Well, Let’s just say I’d take your words for it…
Yes, point gained for you 
Feel good, isnt it? 
Good night
Flipper, I usually agree with your posts, but think you are missing something in this one. Of course Western values includes all of the sunday school morality and secular scandinavian individualism all wrapped up together nicely, but nobody is denying that there are dark sides, or consequences, to western values.
Rather, I think the discussion is about the differences between Western and Chinese family values… and I pointed out what I perceive to be the major difference… i.e., that the Chinese use filiel piety primarily while Westerners use marital fidelity primarily as a measurement of family values. Certainly, there are good results, as you have pointed out, that occur due to the adherance to Chinese family values. However, the assertions that antilogic is making regarding marital fidelity are, I believe, incorrect and unsubstantiated.
Specifically, I take issue with his opinion that “Westernization” of Taiwanese society is at fault for the rising rate of divorce and other so-called social ills.
I’m sorry you see it that way. Myself, I do not look down on the Chinese system… but I do differentiate it from my own, and I do see fit to rebut any assertions made with which I disagree.
I think plenty of people do speak up when they perceive unfair or inaccurate statements, whether they be about the locals or any foreigners.
Flipper, we’re all only human. Personally, I think this type of frank and forward discussion is good for everyone. I think antilogic has been very much game in debating with so many adversaries, and I think everyone has been fair, if not friendly, with antilogic. I think we’re all benefitted, rather than harmed, by this sort of discussion.
Peace 
Top post, Tigerman.
Yeah, I hate that too. But just because the religious right claim “family values” as their own, doesn’t mean we need concede them that point. I grew up in a very tolerant, cultured millieu. My parent’s friends were from all kinds of races, religious traditions, even different sexual orientations. I grew up viewing this kind of diversity as normal. It’s important that we don’t let the religious right claim the high ground here.
Of course you’re right. There is a dark side. But then again it’s the Chinese that claim “Family Values” as a virtue that sets the Chinese apart from other cultures - at least that’s what I hear over and over again, which was the point of starting this thread, I guess. I dispute that cliche. When Chinese people say that “face” is very improtant to them, I agree. When they say that education is a priority in Chinese culture, I agree, even if my idea of the importance of a liberal arts education has no place in their phiosophy. When they say that family comes first, I am sceptical. I just don’t see it. Whether or not my culture is beter or not is not my point. I am saying categorically, that when it comes to “Family Values”, Chinese culture is not better, or remarkable, or enviable.
Of course, it might also be due in part to the fact that they would not be allowed to immigrate to the US if they were unable to prove that they had the means to provide for themselves. Family values do not necessarily factor into the equation.
I agree. Many Chinese people live in very close physical proximity to each other. They also often take care of their older parents. Often it is out of a sense of duty and obligation rather than love. Remember the singer Yuki (Xu Huayu)had to go public when she was criticized because she had a grandfather living in abject poverty? Everybody was very “Tsk, tsk” until she went before the cameras and said that the old man had basically sent two of her aunts into the sex industry and verbally and physically abused many of the women in her family. I got the idea that there was more that she wasn’t saying, but it seemed to me there was a possibility of sexual abuse as well. Yuki said that the old man would not get a nickel from her. God bless her. And still the Legislative Assembly wants to make it legally mandatory to look after one’s parents or grandparents. More duty and obligation. 
I figure if the old people haven’t earned the love and respect that would give them security in their old age, then maybe they should be society’s burden rather than just the childrens’. Probably the children have suffered long enough without having to bear the indignity of being responsible for the old bastards.
I agree, and I hate affirmative action too, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they all have great families. A Lexus and an engineering degree aren’t the only measures of success.[/quote]
[quote=“Flipper”]like most other threads, this one is about white westerners looking down at the locals with their inferior value systems.[/quote]But it doesn’t have to be perceived that way. I wanted to challenge the (Chinese) assertion that their culture places special emphasis (above and beyond other cultures) on family values. How can one disprove that assertion without commenting on what one feels are negative (inferior) characteristics of family life. If I said that I felt that Chinese culture was equal to western culture in every aspect I’d be lying. I do know that the west does not have the answer to ever question and that Chinese culture does have elements of great value. I just don’t think “Chinese Family Values” is one of those elements. Peace out.
no, your posts have been pretty objective, tigerman. but this thread was started with an article about some idiot who was ashamed his mother contracted HIV and then was extrapolated into a “this is why chinese culture is bad” thread.
like all “western culture is great” threads, i feel there’s less objective comparison than there should be and much more one-sided rant. perhaps this particular thread was not the best one for me to go off on since it’s not nearly as bad as the ones from before.
as for the generalizations that occur on this board, perhaps i’m a mite more sensitive seeing as how i’m taiwanese. while “chinese are dirty”, “chinese are dishonest”, and “chinese are greedy” can be qualified with personal anecdotes and a claim of truth through observation, i feel that people really give a free pass to this type of stuff on here. the only people i’ve seen who bother to post retorts are unfortunately people like abcguy who made himself the topic.
i would think that if i posted lines like “hispanics are dirty”, “blacks are lazy”, or “jews are sneaky” it would not stand at all. but for some reason, by targeting chinese, it all seems so easily rationalized.
gee, just when i go off on my “this thread is one-sided” spiel, both tigerman and maoman post very well written objective pieces. i’m just gonna go save my indignation for another thread in the future that isn’t quite as well laid out. 
Thanks Flipper. That is food for thought. You’re right about the “free pass” business. And I’m equally guilty because I skate on the edge of this sentiment quite often. I apologize for any times when I’ve gone too far. I like to provoke thought, but personally, I’m going to endeavour to be a little more reflective. I think as a mod, I also need to be aware of the turns that discussions take. I like Open Forum to be freewheeling, but maybe those of us who call Segue “home” need to do a little more in terms of challenging the idiots. Thanks for keeping us (me) on our toes. I lift my beer glass to you. 
Most of the Taiwanese females I know of married the bloke they were dating very quickly. My sister dated her husband for a few years before marrying.
My best friend dated a girl for 2 years, they started to cohabit after that and got married, when they decided to have kids.
You’re right, i concede that 
. It’s probably different in southern italy or greece, but not in northern europe, which is my primary reference frame.
Well, marriage is taken seriously in most cultures - even in Scandinavia, where people are very open-minded. As a matter of fact, the far majority of Scandinavian children grow up living with both biological parents. A lasting commitment does not always have to be written down in order to be upheld. When I say advanced, I mean that the changes and pressures the modern world has brought on family structures, a succesful system for coping with the problems have been set up.
As a matter of fact a legal way of dealing with cohabitation existed in Denmark 400 years ago. It stated that a woman, which had been living with a man under one roof for at least 3 years and “had been carrying the keys of the house” (sic) was to be considered his legal wife and enjoy all legally stipulated rights.[/quote]
Adding in, the Chinese family system served the population well, when Taiwan was an agraian society, where you could only count on your family. It is working less well now and changes are made - even though those changes are too slow for some and to fast for others. But that’s an inavoidable consequence of modernization and they are hard to change. How society deals with those changes in the family structure is far more important that pointing fingers at each other. Strong points are evident in both the traditional Chinese system and in the contemporary scandinavian one.
Is that really so??? Ever since I hooked up with my Chinese husband I’ve always (almost always given him my checks! His father has always controlled the finances and everyone in the family knows that the reason my mil hasn’t divorced him is that she’d get nothing–or maybe that’s changing now.
[quote=“antilogic”]All of your arguments so far are solely based on personal accounts and assumptions. And that is no way to make a valid causal claim. (See my previous post)
All your posts have served to show is how prejudicial you are. Insofar as the opinions are unequivocally expressed, little evidence (other than personal accounts) and statistics are presented to back them up.[/quote]
It might just be a “personal account” if I knew about one guy in Taiwan that cheated on his wife, but I’ve got so many personal accounts they’ve crossed over and become evidence. My partner’s Taiwanese boss has a mistress. His wife lives in the States most of the time (nice Chinese family value right there). When he flies back to Taiwan, he’ll lie to his mother he got back “last night” (lying, my favorite Chinese family value) when he’s actually been back a week already, in bed with his mistress. And that’s just the tip of the iceberg of the many Chinese family values I hear of. All of my partner’s friends are cheating on their wives. I know of four married men (and all in their mid-40s, so much for your theory on Western media corrupting the youth of Taiwan) with children who are fooling around with other men. Here’s a group of about 10 men, ten beautiful examples of “Chinese family values” who are most likely picking up some very filliel crabs and veneral warts as we speak–and that’s without even having to work on digging up evidence, antilogic.
I believe I said an Asian would rarely admit their home life sucks to a stranger taking a poll, let alone a foreign pollster. And I’m telling ya, as a non-local who has lived in and studied Asia for more than 3 decades, it ain’t overgeneralizing.
I have a good friend, he’s in the skin care business, his wife is a nurse. And his wife is beautiful! REALLY. And yet my friend goes out drinking every night with his buds chasing stupid bar girls and bedding them when he can. WHY? I don’t understand this value?
Is it that Asian men feel it is macho to play the field this way?
Or is it that they don’t know what real love is?
Or is it that they are men who never matured past the age of 13?
I mean, they meet a girl, and the first thing they say to her, out loud, is what’s your cup size? Is this mature behavior?
If only everyone could enter into a debate with such good humour:
taking a sip of water
No surrender!! Surrender is not an option Just trying to find more data on the web here. (My next attempt would be to associate single-parenting with child neglect:D)[/quote]
[quote=“antilogic”]Well, Let’s just say I’d take your words for it…
Yes, point gained for you Feel good, isnt it?
Good night[/quote]
Makes the discussion flow a lot more easily.
I guess I would caricature the differences between Western and Chinese family values in the following way. In the West, high income levels have allowed individuals to break free from the more suffocating aspects of a large extended family - obligations to support older family members in their dotage, duties to the patriarch, collective responsibilities for debts, loveless marriages, etc.
Nevertheless, at the root of some of antilogic’s concerns is the fact that at some point pursuing the freedom of the individual does conflict with the support structure that a family can offer… this is most obvious I guess when it comes to bringing up kids. So much so, that many Western families start to PAY for what you could label “surrogate grandmother services,” which is what a nanny is, after all.
In the West, the family is becoming an industry. And this trend can only increase as people marry later in life and have kids later in life, because the older members of the extended family will not be around any longer.
But again, I would stress that these differences are not simply due to Western or Eastern values, so much as they are a reflection of trends in family structures and individual freedoms brought about (somewhat slowly) by rising income levels.
And, finally, given that there is an accelerating tendency in places like Japan for women to put off marriage and to start and pursue careers, the original question in the post may start to become irrelevant over time. We may not have a choice about whether we pursue Western values or Eastern values. Most of us may be forced to accept some version of the former.
A strong point about the family values as lived out here is that they enable us men to fool around as much as we like. Anyone for a trip to Shanghai?