Iggy (Lib).
Problem is that Canadians don’t choose the best leaders. They like the populist Tim Hortons kind of politicos or movie star fluff. In some ways, they get what they deserve LOL.
And when Canada has taken all these steps to defy China, and the US drops the charges?
For one thing, hostages are exactly that. Like the hostages in Teheran- could America have flattened Iran? Obviously- at the cost of the hostages’ lives. Could Canada have taken tougher steps with China? Yes, if you don’t give a shit about what happens to the two Michaels, which I suspect all these people talking tough with other people’s lives actually don’t. Sometimes you you have to shrug your shoulders and sat “sorry, you’re the price we’re willing to pay”, but don’t try to play Rambo on the Internet and pretend there’s an easy solution if we just act like tough guys.
Second, compared to China, Canada is pretty small and weak. We can add our pebble to the avalanche, but setting it off? Not likely.
While western countries are often mature and work things out using dialogue.
The Chinese Communist Party sees any defiance as the worst thing in the world.
How so?
Anywhere possible, the UN, ISO, etc…
GOOD! It may require a bit of pain but… decoupling is better long run.
China DOES do the same already.
Canada’s not competing in many markets. But, like a buyer choosing between grocery stores, we shouldn’t buy from those that insult and actively hurt us.
I have no experience in shoemaking, why would I try to make my own shoes?
So if one shoemaker insults me, kidnaps my family. Why would I buy from him? Same with China. China gives TERRIBLE customer service. The ultimate leverage is we take our business elsewhere.
No they didn’t, The system gave it to trudeau.
Do you have to be so crude every time?
1 Like
Might just be Canadians feeling nationalistic over their cinematic creation.
The novel “First Blood” was written by David Morrell, a Canadian and the movie was filmed in Hope, BC, Canada.
Which highly entertains me. I am sure a lot of Canadian liberals thoroughly complained about the electoral college in the US in 2016, etc. But in Canada, they have no problems that the Cons got the majority vote; but lost because of the allocation of seats/voting patterns in Ontario and Quebec.
1 Like
You and I know every time is an uber-exaggeration and such language is tame compared to a lot that is discussed on these forums. But your feign of outrage is noted. 
I’m not outraged. I just looked at that and was like…eww…
Popiular vote
Conservatives 33.7%
Liberals 32.6%
NDP 17.8%
BQ 7.6%
PPC 5.0%
Green 2.3%
So let’s have some wheeling and dealing like in Germany right now to see who makes up the government. Or, the G-G could call on the Conservatves to form a government, being the party with the most votes, and they could rule until a vote of confidence. Maybe they could give enough to the NDP to get their support (Singh personally hates Trudeau, and the Dippers have the perpetual dream of emulating the British Labour Party and replacing the Liberals as the Opposition)
Or do you mean “the Conservatives should rule even though the majority of Canadians oppose them” ?
Not just the Dippers – it was Harper’s dream too. To have a two-party system where voters are given clear right and left visions, not the dishonest pragmatism of the Libs…the ultimate chameleons.
To be fair this does kind of represent a strand of Canada doesn’t it.
Guy
It certainly represents the policy of the Liberal Party for about the last century. Squat in the middle and shift left and right as the polls dictate.