Chiang Kai-Shek in modern Taiwan

Arts & Sciences Culture & History
1

Recently I’ve been really interested in Chinese history and read a lot about it, and been wondering how is Chiang Kai-Shek viewed in modern Taiwan? I mean there’s the Chiang-Kai Shek memorial hall in Taipei and then there’s the Qingming festival(Tomb sweeping day) that is celebrated on the day he died. At least these things come to my mind. I also remember having read that people used to put his pictures on the walls of their houses, can you still find these in some peoples’ houses, or is it completely abolished? Is he actually still respected and held in high regard by the people in Taiwan?

Sorry if this the wrong section, I couldn’t figure out a better one to ask this.

2

We all hate him. He was a murdering thug who was never held in high esteem by local Taiwanese.

3

Anyone with epaulettes the size of his head has got to have something wrong with him.

It’s an interesting question though. Given that most Taiwanese do seem to think he was an asshole, why are there still various roads and buildings named after him?

As for the photos, I can’t say I’ve ever seen one of CKS in a public building, or in someone’s house. They’re all of Dr SYS, aren’t they?

4

I am quite certain that I read somewhere about the CKS photos, but it might have been like in 1980s or around that time. Didn’t CKS and his son still lay the foundation for the modern Taiwan, maybe unknowingly but still. At least I’ve read that he initiated some land reforms and improved the education, paving the road for Taiwan to become one of the “four asian tigers” Also the picture might be somewhat misleading, if I remember correctly he used to dress very plainly unlike most of the former leaders. That was one thing why some people of the time admired him. The picture below might be more representative.

5

Everything he did was forced on him as part of the Marshall Plan. As well as all the gold in China he took a shit load of money off of the USA and never repaid it. The much vaunted land reform was to get Marshall Plan funding.

When the DPP came to power they made sure all his effigies were taken down. The CKS Hall had its name changed. The real credit and kudos for Taiwan’s modernization goes to Chiang Jing-guo. The telling fact here: the CKS hall was set up by CKS himself, in memory of himself…the ego on that wanker :sunglasses: . Chiang Jing-guo specifically stipulated that no memorial would be made for him, and none exists. :thumbsup:

6

I’m sure there are still a few photos of CKS in the homes of elderly veterans in their 80s or 90s. The last one I saw was in an old country store in the mountains of Yilan. The proprietor was an elderly Atayal aboriginal woman whose desceased husband was a veteran. She has now rejoined her ancestors and her children are now selling locally grown coffee with some success. I noticed they removed the photo of CKS though. I think its very typical of how Taiwanese handle these things. While their mother was around, she wanted it up because her husband had hung it up. Now that she is gone, they probably don’t want to offend their customers of might not like it themselves.

There are still roads in almost every town named after him because people don’t associate the name with him much. How many American really think of Andrew Jackson when they see Jackson Avenue or the like? Plus, every time a politician does change the name, there is a huge fight and most people don’t want their elected representatives wasting time and energy on symbolic issues when there are so many real issues that affect people daily lives.

Chiang Kai-shek has been quietly forgotten in most places in Taiwan. You do still see his statue at schools and of course the CKS memorial.

See Chiang Kai-shek statues - Wikipedia

7

I don’t think the memorial was planned until after his death. Chiang Kai-shek Memorial Hall - Wikipedia

He did very little to develop Taiwan when he was actively in power until the mid-1960s because he was focused on maintaining and building up his military capabilities in case an opportunity arose to retake China. Chiang was a very shrewd leader who might have been able to retake China if the US had let him off his leash. Of course the risk of a Soviet invasion of China was not one the US was ready to take. Chiang immediately grasped the chaos that the Cultural Revolution was creating and may have been right in his estimation that he could have succeeded.

He had pulled off stunning reversals in the past and dominated China for more than 20 years after putting an end to the kind of warlordism we see in countries like Zaire and Afghanistan today. Not to mention surviving the Sino-Japanese war and making the best of the very bad hand that had been dealt to China. He also presided over an enormously corrupt regime in China and thought nothing of killing 20 or 30 thousand Taiwanese to maintain his grip on power in his last refuge. Not to mention far greater cost of life in China when he intentionally flooded the Yellow River in 1938 and killed a cool million people to stop the Japanese.

He remains a fascinating historical figure who had a tremendous impact on Chinese history and by extension world affairs. The Nanjing era before the Japanese invasion is the blueprint for Chinese modernity and the current regime in Beijing is basically just putting into practice what Chiang tried to do 80 years ago.

8

Anyone else have any background on the CKS Hall? I still suspect planning was in place before his death. That is prime land that would have had to be cleared in advance.

9

It was a Japanese military base, and then a squatter’s village.

10

I’m not so sure about that. Shrewd, certainly - you don’t get that many people doing what they’re told without some grasp of human nature. But by most accounts he was a hopeless military leader. The Americans thought he was an incompetent idiot. Presumably they had to micromanage him because he was incapable of doing anything without stealing half the funding.

That’s my understanding too. It’s possible some people give some credit to CKS simply for producing a son who wasn’t a greedy halfwit.

As for land reform, I can thoroughly recommend a quick visit to the Land Reform museum, if you happen to be in the area. No country has ever developed without a proper land reform programme supported by the populace (as opposed to a sham designed to benefit the elites). Taiwan miraculously managed to achieve this even under an oppressive government:

landreform.org.tw/e-index.aspx

As mentioned back there, it probably helped that it was backed by the US, which had a lot of recent experience with such things:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Ameri … nstruction

11

Chiang’s talents were definitely more political than they were military. Still, he defeated pretty much every Chinese opponent he ever came up against until the final war against CCP. And his forces in World War II held out against the Japanese for eight years against incredible odds. Much longer than the British or the Americans did. Much of our negative view of Chiang comes from popular Barbara Tuchman’s great book on Stillwell’s relationship with Chiang Kai-shek in which she adopts Stillwell’s views pretty uncritically. The Stillwell-Chiang story is a fascinating example of how everything can go wrong in a relationship between an American and the Chinese.

Recent books like Jay Taylor’s The Generalissmo and Rana Mitter’s ‘Forgotten Ally’ are well worth reading for their revisionary takes.

Chiang Ching-kuo was a soviet style planner. A few of his big transportation projects like the freeway and the airport were successes but those were pretty obvious. The rest was useless ports and state run heavy industry that has largely been a drain on Taiwan’s economy. Most of the real credit should probably go to the US for insisting on land reform, providing massive aid and technical support, insisting that Taiwan open up to foreign investment, and most important of all, opening the vast US consumer markets to Taiwanese products. And of course the Taiwanese people who did all the work.

I’m not so sure about that. Shrewd, certainly - you don’t get that many people doing what they’re told without some grasp of human nature. But by most accounts he was a hopeless military leader. The Americans thought he was an incompetent idiot. Presumably they had to micromanage him because he was incapable of doing anything without stealing half the funding.

That’s my understanding too. It’s possible some people give some credit to CKS simply for producing a son who wasn’t a greedy halfwit.

As for land reform, I can thoroughly recommend a quick visit to the Land Reform museum, if you happen to be in the area. No country has ever developed without a proper land reform programme supported by the populace (as opposed to a sham designed to benefit the elites). Taiwan miraculously managed to achieve this even under an oppressive government:

landreform.org.tw/e-index.aspx

As mentioned back there, it probably helped that it was backed by the US, which had a lot of recent experience with such things:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Ameri … nstruction[/quote]

12

A project of that size, completed within 5 years. Would be a first for Taiwan. No way it wasn’t in planning before cash my check popped his clogs.

13

Very interesting. So did United States actually tell CKS to stop trying to take mainland back? Also, didn’t USA right after the R.O.C goverment relocated to Taiwan believe that Taiwan would fall under communist control? So what made them change their mind and suddenly offer huge support for the country? I’ve also read that CKS commited many crimes including the white terror and supression of political opponents back in the mainland, but is the scale really comparable at all to the crimes that Mao commited during the cultural revolution and the great leap forward?

14

The Korean War convinced the US not to abandon CKS.

As for comparisons, what is your agenda here? Why compare evils? Obviously the scale is smaller but why do you think that is relevant?

15

One million during the suppression of communism campaign. But yeah, Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot are your top three in that particular game.

16

there was an “ROC history as rewritten by CKS” thread by hokwongwei

forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopi … 7#p1572767

I think it’s worth going through and understand a lot of “official information” out there, even in English, are twisted propaganda by CKS.

In reality, CKS was a gang member, and SYS found him useful as an assassin. CKS also faked his military training credentials and SYS eventually bought it and awarded his loyalty with being the principle of the Soviet sponsored Whampoa military school.

From there CKS controlled the KMT with the only army KMT really ever controlled to achieve personal political goals. In the end, he was no military genius and never left his gang/assassin ways behind.

As a military leader he never gained any real victories. His 2 northern expedition ended in a drawn out 3 way melee. If the Japanese didn’t get over zealous about exploiting the situation, Zhang Zuo-lin wouldn’t have aided Chiang, and Chiang was likely to face ultimate defeat.

His fight against the Japanese was poorly conceived and filled with disregard for human life. Under his order the KMT army breached the yellow river dam at Huayuankou, drawing close to a million innocent civilians while claiming it was done by Japanese bombers.

His anti-communist war ended him in Taiwan. He distrusted people more capable than him, and those favored by the Americans. CKS pulled them away from the front lines then micromanaged every single battle, unfortunately being a genuinely untalented military leader, that doomed the KMT military.

As a politician, he and his wife never believed in democracy or justice. He had no grasp over how to run the economy. He relied on secret police and the military to smooth things over.

Above all, he was really really full of himself, and as such was unable to listen to those who were desperately trying to help him succeed. He was great at pissing off allies, including the Americans. Oh, and because he wants people to buy into his savior image, he modified the crap out of facts/history.

To maintain that image, KMT built him a memorial hall, and declared it an historical building after 26 years. Every school had an CKS statue, every classroom had a CKS photo. They also had students singing a song about how amazingly awesome CKS was in elementary schools. One line goes like this:

“President Chiang, you are the savior of our race, and a great man of the world”

17

CKS also talked a tough stance on corruption, but he never failed to let his relatives reaped the benefits of him being in power. During prior to Japanese’s 1937 full scale invasion of ROC, KMT held area under Chiang never established a major steel factory or ammunition factory. During the same period fellow warlords Wu Peifu and Zhang Zuolin both had these important factories setup. The reason why KMT didn’t peruse these all important war factories is that Chiang’s relative, finance minister Kung Hsiang-hsi, was in bed with steel import interests, actually, he was the steel import interest.

In the end both Zhang Zuolin and Wu Peifu’s steel and ammo factories fell into Japanese hands, and KMT’s army had less ammo to use throughout the 8 years fighting the Japanese than the Americans troops used up in 35 days during the battle of Iwo Jima.

18

Say WHAT?
No. He is a looser and an anathema. He brought enormous misery and caused irreparable damage to Taiwan.

He has no place in modern Taiwan.

I personally want to see his embalmed corpse shipped back to China. Better yet, one of the Chinese Studies programs in US universities should come pick it up.

19

Other posters have already given great information, but I can’t not participate in this discussion.

CKS’s place in history is quite strange. To the communists, he’s the bastard who couldn’t keep China together; to the stalwart KMT supporters, he’s the determined leader who kept trying to keep China together; to Taiwan Independence supporters, he’s the bastard who got Taiwan all caught up in the drama of keeping China together. What’s weirder is that for the Chinese, CKS and the KMT and the ROC are all parts of history that stopped being relevant 65 years ago; for the Taiwanese, CKS and his policies and his deeds all have a very real effect on the average person, even if it is becoming less and less obvious in daily life.

Everyone knows he was a dictator, but many people today still think of him as a sort of benign one, not associating him directly with the atrocities of martial law. From my observation, it is entirely correlate with a person’s knowledge of Taiwanese history; the more you know about Chiang and his regime, the less it is possible to like and defend him. However, many people simply aren’t that acquainted with their own history (I admit that there are many aspects of US history I’m still completely ignorant of) and so they are used to seeing portraits of the Generallissimo hanging around and they’re used to his statues because he’s the great guy who is one day going to save China… or so says granddad and the history textbooks.

You could honestly ask this same question about Mao: why if even the CPC admits he engineered post-war China’s most disastrous policies does he still get his beaming smile on the Forbidden City gates and RMB100 bills? Because no reasonable politician wants to be an iconoclast and risk pissing off the blind supporters who remain loyal to him. Better to stuff the bodies of CKS and Mao in a closet somewhere until they are no longer relevant, and then in a few generations you can get to spring cleaning and disposal.

The strangest thing to me is when you see things like this:

left to right: Chiang Ching-kuo, Lee Teng-hui, Chen Shui-bian, Ma Ying-jeou. Not pictured, but also included in this set: Chiang Kai-shek and Sun Yat-sen. And next year they’ll probably have to include a Tsai Ing-wen bobblehead, too.

The strange thing is that in democratic Taiwan, we can line up the presidents from the dictator-for-life and his autocratic but less unreasonable son to democratically elected ones, and Chen Shui-bian is only two spaces away from CKS.

By the way, it’s worth nothing that chapter 16 of the KMT party charter is 本黨以繼承 總理領導革命之蔣中正先生為總裁。

(translated by me):

Sun is listed as Eternal President, while Chiang is listed as Eternal Director-General. I don’t know how anyone can support a party that looks and acts so much like something out of North Korea. :ponder: But they do.

As for road names, people have largely disassociated words like Zhongzheng from the Generallissimo himself. I’m not really a fan of having a memorial to a dictator in downtown Taipei, but given how tumultuous history lessons are in this part of the world, perhaps without the memorial we would forget entirely that Chiang even played a role in China’s and Taiwan’s modern development. I just hope the building is viewed through the proper context: a memorial to that period of history, not to the man who perpetrated it.

20

I can assure you it isn’t for the most part, especially by visitors.

Didn’t know the party still refers to CKS as the Eternal Director-General. That is awesome is its staggeringly inaptness. :thumbsup:

Indeed, what is the monument to a dictator doing in a free city? It’s actually exceptionally rare to have any monuments to authoritarian leaders in countries that have made the transition to democracy.