Chen shooting revisited

Strange. Noone else came out to identify the man on the video other than the widow.

They also verified (through the bullet casings) that the underground gun manufacturer of the gun used in the attempted assassination was indeed sold to the shooter.

The evidence goes on and on, guys.

And the wife burned all the evidence, etc., etc.

In a span of 2 weeks the police arrested every underground firearm dealer and then some, how many of them cop a deal?

It went on and on, until everyone lost interest and realised the truth would not be discovered while CSB was still in office.

You’re arguments about each piece of evidence, alone, may make one think a bit. However, when one looks at the mountain of evidence compiled by the investigators in it’s totality – it doesn’t warrant even a second of anyone’s day.

And no. It went on and on until everyone realized that this conspiracy theory is ridiculous and wouldn’t gain acceptance by anyone with half a wit.

Actually it went on and on until the partisan nature of Taiwan’s democracy made it impossible for the truth to be discovered.

Green didn’t want to fund the Blue. Blue didn’t trust the Green appointed officials. Etc., etc.

A mountain of coal does not make a gram of gold.

@Betelnut -
Short comment:
I am a westerner who was in the process of planning my move to Taiwan when the “shooting” of CSB occured.
I also followed this event with great interest.
My comments and my personal opinions:

  1. CSB was not shot in the jeep. I do not elieve he was even shot at all.
  2. Pics of CSB entering the hospital show him ambulating on his own with little assistance from his cohorts.
  3. As he enters the hospital, CSB stops, turns to the crowd and raises his hands above his head in a gesture to the crowd. The expression on his face shows no pain from the gesture.
    People who have been shot, stabbed or otherwise injured in the lower abdomen do not do this. Almost physically impossible to perform this movement unaccompanied by an extreme grimace in pain.
  4. For a very brief time a video, and stills from a video, was available in the US. It showed what were reputed to be actual pictures of CSB in the hospital treatment room. The shots(pardon the pun) were of CSB’s lower abdomen showing the ‘wound’ in its entirety before being stichted up.
    The wound was one of the cleanest examples of a topical surgical incision I have ever seen. loked to be approx. 4 - 6 inches long, stright and clean, no ragged edges and barely breaking the skin.
    I have seen several gut shots ad also several wounds from knife slashes to the belly - NONE of them looked like this one. The shots were of a precise surgical action - NOT a bullet wound.
    I have not seen these pics since seeing them in late April 2004 in the US.
  5. Dr.Lee has been stragely non-commital in his post investgation findings. This is not his MO.
  6. The windshield damages does not support a round entering from the outside.
  7. Ann Lu - shot in the leg? She wears more bandages than Michael Jackson. 2 months later she has a bandage on her arm and the cane is used only for photo ops.
  8. Where is the testimony from ‘gun dealers’ involved in this? The police know who the people invoved in ileagal firearms are in Tainan. Why no testimony? A few were picked-up, where are they now? This is a President we are talking about.
  9. Why only limited mention of the “marial law/state of emergency” status that kept many many in the Armed Forces from voting?
    I’d like for there to a #10, but these are just things off the top of my head. A lot of inconsistencies that should not exist in an event of this magnitude…but they do.
    Good luck.
    (and no, I am not a KMT supporter - but I would like to have one of their cool hats)

Yes you have all those points, and until recently disproved, people still believed in the JFK Magic Bullet Theory. Anyone can make a controversy out of anything using off-hand knowledge that feels somewhat right and apply it to anything.

Dr Lee is a respected individual in the criminal forensics field and sent two of his best guys on the job while he was preoccupied with another case. Keep in mind he works for the United States, and although he affiliates himself with the KMT, his findings did match the conclusion we have today. I have total respect and full confidence for the man.

Half your points here, are based not on hard evidence but are in line with the statements made by the guys whom claim with “off-hand knowledge” that the World Trade Center Twin Towers were demolished with explosives. Plus when you are grazed with a bullet, nerve endings are sometimes burnt off. Bullets are VERY hot. Frequently people are hit and don’t realize it until they see the blood. You cannot base an investigation on off-hand everyday knowledge.

I can respect almost all of your other posts, but not this one.


that was a very interesting post and your comments on the wound and the hole in the windshield are similar to experts we (opposition) have spoken to. You obviously know something about what gunshot wounds look like.

I think that you would be interested in seeing my film. I can make a post to the forum and people on this forum living near or in Taipei can tell me I’m a nut bag to my face. :smiley:

I’m glad to see my posts spark some more debate on this issue.

I can address most of the arguments from the Pan Green side of things in detail later, but I can make a few points right now.

First of all, there’s a lot ways to look at this case.

I’ve looked at the “mountain” of evidence that the Police Bureau has provided, and in my opinion, to prove that the shooting was staged, one does not need to disprove point by point all the evidence provided by the government. Because if the evidence provided doesn’t deal directly with the real and important issues surrounding the case, then why spend the time to pick apart all that stuff they have offered?

If you’re more familiar with the case, you’ll know that the wound, the clothing, and the bullet don’t match up very well. When the opposition has asked Dr. Henry Lee, people on his team, the government to answer some specific issues, they can’t really give a reasonable response.

As far as the so called shooter is concerned, the evidence provided by the government is essentially pushing the case in another direction rather than addressing the real issue. The real issue is whether or not Chen was shot by that lead bullet supposedly found in his jacket after he walked into the hospital and the bullet didn’t fall down for some reason.

If it isn’t well established that the lead bullet in question went through all 3 articles of his clothing at the same time and created a wound 2 cm deep, 11 cm long, and has apparent burning marks in it (it was later established that bullets are not hot enough to burn skin), then what is the point of going after the bullet, the casings that were found under a double parked car almost 3 hours after the incident supposedly occurred and the police were not interested in sealing off the scene to secure the evidence and to look for suspects?

You see, Dr. Henry Lee and Police Commissioner Hou You-Yi pushed the investigation in the direction of the bullet and casing without establishing in a satisfactory manner whether Chen’s wound really has anything to do with that lead bullet in the first place.

Therefore, to match the bullet, casing, and the supposed gun with the gunmaker and this supposed shooter is like writing a separate story that doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with the real issue at hand.

Which is whether Chen was hit by that lead bullet.

Not to mention whether or not Lu was hit by that particular copper bullet, and whether a slow moving copper bullet can penetrate a glass windshield at that angle and hit her knee straight on like Dr. Lee pointed has laser.

I’m going to attempt to translate the 319 Truth Committe report into English which does use scientific arguments to assert that the lead bullet in question did not create the wound on Chen’s belly. Of course the government has their own evidence saying that it is possible for someone to be shot like that and create that kind of wound.

It will be difficult for us ordinary people to be a good judge of what is a gunshot wound and what is not.

Therefore, I have used a common sense approach in my film that ordinary people can understand.

Here’s a good website that followed the 319 case and the election drama.

This writer followed up on all the issues and it should give plenty of ammunition to some of the posters on this forum.

Alright @Betelnut, you’ve won some measure of respect for your efforts and I do take back my earlier less respectful statements.

@Tainancowboy, as for the tummy wound, this was effectively a graze, no? Basically Chen had a divot carved out of him by a highly unreliable bullet. I can’t imagine it’s going to look anything like the wound from a military or standard round. For fecksake it didn’t penetrate, it effectively grooved Chen and the copper round thunked into Lu’s knee after losing vollocity getting through the windshield.

I simply can’t accept that such a thorough investigation could have been effectively stooged . . . I mean, that’s the clear assumption, or worse, as STOP_Ma said previously. Still, I am keen to watch your vid Betelnut.


I’m not sure what else ‘maddog’ at ‘’ has to say about the 319 issue… but the entry you linked is pretty idiotic. His entries are pretty uniformly Blue bashing, so hard to imagine he’d share your opinion on the assassination… but perhaps I’ mwrong.

My real complaint isn’t that he’s opposed to the Blues. It’s just hard to take someone seriously when he’s so loose with the facts. His translation of the article on Li Ao is quite simply wrong.

Chinese: 李敖還向歹徒嗆聲,有種就寄大砲或是手榴彈來。
Maddog translates: “There are some who would send a [loose] cannon or perhaps even a hand grenade.”

Uh, no. Li said “if you have balls, send a cannon or a grenade over here”. (This happens to be one of those happy coincidences where idioms are very similar between Chinese/English.) His translation is substantively incorrect. If the guy had comments enabled on the blog I’d let him know he was wrong… but looks like he’s one of those who only like to dish it out.

My comment was that CSB’s wound in the video and stills had very precise and clear edges. Such as a scapel or very well honed blade edge would produce. A wound from a ‘graze’ or a crudely made lead bullet, especially after penetrating 3 layers of clothing, would not present a wound structure such as this. Reasons:
Lead bullets deform. Their mass changed shape quite easily when they encounter objecs in their path. The bullet type presented in this case were rather crude lead cast or hammered projectiles. This is very soft ad easily malleable material. Bullet deformation would be the rule here.
This deformation would be reflected by a jagged and irregular wound channel with peneration, or in this case, a jagged and irregular surface trough or pathway on the skin. This was not what the pics presented.
VP Lu was supposedly hit by a copper jacketed bullet on deflection after coming thru the windschield. Question - Is it plausible to believe that a man intent on a political assasination, kowing this is a highly publicized event, loading his magazine with 2 vastly different types of rounds? Personally I think this leads into a seperate area.

  1. He was handed the weapon by someone else just prior to the shooting.
  2. He was a diversion for another shooter to fire the copper round.
  3. He was never supposed to shoot anybody.
  4. The shooter never existed.
  5. He never shot anyone.

I must state here - I have no way of confirming or not confirming that the video and still I saw were what they were presented to be. I just do not know this for hard fact. But they looked good to me, and a few others with forensic skills that I know viewed them.

ShrimpCrackers -
Please, lets stick to this event and not bring in JFK or Twin Towers conspiracy tin foil…OK?
I also have respect for Dr. Lee. His rep is well established and well deserved. My comment was addressing his lack of further statements of his findings and his reticence to make any further public comments. This is very atypical of him and his office.

I have no dog in this fight…as it were. I think its an interesting excercise in forensic science.

Betelnut -
Your film and work sounds interesting. Alas, I am in Tainan so a Taipei viewing is probably not on my horizon.

Good stuff All!

Then stop digging in the coal mine.

I recently heard a pretty good point regarding the blood on Chen Shui-Bian’s clothing that I’d like to hear opinions here.

Since I’m thinking about inserting this point into my film last minute, I was hoping to get some counter arguments to see what the pan green point of view could be on this issue.

First of all, I would like to respond to this post about bullets burning skin or not.

This has already been well-established last year that bullets don’t burn skin. It’s not a matter of opinion. The blue camp started reading books and the ruling party was forced to come up with another explanation for the apparent black burning marks in Chen’s wound.

The word “thermal” was even removed between Dr. Henry Lee’s first and second draft.

Here is a quote from a book called Gunshot Wounds.

Vincent Di Maio, Gunshot Wounds pp. 84
“the contact time between the bullet and skin is extremely short, insufficient to cause a burn.” “That bullets do not burn skin has been known for some time. In the late nineteenth century, Von Beck conducted experiments to determine the amount of heat imparted… the temperature of a recovered lead bullet of .45 caliber was 69 degree Celsisus… The missles were handled by the fingers and never possessed sufficient heat to burn skin.”

Go to this site to get the pdf from Dr. Henry Lee’s Committee Report.

Pg. 46 has a picture of the dress shirt he was wearing in between his undershirt and jacket.

Pg. 38 has a picture of the inside of Chen’s jacket. If you zoom in to the stain, there appear to be ointment stains that are coming from the outside, but there is no apparent blood.

In this picture of Chen in the jeep, he is leaning forward on the black bar.

Therefore his dress shirt must be certainly touching the inside of his jacket.

However, there are no apparent blood stains of on the inside of his jacket.

I think we all know that blood turns dark brown when it dries up in clothing, so the oily marks are definitely not blood.

This is one of many logical problems with the 319 incident, but this is one of the better arguments I have heard.

:flog: :blah: :sleepy:

Betelnut -
This is a fascinating point you make. I did not notic the reference to “bullet burns” or I woud have also commented on that. Powder burns yes - when in close proximity during firing; but “bullet burns” is most definitely a new one to hear.
Thanks for clearing this mis-conception up.
Look forward to more from you on this incident.

I was hoping to get more of a substantial response than this.

Here is a website with a lot of technical information that most of us won’t understand, but it raises a lot of issues with the physical evidence.

It does address some of the Criminal Investigation Bureau and Dr. Henry Lee claims as some of you would like to see.

A couple more points some would like to ponder.

On Pg. 37 of the Dr. Henry Lee report, there is a picture of the jacket with 2 holes in it. Given that Chen was allegedly shot once, how could there be 2 holes in the right side of his jacket. The Criminal Investigation Bureau has claimed from the beginning that there is only 1 hole in the jacket, but the Lee report accidentally pointed out the 2nd hole. In the 8.17.05 Criminal Investigation Bureau final report the jacket once again has only 1 hole.

On top of that, the Criminal Investigation Bureau and Dr. Henry Lee (who admitted in his 319 book in Chinese) admit that there are no fibers from the jacket to be found on the lead bullet head.

But there’s 2 holes in the jacket! :bravo:

There should be plenty of fibers from the jacket on that bullet head.

When Dr. Henry Lee addressed this issue in his book, he said, “If the Criminal Investigation Bureau really wanted to fake this incident, why didn’t they just put the fibers on to the bullet?”

Can you imagine if an expert witness made this kind of remark in a court of law in front of a jury?

Finally, I was wondering what people thought of the x-ray that we’ve seen with the bullet head behind his back. I don’t have a link for it on the web off hand, but most of have seen it.

Chen Shui-Bian allegedly got shot standing in a jeep, waved to people, walked into the hospital, and the bullet head some how didn’t fall down. Then he layed down for surgery in the ER where the doctors lifted his clothing up and he didn’t notice a lead bullet behind him, then walked to the x-ray room for an x-ray. He then layed down again and still didn’t feel the bullet head. Then they took the x-ray and the lead bullet head showed up.

At 3:30 Pres. Office Sec. General Chiou I-jen said that the bullet is on the president’s body and smiled almost cracking up. He wasn’t kidding alright.

When I first read the book on the 319 incident “Shooting President?” I thought to myself that Chen Shui-Bian really doesn’t care how ridiculous the story goes. I guess that they were really only concerned with showing an x-ray to the public on 3.19 to emphasize that the bullet was on his body for maximum effect to make people worry and possibly mistake that the bullet was inside his body.

So what do you guys think of the x-ray? Does it sound reasonable to you that the bullet head wouldn’t fall down from his clothing?

For yet another crackpot conspiracy theorist? You have to be kidding, right? My response was actually far, far more than your kooky nonsense was worth. Get over it, already. Lien the Slime lost to Bien the Greaseball. LOST! BEATEN! DEFEATED!
Next election, Greaseball will be BEATEN, DEFEATED, by Ma Ma Hu Hu.
Nothing will change. Taiwan’s politicians will go right on being corrupt and venal. Ho Hum.
Green shit, blue shit, still stinks like shit.

I know your game Sandman, you’re just trying to impress Guangtou. He doesn’t speak to me anymore. The bastard snuck over one night and saw me taking the trash out. Seems I’d forgotten to sort out me recyclables.

Ummm, didn’t you just claim elsewhere not to be cycnical, or sumfink?


Perhaps this might be for another kind of thread, but this kind of response is basically one of the last conclusions I made in my film from the Pan Green side of things.

At the end of the day, after all the detail is given on the vote fraud and the 319 incident, the pan green supporter simply doesn’t care. It’s just comes down to “I win, and what are you going to do about it? I won.”

There isn’t much left to say when the person you’re debating with just doesn’t care.

That’s what i really found out about Taiwan. A lot of Pan Green people really don’t care if the election was fraudulent or if the shooting was phony. Of course, many really do believe the shooting was real and the election was legit, but many also just don’t care. In other words, they kinda know there’s something fishy, but don’t care. It’s about being in power. Not about actually have a democratic Taiwan.

Nobody admits it on camera though. They sort of admit it to me privately after I tell them a few things. Then they go “Okay, so what? The KMT used to cheat.”

Puhleeze, I saw Sr. Chen’s motorcade in front of my school and they were doing 5Km at best, mainly because they had their hired supporters following on foot…

There is no evidence that it was a homemade handgun. Hell, there is no evidence whatsoever. Funny, eh?

Because you haven’t been giving me my meds.
Anyway, I’m still not cynical about Taiwan or about living here. The politics? That’s another story altogether. :wink:
And there’s nowt cynical about green shit-blue shit – that’s nobbut a simple fact.