Caucasian teachers only.....?

Work Teaching English in Taiwan
41

Fine I understand. But your argument seems to be that racial discrimination is somehow alright in Taiwan, or is at least capable of being rationalized away, because it is carried out by Taiwanese in their own country[/quote]

Wrong! Totally wrong! :fume: It really pisses me off when people try to put words in my mouth. Where do I say it’s ok? Where?! I only say the parents are to blame and not the schools. As a matter of fact, I state overtly that I do not support discrimination. Do not try to portray me as some kind of closet KKK member. Don’t go there with that kind of slander crap. That isn’t what I said at all. Gawd, and I even added a note for people to read carefully in my last post.

I also say we have little choice other than to live with it as we are foreigners here and not citizens with voting rights. I also say comparisons between conditions here and America do not hold up as racism in America involved a country denying its own citizens civil rights. English schools here discriminating against non-white westerners is a totally different thing because we do not have rights as citizens here in the first place. 1) we are not citizens 2) therefore any notions such as equal rights do not apply to us here. It is a very different topic altogether to talk about should or ought to… My actual position in a nutshell: THE PROBLEM OF ENGLISH SCHOOL DISCRIMINATORY HIRING PRACTICES ARISES FROM THIS SOCIETY’S ATTITUDES AND BELIEFS CONCERNING WESTERNERS (I DO NOT SUPPORT THESE IGNORANT BELIEFS). IT HAS BEEN MY EXPERIENCE THAT MANY SCHOOLS WOULD LOVE TO HIRE NON-WHITES, BUT ARE UNABLE TO DO SO DUE TO THE PREVAILING BELIEFS OF THEIR CUSTOMER BASE AND COMPETITIVE PRESSURES. WE ARE NOT MEMBERS OF THIS SOCIETY AND, AND AS OUTSIDERS IN THE POLITICAL AS WELL AS CULTURAL SENSE, ARE LARGELY POWERLESS TO CHANGE THIS UNFORTUNATE SITUATION. DISCRIMINATORY HIRING PRACTICES ARE A FACT OF LIFE HERE. I DO NOT LIKE THIS SITUATION MYSELF, HOWEVER I BEAR WITH IT. I CAN UNDERSTAND HOW OTHERS CANNOT. HOWEVER, THE ONLY OPTION IS TO LEAVE THIS PLACE AS WE CANNOT CHANGE THE REALITIES IN A COUNTRY IN WHICH WE ARE ONLY GUESTS, NOT CITIZENS WITH ANY VOICE.

Once again, please do not portray me as someone who likes the hiring discrimination, or even as someone who thinks it’s “ok.” That isn’t what I’ve said at all.

I do apologize for the harsh tone of this post. I feel my opinions have been misinterpreted and beliefs have been falsely attributed to me. This is a sensitive topic. Please be careful in how you quote me/ respond to me.

42

Fine I understand. But your argument seems to be that racial discrimination is somehow alright in Taiwan, or is at least capable of being rationalised away, because it is carried out by Taiwanese in their own country[/quote]

Wrong! Totally wrong! :fume: It really pisses me off when people try to put words in my mouth. Where do I say it’s ok? Where?! I only say the parents are to blame and not the schools. As a matter of fact, I state overtly that I do not support discrimination. Do not try to portray me as some kind of closet kkk member. Don’t go there with that kind of slander crap. That isn’t what I said at all. Gawd, and I even added a note for people to read carefully in my last post.

I also say we have little choice other than to live with it as we are foreigners here and not citizens with voting rights. I also say comparisons between conditions here and America do not hold up as racism in America involved a country denying its own citizens civil rights. English schools here discriminating against non-white westerners is a totally different thing because we do not have rights as citizens here in the first place. 1) we are not citizens 2) therefore any notions such as equal rights do not apply to us here. It is a very different topic altogether to talk about should or ought to… My actual position in a nutshell: THE PROBLEM OF English SCHOOL DISCRIMINATORY HIRING PRACTICES ARISES FROM THIS SOCIETY’S ATTITUDES AND BELIEFS CONCERNING WESTERNERS (I do NOT SUPPORT THESE IGNORANT BELIEFS). IT HAS BEEN MY EXPERIENCE THAT MANY SCHOOLS WOULD LOVE TO HIRE NON-WHITES, BUT ARE UNABLE TO DO SO DUE TO THE PREVAILING BELIEFS OF THEIR CUSTOMER BASE AND COMPETITIVE PRESSURES. WE ARE NOT MEMBERS OF THIS SOCIETY AND, AND AS OUTSIDERS IN THE POLITICAL AS WELL AS CULTURAL SENSE, ARE LARGELY POWERLESS TO CHANGE THIS UNFORTUNATE SITUATION. DISCRIMINATORY HIRING PRACTICES ARE A FACT OF LIFE HERE. I do NOT LIKE THIS SITUATION MYSELF, HOWEVER I BEAR WITH IT. I can UNDERSTAND HOW OTHERS CANNOT. HOWEVER, THE ONLY OPTION IS TO LEAVE THIS PLACE AS WE CANNOT CHANGE THE REALITIES IN A COUNTRY IN WHICH WE ARE ONLY GUESTS, NOT CITIZENS WITH ANY VOICE.

Once again, please do not portray me as someone who likes the hiring discrimination, or even as someone who thinks it’s “ok.” That isn’t what I’ve said at all.[/quote]
Unfortunately TS, —“HOWEVER, THE ONLY OPTION IS TO LEAVE THIS PLACE AS WE CANNOT CHANGE THE REALITIES IN A COUNTRY IN WHICH WE ARE ONLY GUESTS, NOT CITIZENS WITH ANY VOICE” is the statement that has lumped you in with me and anyone else that isn’t actively expressing a desire to ‘help’ Taiwan become ‘civilized.’ Don’t take it personally, I don’t. :unamused:

43

Me, too. I think the schools often key on what a few parents say, or just simply assume, often wrongly, that they know what the parents are thinking.

For example, at one of my schools, I got to observe the irony of the school regularly criticizing a CBC teacher (went with his parents to live in the U.S. when he was three) who was very popular with parents, as shown by all the parents who asked him to tutor their kids.

That school is no longer in business, but the teacher is still teaching. I think some of these outfits do little more than shoot themselves in the foot until they run out of bullets, foot, or both.

44

Fine I understand. But your argument seems to be that racial discrimination is somehow alright in Taiwan, or is at least capable of being rationalized away, because it is carried out by Taiwanese in their own country[/quote]

Wrong! Totally wrong! :fume: It really pisses me off when people try to put words in my mouth. Where do I say it’s ok? Where?! I only say the parents are to blame and not the schools. As a matter of fact, I state overtly that I do not support discrimination. Do not try to portray me as some kind of closet KKK member. Don’t go there with that kind of slander crap. That isn’t what I said at all. Gawd, and I even added a note for people to read carefully in my last post.

I also say we have little choice other than to live with it as we are foreigners here and not citizens with voting rights. I also say comparisons between conditions here and America do not hold up as racism in America involved a country denying its own citizens civil rights. [/quote]

So what does that mean ? (I am fully aware you do not support racism. )

In this sentence are you differentiating between a kind of racism displayed by citizens of a country to other citizens of the same country, and a kind of racism which is displayed by citizens of one country against another country ?

The term “citizen” comes up a lot in your posts. How is it important whether the object of one’s racism shares one’s nationality ? Does that make it a more, or less, racist ?

45

I’m enjoying reading all points of view but if you have a good native speaking teacher regardless of race you should give them a chance and educate the parents.

My wife, a Taiwanese, honestly tells me that some people just never gave much thought about discrimination or even putting yourself in an other person’s shoes. Things like driving manner even social politeness (excuse me) , customer service and other things were almost non-existent when I first came here. The rule was (Your family is number 1)

Now for those people who say it’s thier country and we have no right to change it.

Well, Citizenship for children of foreign fathers We Changed That!
(Previously children of foreign fathers were given the boot and kicked out of the country even if the father disappeared!)

Right for foreign or mixed children to attend public schools -we pay taxes too you know… We changed that too.

Freedom of employment for foreign spouses and permanent residents. Changed.

But to get back to the subject. If FBC who speaks excellent English would be a great asset to a school. It’s up to the school to market this to the parents.

PS: There is a difference to not discriminating and liking. I only like people into Star Trek or Doctor Who. But I will tolerate others.

46

Only Star Trek & Doctor Who?

What about Thunderbirds, UFO, and the many other fine British series programs. My other favourite is Steptoe & Son…

47

“What do you mean by that?”

I was pointing out the unsuitability your comparison between America’s treatment of its own citizens and Taiwan’s (or at least, the English school’s) treatment of a certain class of foreign English teachers. In one case, the case of America, equal opportunity is a right for its citizens; in the other, talk of “rights” in employment terms (or any other terms) is not relevant. Employment and opportunity here is a privilege that is granted to those select few foreigners who are permitted, by the ROC government, to live here. Citizenship is a key term here. I think what happened in America with its minorities is much worse than what is happening here with nonwhite teachers. America denied rights to its own citizens; rights they were guaranteed. We, as foreigners, do not have a RIGHT to be here. We have been granted the privilege of residing here. Discrimination occurs all the time not only here, but in every country with regards to citizens versus non-citizens. We are foreigners here, therefore a comparison between this condition and one which involved a country and its own citizens is necessarily invalid.

Racism? Of course its racism. I am not in denial of that. That was never what I was debating. Wrong? Of course it’s wrong. Once again, that is not what I am debating.

Coming back to citizenship: In my ideal world, there would be no political boundaries. But the fact is they do exist. Rights you enjoy as a citizen of your own country are not extended to those who are not citizens. Don’t believe me? Then consider Guantanamo…

I repeat, once more, the only purpose of my original post. 1.The schools’ RACIST and DISCRIMINATORY hiring policies are there because the schools’ client base generally demands white teachers, not because the schools themselves generally agree with them. 2. We, as foreigners here, do not have many options with regard to this phenomenon.

Education? Yes. Absolutely. I try to educate as many people as I can about the real west, equality, and how my girlfriend–the FBC(remember)-- makes an excellent teacher.

Still there are certain realities I have come to accept about life here. 1. I am not a citizen and that does have implications concerning my life and freedoms here. 2. There are things that go on here that are objectionable to my western sense of justice. 3. These problems need to be solved by ROC citizens. 4. I need to learn to accept Taiwan as it is.

This is my final comment on this issue. It’s been a blast.

48

I’m busy right now but had to respond.

You wrote that it was worse in America because they denied rights to their own citizens.

Hello? Only a year or so ago, they just deleted your ethnic background from your Taiwanese citizen’s Id card. (This card has to be presented for almost every service and product you’d like to buy or every job you’d like to apply for).

Second, ask any average Taiwanese what he thinks about aboriginals. You may get a negative first impression. I know they face some discrimination Han also discriminate against Taiwanese and visa versa.

There is also employment discrimination with against people with disabilities regardless if it does or doesn’t affect his or her job. Again, things are getting better. And if you get serious with your girlfriend, you will end up working to change things too.

(
There is a thing called “reciprocity.” If my Taiwanese friends (citizen or not) are enjoying certain rights in America. Taiwan has to give these same rights to us.

There are plenty of Taiwan interest groups in America run by Taiwanese. I’m a member of them too.

Let your FBC girlfriend (you didn’t mention her before) go out and get the best job she can. Sell Sell Sell… It’s all about image.

There are legeslaters in government dedicated to representing overseas Chinese. Your girlfriend should complain to them. They are considered sort of but not quite Taiwanese citizens (I’m not sure how that works, but they have some voice.)

PS: Never got to see Thunderbirds, if you can sing the Spam and Lumberjack songs or have any tapes with Felicity Kendall in it, I’ll be your buddy. (We Americans donated good money to see British TV on our public TV stations.

49

Since when did “Taiwanese” (unless you’re referring to aborigines, who are the true “Taiwanese” - or the “little black dwarves” that Annette Lu says were the original inhabitants of Taiwan) stop being Han? Perhaps you meant to say discrimination between those Han Chinese in Taiwan prior to 1949 and those who arrived with the KMT armies in 1949.

50

[quote]There is a thing called “reciprocity.” If my Taiwanese friends (citizen or not) are enjoying certain rights in America. Taiwan has to give these same rights to us.
[/quote]
And why would that be?

51

Using this logic, I suppose that you would say that the segregationist laws passed by the Southern states shortly after the US Civil War were ‘OK’ as was the Supreme Court decision in Plessy v. Ferguson that upheld the constitutionality of such laws. I mean, as long as the law says it’s ‘OK,’ then it’s ‘OK,’ correct? :idunno:

Legality and morality are not one in the same.

52

Using this logic, I suppose that you would say that the segregationist laws passed by the Southern states shortly after the US Civil War were ‘OK’ as was the Supreme Court decision in Plessy v. Ferguson that upheld the constitutionality of such laws. I mean, as long as the law says it’s ‘OK,’ then it’s ‘OK,’ correct? :idunno:

Legality and morality are not one in the same.[/quote]
And your concept of what is moral is not the same as mine…so what’s your point? Morality in one country is not something that can be defined by citizens of another country. Nor is legality. In Muslim countries, at least most I think, it is legal (and morally acceptable) to have more than one wife - in most western countries this is not legal (or morally acceptable to most people)
As for rehashing the segregationist laws, there is no need to go back and try to analyze the past in the context of modern life. Neither you nor I were alive then (I am assuming) and what has formed your moral standards today MIGHT NOT have been the same a hundred years ago – no matter how much you protest this point, you just really don’t know.
People seem to get upset that I ‘adjust’ to the environment I am in, well that is my choice.
If you don’t like the situation in Taiwan then work to change it, but be aware that according to the law you don’t have the RIGHT to do this. And if they deport you, well you can claim martyrdom for your efforts, if you don’t get deported then you can claim credit for making the lives of some foreigners more comfortable in Taiwan. :wink:
Although Taiwan_student said…
"Now for those people who say it’s their country and we have no right to change it. Well, Citizenship for children of foreign fathers We Changed That!
(Previously children of foreign fathers were given the boot and kicked out of the country even if the father disappeared!)
Right for foreign or mixed children to attend public schools -we pay taxes too you know… We changed that too.
Freedom of employment for foreign spouses and permanent residents. Changed. "
These are examples of things that were changed, but in no way do they demonstrate a RIGHT to do anything. :wink:
Taiwan_student [quote]There is a thing called “reciprocity.” If my Taiwanese friends (citizen or not) are enjoying certain rights in America. Taiwan has to give these same rights to us. [/quote]
Only in your dreams… :astonished:
This has been argued about over and over…reciprocity is not a law, nor is it a requirement. Mexico allows U.S. citizens to live and work in Mexico a certain period of time, the U.S. does not reciprocate. Canada recognizes marriages from the U.S., the U.S. does not reciprocate (at least for the gay ones) - same for some European countries. Oz allows gay citizens to sponsor partners from the U.S., the U.S. does not recipocate…sorry this could go on forever but I get the feeling I am wasting my time. Have a nice day. :wink:

53

My point is to clarify exactly what you mean when you say … “as long as it’s legal in Taiwan then it is ‘OK’.” Are you saying that all laws are good? No need to ever challenge or question a law?

Also, you need to look beyond the foreigner lens here. It’s possible for these hiring practices to discriminate against a native English speaker who holds an ROC passport and is not white or Western looking.

54

And another thing, it’s “smerf” not “smurf.” Play nice now.

55

[quote=“smerf”]My point is to clarify exactly what you mean when you say … “as long as it’s legal in Taiwan then it is ‘OK’.” Are you saying that all laws are good? No need to ever challenge or question a law?

Also, you need to look beyond the foreigner lens here. It’s possible for these hiring practices to discriminate against a native English speaker who holds an ROC passport and is not white or Western looking.[/quote]
I am saying that I am not Taiwanese, I don’t have a Taiwanese passport so for me, and just for me, I consider the laws of this land to be an issue for the citizens. IF I feel compelled to lead a drive against a law then I am aware that I am doing so at my own peril. I did not come here to fight for human rights nor attempt to impose my morality on the citizens. My brief statement of "as long as it’s legal in Taiwan then is is ‘OK’ probably should have been “as long as it’s legal in Taiwan, then I see no reason for me to rant and rave about the injustice of it all since I am not a citizen and (I personally) have no desire to influence Taiwanese politics, social customs or morals.” That better?
Sorry for misspelling the name but I was doing the spell check, hit the wrong button and couldn’t figure out what I had changed… :unamused: Try it and you will see the first thing to correct - when quoting you is your name.

56

That clarifies it a bit, but I am still somewhat confused by your stance since in another post you said:

“In the U.S., it is illegal therefore wrong.”

Seems to imply that something is right or wrong based on legality alone. I’ve seen too many bad laws to believe that something is good simply because it is law.

Finally, there were people who opposed the segregation laws of the South in the 1800s. It seems reasonable to me that I, and maybe even you, would have been among them.

57

[quote=“smerf”]That clarifies it a bit, but I am still somewhat confused by your stance since in another post you said:

“In the U.S., it is illegal therefore wrong.”

Seems to imply that something is right or wrong based on legality alone. I’ve seen too many bad laws to believe that something is good simply because it is law.

Finally, there were people who opposed the segregation laws of the South in the 1800s. It seems reasonable to me that I, and maybe even you, would have been among them.[/quote]
Maybe I have confused myself… :wink:
I feel I can say “In the U.S., it is illegal therefore wrong” because I am a U.S. citizen and I have the right to express my ‘moral’ judgment or at least I think I do. :wink:
As I have said, I also complicate this issue because I go to great lengths not to ‘judge’ my host country by my home country’s standards (much to the chagrin of my compatriots :wink: Even when I personally find the behavior appalling).
You are, of course, right - legality does not make it morally right; however, something that is legal is normally accepted by the majority of citizens which in turn implies that is morally acceptable.
I have been using this as a definition - for lack of a better one.
Being morally opposed to conflict, slavery, etc., I most likely would have emigrated out of the U.S. at my earliest convenience during the 1800s.

wordiq.com/definition/Moral

58

I think some lines in the sand have to be drawn with regard to what is “right” or “wrong” in respect of the treatment of foreigners here. Somewhere in between passing a law requiring all foriengers to be instantly put to death, and giving foreigners everything they ask for, there has to be crossover point. Obviously this will be different for different people.

The first point I would try to clrify is that it appears Taiwanese law does not support the principle of universal rights, meaning that only citizens have rights. Is there anywhere I could go to look at a comparison of rights between foreigners and citizens ? I mean what right does a foerigner have to an attorney, or to defend himself in court ? If those rights are not protected here then there is little chance of a foreigner being able to complain of racial discrimination. It would be interesting to hear the opinion of a Filipino or Vietnamese worker, or a mainland Chinese spouse. (OT, but has anyone noticed how mainland spouses appear to be off the news ?) According to the ROC constitution mainland spouses are citizens of the ROC, but their rights are vastly different from “Taiwanese”.

So we have a set of rights which citizens enjoy, but it’s none too clear who is a citizen, and citizenship seems to come in many classes. What about a half-Black half-Chinese man adopted by a white family as a kid but born in Beijing in the 70s who cannot trace his ancestry ? Not being funny, but I used to know someone with a comparable background. Depending on how you view the paperwork he could be a “mainlander”, a foreigner, an “overseas Chinese”, or an ROC citizen.

I think essentially Chinese people work along racial lines in identifying people. Ethnically Chinese people are “Zhongguoren” or sometimes “Huaren” regardless of their nationality, and Whites are “Waiguoren”. Blacks of any nationality are “Heiren”, and Japanese are “Ribenren”. Other Asians could be “Yazhouren”, although I’ve heard Chinese people include themselves in this when making comparisons with Europeans. Perhaps ethnic awareness is on the increase in Taiwan (bound to be a bad thing) and maybe people will be able to identify people by something less superficial than skin colour. Doubt it though.

59


Foreign English teachers not necessarily better, experts say, well there you have it. “Experts” are saying the foreigners are no better.

60

Although this has been discussed at length, here it is again -

  1. Almost no country in the world has universal rights for all people within it’s borders.
  2. I think, foreigners can hire attorneys, can sue, and can defend themselves in court; however, if racial discrimination against foreigners is not illegal I am not sure what the benefit of this would be.
  3. Naturally citizens enjoy more rights that foreigners - they also have more responsibilities as well.