( I swore I wouldn’t get drawn into these conversations…) Betelnut, the issue has been resolved by the courts, which was the correct and appropriate thing to do. The courts did not find convincing evidence for vote fraud on a scale great enough to affect the outcome of the election. Accept the results and move on.
Anyway, your side is looking very strong for 2008.
I see what you’re saying, but I am thinking of the future also when I continue to address this issue.
The judges did not handle the case in a satisfactory manner. It wasn’t that there wasn’t evidence. There was. They just chose not to look at it and give the public this interpretation that nothing qualifies as fraud.
If you really want me to start another thread on how the judges handled the evidence, I could, but I don’t think most people on this forum understand the lawsuits and how the evidence was handled. They just look at the verdict and go with that because it was what they believed in the first place.
I am looking ahead to the future. A terrible precedent has been set in this past election, and it could very well be repeated if we don’t fully understand the 2004 election.
I can accept being cheated as Lien, Soong, and most pan blue supporters certainly have, but I can never accept what happened as being acceptable. It should be addressed fully and as much of the truth should be out there so we can avoid this kind of thing in the future.
This is the responsible approach to take if you actually want Taiwan to be a legit democracy.
If the DPP does not get exposed to its fullest between now and 2008, we may very well see another charade of activites like we saw in 2004. The party and their supporters need a wake up call that what happened was not acceptable. To look the other way will not make it go away even though it was a long time ago.
There will be more 319 evidence coming out, and I’ll continue to post what I think could be interesting for people to read about.
I think that at least some of people on this forum and in this very thread DO understand the lawsuits and were very closely involved with reporting on the lawsuits and spent a great deal of their time professionally analyzing the lawsuits as part of their jobs and as totally unaffiliated outsiders who really didn’t give a shit one way or the other who won or lost. And that’s why they’re laughing at the pan-blue inability to face the fact that Lien was defeated yet again.
But go ahead with your conspiracy theories if it makes you feel any better. I’m sure you have a few other benighted believers out there.
Sorry, I didn’t mean to be condescending to people in the forum. It’s just that in my experience, from the Pan Green people I’ve interviewed and spoken to, they don’t possess much knowledge of the lawsuit beyond the fact that the judges ruled that there was no evidence.
Only the head DPP lawyer I interviewed has given an argument (which is the same argument the judge gave) as to why none of the so called evidence was considered to be evidence of fraud in the election.
Since I’m assuming that most people on this forum read English language newspapers about Taiwan, I know that they didn’t report on it much more than that the judges ruled that there were only 3,000 or so ballots that had problems.
Therefore, I didn’t think it was necessary for me to get into the arguments for and against what constitutes as fraud in an election.
you mentioned the investigators focusing on the shooter and ignoring other aspects of the evidence. it seems your movie is going to based on that approach, attempting to prove that no shooting took place. i’ll be interested to see that. the burden of proof is going to be high there however.
Like Feiren I swore I would never again be dragged into this ridiculous topic. I have not read through the pages of posts in this rebirth of Taiwan lunacy because I don’t think a rehash of the same conspiracy theory is worth it.
Something I can’t help wondering when I read about election irregulaties in 2004 is how many people here have first-hand knowledge of elections. Honestly, has anyone here ever worked in an election campaign or an election scrutineer in their home country?
There are 2 issues at stake here: vote buying and ballot fraud. Everyone knows that in Taiwan parties buy loyalty. Whether or not this has an effect on major elections like presidential campaign is not at all clear, but it certainly does happen.
The major issue is whether or not there was ballot fraud. Ballot fraud is not the same as what frequently gets called irregularities. There are always irregularities in an election. What makes them fraud is if they are systematic and motivated. Betelnut seems to be implying that he has secret knowledge about these irregularities that makes them fraud. He would have start that other thread to convince anyone of this since not even the pro-Blue media seemed to know about them.
After reading the forensic report by Dr. Lee et al, I can only wonder at the sanity of those who believe in a conspiracy. Who could possibly think that Chen, a man who slaps mentholatum on a gunshot wound and wears torn shirts even though he’s the president, could ever imagine, let alone engineer such a deviously detailed hoax. Imagine soaking just the right amount of blood into just the right areas of a shirt, jacket, undershirt and trousers to convince Dr. Henry Lee and the Taiwanese police forensics people. And of course getting the same fibres stuck to a bullet along with Chen’s blood and planting the bullet. Not to mention bribing a lot doctors whose moral disintegrity must be beyond question.
The conspiracy theory is a pretty captivating story, but that is all it is. The truth is quite clearly expressed in the Lee report. That’s the impression I get when I read it.
The Lee report, from which I got that picture, says: “This thermal injury is consistent with a typical bullet graze wound.” Even if the word thermal is later edited out, the statement is still a solid assertion. Would the conspirators truly have us believe that Dr. Lee was willing to say the opposite of what he believed, assuming that gunshot wounds never “burn” the tissue as some people on this thread seem to believe. Why would Dr. Lee risk his career for Chen?
As for the bullet being found in the deeper layers of Chen’s clothing, I think that’s a very reasonable thing to expect. After cutting through several layers of cloth, then Chen’s belly, and then a couple more layers of cloth it finally came to rest without actually exiting through the back of the jacket.
If one really needs proof, look at the copper bullet’s deformation (like a chunk missing from one of the edges) and then at the windshield hole. It’s easy to imaging the bullet hitting the glass while flying with a tumbling or wobbling action (damn homemade bullets) and breaking through the glass while deflecting downward into Annette Lu’s knee. Certainly a lot of force was involved in shearing off that chunk of bullet, so we would expect it to deflect severely in some direction.
It’s true. Nobody but Art Bell should bother reading this thread. It’s just that I love a good conspiracy, even if it’s easily debunked.
Chen needs to get the general public to read the Lee report.
There are several problems with the lack thereof of blood.
There is no blood on his underwear even though in a picture released from the Pres. Office, the underwear appears to have been at the same level of his wound, but the center portion was brought down. Remember blood drips down also.
The blood on his undershirt is only 7.5 cm wide in length. The wound is 11 cm wide. The holes in the undershirt are only 7.5 cm apart also while his wound is 11 cm. Even if some how the holes in his shirt really only came out to be 7.5 cm apart, the blood should be about 11 cm wide.
Please refer to pg. 53 of the Lee report and look at the distance and the width of the bloodsains on the undershirt. You can use the ruler provided by Dr. Henry Lee. It’s only 7.5 wide.
As I said in an earlier post, there is clearly blood on his dress shirt but no blood on the inside of his jacket. That is not possible because his dress shirt and jacket were in contact with each other and he was leaning forward after he got “shot” in the jeep.
The picture doesn’t appear in the Lee report, but pictures from the Pres. Office show a sharp rectangular mark on the side of Chen’s stomach, that appears to be a bandage mark. This was released in the election court. If Chen’s wound was made beforehand which it apparently was, then the bandage mark suggests that he put a bandage over the wound and ripped off the bandage when it was time for him to be “shot”.
This picture will be shown in my film, but it is also in the 319 Truth Committee report, and Wang Ching-Feng of the Truth Committee has clearly pointed out the level of Chen’s underwear and the bandage mark on talk shows.
Regarding the fibers on the bullet, I said before that there are no fibers on the jacket even though he has 2 holes in his jacket according to the Lee report. Additionally, other experts have mentioned that the fibers should be engraved on the bullet in a vertical fashion if the bullet was really shot through the clothing. The fibers on the bullet are there in a curly fashion suggesting that they simply rubbed the bullet on 2 out of 3 articles of his clothing.
I would like to point out that experts and people familiar with gunshot wounds have a very strong consensus simply by looking at these pictures, that Chen’s wound is definitely a surgical wound, and that the evidence has been staged very badly.
I have pointed out some things that you can just use your common sense to think about, but it obviously hasn’t changed anyone’s mind here.
To stage the shooting Chen only needs to cooperate with some of his security team, and a few doctors from the Presidential Office. As far as we know, there is at least one person (a vice director) from Chi-Mei hospital that directly cooperated with Chen to do this.
Chi-Mei hospital did remodeling to their ER before the 319 incident, and there have been voices that have leaked out of Chi-Mei that people working there knew something “big” was going to happen. They didn’t know what, but they only knew something was going to happen.
Therefore, this conspiracy I am referring to, does not directly involve that many people. Just about 10 or so.
Chen’s jeep is NOT even moving at full speed. It does NOT zig-zag along its path. Taiwan roads are narrower than most roads in US. The assailant shot out of the sidewalk while Chen’s jeep pass by in that slow arse constant parade speed. He’s even waving his otherwise girly hand along the way. Yeah, some Great (ROC trained) shooting at point-blank range of pistol!!
Betelnut has and is presenting a well researched and backgrounded possible scenario for what occurred on the day of the CSB/Annette Lu shooting.
I understand that for some, any criticism of the DPP and its leader - CSB - borders on heresy; but I have yet to see any sourced or researched refutations of the material @Betelnut is providing.
Just splenetic diatribe about dead horses and wasting bandwidth.
Whether one agrees with where his material is leading to or not - it is, for some (and I’ve sent this thread to other interested parties) a good look at forensic analysis of an event of current political and possibly historical import.
So you don’t agree - good for you. Move beyond quibbling insults and show some facts as to why you disagree.
Shutting down the messenger because you don’t what he says is more akin to the actions of the regieme 100 miles to the west of us. Is that the role model one should aspire to?
Another critical issue with the 319 case is the way the 2 bullet casings were found on the street.
The entire investigation by the CIB and Dr. Lee are based on the assumption that he 2 casings found at Jin Hua Rd. No. 12 were the casings to the bullets used to hit Chen and Lu.
However, these casings were found at 5:30 P.M. by people from vendors on the street.
Apparently, one vendor double parked his car at No. 12, and at 5 P.M., drove his car back to his space at No. 8 and the casings were later picked up where his car was.
When we interviewed the vendor at No. 8, he said that the street had been cleaned for firecracker remnants. (This interview is in my film).
How could the casings still be there after the street was cleaned well enough to get firecracker remnants off the street but not two bullet casings? While not impossible, I would like to point out the sequence of events that led to the casingns being found.
This is why people believe that the casings were planted on the street.
Additionally, people from the government obtained security video cameras and people’s still cameras in the area of the shooting. They actually confiscated the entire camera. We know this from interviewing people on Jin Hua Rd. This happened as early as 2:30 P.M.
Therefore, evidence from pictures and video was collected by the government but they were not interested in sealing off the scene nor were they interestsed in looking for suspects. They were only itnerested in obtaining people’s pictures and video.
And don’t forget, Chiou I-Jen, the secretary general of the Pres. Office announced to the nation at 3:30 that the President had been shot and gave the general location. And yet, they didn’t seal off the scene.
At 5:40 P.M. or so, the police finally decided to seal off the scene.
The opinion of people who have researched 319 is that the government obtained all video and pictures of the incident in order to control as much of the evidence that exists of the incident.
And remember, the appearance of the hole in the windshield must match the locations of the casings. The hole must not be there before the location of the casings. In the final CIB report, they have several unclear pictures of the jeep trying to prove that there was no hole in the windshield before No. 12.
If the President was really shot by a rouge gunman, why would the governement agents and the local police be so uninterested in sealing off the scene and looking for suspects? Shouldn’t they be all over the area as soon as the Chief Aide De Camp Chen Tsai-Fu saw the hole in the windhsield right in front of him in the passenger seat?
Why are the government agents only interested in confiscating pictures and video of the scene instead of looking for leads and suspects?
Are you a librarian, or do you like posting with the help of a dictionary? Now calm down, do not jump to conclusions as you have done previously, this is not an insult, I ask out of interest only.
You need to work on your reading comprehension. I haven’t defended CSB or the DPP, or Taiwan, or even stray cats without homes. Nor have I said whether I agree or disagree. Nor have I “shut down the messenger”, good for me!
What I, among many others, have implied is that this topic has been discussed to no end already, and leaving it to a few intrepid but anonymous internet personalities to uncover the “truth” that the Taiwanese establishment, foreign experts, and the world’s richest political party all could not do with huge motivation and almost two years of time, is the very definition of, a waste of time.
It is true that too many people think name-calling is a worthy addition to an already long thread. That’s Forumosa for you. Well, I guess that’s any BBS really. But I can’t see why some people expect other people to stop discussing this. It’s not a “waste of bandwidth” unless everyone is forced to read it. I sure know what I consider a waste of bandwidth, and that is some people telling others what is acceptable for discussion. Maybe some people (like me) would rather read this active thread rather than dig back through a thread from 2004. So what? And Betelnut certainly shows his/her good faith in soliciting adversarial opinions to his/her own beliefs.
Alas, I am guilty of the name-calling myself, aren’t I?
Anyhoo, I was wondering when your documentary will be done, Betelnut. And, since a documentary can’t contain too many details, shouldn’t you write a book too, or at least a Web site?
For me, one of the big things that leaves me unconvinced of any conspiracy is the quality of the evidence, which you say “has been staged very badly.” If that were true, wouldn’t a lot of investigators, and most especially Dr. Lee, have their suspicions aroused? I think everything in the Lee report looks quite in order. The most likely scenario was proven, or nearly proven(?) to be plausible.
You say the wound is too long to match the bullet holes. Well, that seems a pretty elementary observation, so why didn’t that fact bother Dr. Lee or his assistants? Dittto for the lack of blood inside the jacket.
Why exactly do you say he pressed his jacket into his shirt [i]after /i taking the bullet?
I may write a website one day, but not a book for sure. I didn’t research the incident well enough for that.
At first glance, one may think that the Lee report is in order. However, if you are familiar with the problems in the evidence, you will know that the Lee report did not address many problematic issues the opposition has been pointing out. Some are simply glossed over or ignored. I am pointing out some of them here.
I went to a seminar on 319 where the problems with the evidence and the story of the government were hashed out in a lot of detail. If an open-minded person attends that seminar they would be able to understand why the evidence has problems with it and that the incident was probably staged.
After I attended this seminar, I eagerly awaited Dr. Lee’s report. But when I read it, I was convinced that the shooting was in fact staged.
Why is that?
It’s because he didn’t address any of the problems in the evidence. He emphasizes details that don’t matter that much, and neglects a lot of common sense issues that I have been pointing out.
The Lee report is a report that attempts to present the physical evidence in a way to make the incident look real.
Therefore, if you are not familiar with the sequence of events of this incident, the report by itself would convince a lot of people that the incident occurred as it was reported.
In his initial press conferences, Dr. Lee did admit that there were some strange things, but either said he couldn’t explain it, or he stayed very neutral about it. He didn’t speak too loudly about some things. However, he did emphasize clearly what he could emphasize to suggest that the shooting incident occured as it was reported.
If you watch my film, you will see that I present what the CIB or Dr. Lee is claiming, and then I am pointing out why that explanation isn’t substantial.
To answer your question regarding what experts think, let me say very plainly that Dr. Henry Lee’s team was sent here to take the evidence presented to them by the government at face value, and then to present it in a way that makes the incident look real.
What I am saying is that they are not neutral experts. Nor are the experts hired by the opposition to point out what is wrong with the evidnece.
Why is there this assumption that Dr. Henry Lee’s team is neutral so they are therefore trustworthy?
If you look into court cases, you will see that experts are never neutral and they are either involved with cases on the prosecution or defense side.
My basic point is that experts with the same background in forensics all over the world have looked at these pictures, and they all agree that the incident has been staged badly.
Why has it been staged badly?
There are forensic or technical details as to why that is, but I am sticking mostly to the common sense points.
You agree that it is a pretty elementary observation that there should be blood on the inside of his jacket and that the holes in the undershirt don’t match the length of his wound, but Dr. Henry Lee’s team was not brought here to point these issues out.
They instead emphasized that there were glass shreds on the dashboard which suggests that the bullet came from the outside.
So there are certain parts of the evidence that benefit Chen and there are other parts of the evidence to suggest that the incident was staged. It just depends on what part you want to focus on to confirm your original feeling regrading this matter.
When I say that Chen’s jacket was certainly pressed against his dress shirt, I mean that he was leaning forward in the jeep against the black bar according to that picture I linked. Therefore, his loose fitting jacket certainly came into contact at some point with his dress shirt.
So anyway, Dr. Lee’s team is presented in my film as a group of foreign experts brought here to make Chen’s incident look real.
I have a few scenes where a member of his team attempts to explain the details of the evidence, but cannot explain all of them. His intended goal is to explain why it is reasonalbe for the evidence to be the way it is.
When the Pan Blue people continued to point out problems, he couldn’t explain some things like why the holes in the undershirt are only 7.5 cm apart and also that the blood dooesn’t match.
The film will be done next month.
In response to Freakin Amazing’s post, I see your point, and I do agree that it is an old issue, but I think this comes down to how we want to look at history. Regarding this case, the evidence is all in the hands of the government. The opposition only has pictures of the evidence released by the government. Therefore, the opposition cannot prove, but can only make judgments based on the pictures.
The CIB is in full possession of everything, and they decide the direction of the investigation which is to chase the gun which match the casings and the bullets.
The opposition is not in a position to prove anything. Foreign experts can only make opinions which the ruling party can just ignore and make cheap shots in return saying that they are not as good as Dr. Henry Lee.
The judiciary in the lawsuits ignored evidence regarding 319 because they deemed it unimportant because they said that staging a shooting incident isn’t considered illegal because Chen did not force people to vote for him. Therefore, even if the shooting is fake, the election is still valid.
Basically, at the end of the day, nothing the oppostion does regarding this case can create any change no matter how much noise they make about it.