No it’s not, that’s ridiculous.
I’m not being biased, because my perspective is irrelevant to my argument, which I based on the joy I believe they will derive from their admittedly limited existence (which is based on objective observations of them).
Besides those caveats, I understand your viewpoint, and I hope you get mine!
I do get yours. I am more talking about the general global argument on ethics, not trying to call you out. This debate has gone on for ages and probably there will be no agreement from either side. But I am saying if we look at the species unbiased and what they are built for, we can better build their ecosystem and be able to manipulate behaviour behaviour better.
I think it is erroneous for people to believe they can buy toys and spoil them more and that will somehow tucker the wild solitary predator out of them. It is a bit human centric in my opinion. but if we look at their actual natural behaviour and “teach” them, real results are often pretty quick. But in the end some individuals never change. Like our own species, they are unique individuals with their own minds, wants, loves, hates etc. So it’s also erroneous of those that think “it’s a cat” as if they are all like as described by biologists.
end of the day, does he want to have the cat stop destroying his stuff or not? probably a pragmatic approach rather than a human approach is more effective 
PS. loads of farmers of meat use this argument, especially with cattle in my experience. They say we gave them life etc, without having any regard to the actual quality of life for the brain in the ankmals head. they think they give them food, places to sleep, they dont beat them etc and they are saints for making lives. Aside from the fact we eat them, the argument is very similar to that of the pet trades’. It is the precise reason I quit the entire animal husbandry arena, it is pretty gruesome.
I see. Raising them to eat them isn’t quite the same as raising them to let them sit on your lap, but I see the argument.
Ya, they are 2 very different industries. but on the production side of both, the same excuse is used to justify similar, but different, mistreatment.
I am not saying cat people are intentionally hurting cats. moreso that many people treat them like a thing, not a living being with emotions. Thus we see the pet industry with cages animals of all kinds. I feel it is objectively wrong. But I agree an apartment is a lot nicer than a 2 foot cage. I just think keeping animals that roam km a day is hard to justify living in a room. never mind fish, birds, rodents, dogs etc. Imagine a horse in a garage, but it gets love.
For those truly giving their cats space and proper care, I am not talking about you. But you would certainly be the minority IMO.
I do not think people keeping cats in small apartments are doing a bad thing, even if those cats are not a “rescue”. Sometimes the needs of the human may outweigh the need of the cat. It is easy to make up for that by giving the cats love and care that they might otherwise not have received. This is only a small wrong on the scale of wrongness. Most people that keep animals love those animals and it is hard to fault that.
These days even less the case.
Animals used in factory farms are very much dumbed down varieties compared to those found in the farm yard or wild.
What if you raised cats for milk? Let’s call it “meowk”.
That’s probably how British people pronounce milk.
“Oi mate, could you pass that bo-el of meowk?”
Laser pointer can get a cat going, but since it can’t be caught, your cat will get frustrated really quickly, so you need to replace laser pointer with a cat toy once you get your cat going.
It’s less about what toy to place with, and more about how you play with your cat. Most cats likes their prey to hide and sneak about, and when the prey has been spotted, it would try to either try to run away really quickly, or take off to avoid capture. Some cats likes to jump, some don’t. Some cats likes their prey to move really quickly back and forth, some just like their prey to stay still in hiding and occasionally wiggle. You just have to get to know what your cat likes.
Less about people doing bad, more about just not providing adequate environments. On the flip side, many parents dont do that for their children, but they are not inherently bad.
the bold part of your quote is what I am getting at. ifthatcis the case, we are being selfish keeping pets. Rescues and similar situations being the exception. Less of a judgement, more of a realistic observation. I think we can do better when we understand the whole picture, not just “our picture”.
I only mention this about pets because they have no choice and are completely sentient beings with all the emotions we have scrambled into their own unique way. Frankly, I care less about people take care of cars or their house. But we (should) have massive responsibilities if taking care of other life forms.
vegetarian species for milk > Carnivore species for milk (for human consumption) 
Sure, fair enough. Many things we do to animals are for our convenience or selfish needs. I do not fault your observation. I think the examples we have mentioned are the least of them. There are much worse things, I am sure you will agree.
I do agree. until people try to story tell their way out of what they are doing. Much worse, like factory farms, they are killing animals. Many have no fucks given policy, and that is horrible. But as long as they dont lie and pretend they are giving them life they otherwise wouldnt have type of fantasy, we cant fault them for not being honest.
Pet industry is different in that sense. lots of people justifying things to fit their own egotistical narrative. I have issues with people doing that. Not saying anyone here is doing that, not saying they arent. Not really my point. just that we should be honest about what we are doing. only after that can we improve an otherwise fairly cruel industry (i feel strongly the industry is more cruel than respectful by far). Aside from cruelty, understanding what a cat truly is (it is not the fluffy love doll many like to pretend they are ) can we start adjusting for behaviour while living within walls. Otherwise i think it is just a fun look how cute this sneaky cat is type of thing. aka. not wanting real answers or proper corrections.
Arguably same for most pets, not just cats. just that cats tend to be the ones that are the most psychotic and get free range of a house/area, so they tend to be more destructive than say a fish or a bird.
Note, i love cats. dont get me wrong That’s why i care about them being treated properly.
I respect where you are coming from, but maybe a softer approach would be more effective. Most people that have cats do not realize they may in some form or other be contributing to the continuation of cat misery in the world, quite the opposite. You can probably make people into allies if you help build their understanding.
A greater harm is perhaps the breeding of more cats that are going to end up on the street. What are your thoughts on how to prevent that?
Indeed, great points. In my opinion the only practical way forward is only allow rescues. It is my.opiniin that most people are not in a situation to actually provide adequate environments for the species. I understand they play with themand are happy sometimes. But I am coming from the angle of the pet, not the person. My suggestion would be people research to the extreme. If someone wants to keep a super rare exotic species, they usually research to death before shelling out the cash. for proper care. this isnt the norm for cats, dogs, birds, fish etc that are found in pet stores.
I have the same belief for children. if one cannot properly care for a child, please dont have one. But rescues are different (adoption). better circumstances out of love in hardship. Same.with animals. But intentional breeding for future mistreatment is something to be taken more seriously.
I suppose my only point is for people that claim to love a pet, self reflect and be real with themself if they are loving the pet for the per or themselves.
Ithink cats and dogs should not be pets, based on the lack of ability to provide adequate housing environments. based on size and activity. much like aquariums shouldnt keep great white sharks. it just isnt right. but cats and dogs are harder and dont die, so we trick ourselves into thinking we are doing good.
I love your point, with my.friends I play that narrative as well. but online, just unbias opinions for others to think about. everyone has the right to agree or disagree, but I think cat environment parameters based on their species is fairly well understood. it is better coming from that angle in how to interpret their behaviours and psychology rather than the pet store, tv, pet books which are largely nonsense talking about human centric points
End of the day, a pet owner needs to think.
Do I care more about my ego or the quality of life of the animal I have confined? I think this is an ideal way to start, then make decisions on keeping pets.
Recycled pasta jar or something like that. Screw the lid underneath a shelf in your workshop. 2 screws so the lid doesn’t twist when you’re putting the jar on. Preferably where you can see it. Put the things your customer gave you into the glass jar and twist it shut with the lid.
my cat basically plays with the other cat (who don’t seem to want to play, or do much except sleep all day). Except this cat seems to not sleep much and has a TON OF ENERGY that even playing with the other cat is not enough. Might give the toy rat thing a try…
k etamine