Antilogic Quote "You’re jumping to conclusion too quickly. I think we need to know the population sizes and sample sizes in order to make any sense out of the figures, dont you think?
Let me give you a quick example. A country with one married couple who happen to be satified with their marriage would come out with 100% satisfication rate… So I’m afraid the figure does not really tell us anything, don’t you think?"
Complete balderdash.
[quote=“antilogic”]You’re jumping to conclusion too quickly. I think we need to know the population sizes and sample sizes in order to make any sense out of the figures, dont you think?
Let me give you a quick example. A country with one married couple who happen to be satified with their marriage would come out with 100% satisfication rate… So I’m afraid the figure does not really tell us anything, don’t you think?[/quote]
You do not have a case.
These are all large countries with more than one married couple! Your sample size argument is a little ridiculous. The sample size was substantial in all countries - it was a joint survey done to make just such a comparison. See ipss.go.jp/English/R_S_P/No.9_P195.pdf for details
There ARE higher marriage rates in Japan and Korea than in the US. BUT this is the WHOLE POINT OF LITTLEIRON’S CONTENTION, THAT IS:
EASTERN FAMILY VALUES FORCE PEOPLE TO STAY IN LOVELESS MARRIAGES
So, you would end up with precisely this result - more marriages in Japan and South Korea than in the US and a higher rate of satisfaction in the US.
I think the argument fits the statistics very well.
[quote=“imyourbiggestfan”]
Gotta be kidding - LAtin America? [/quote]
[b]Source: National Criminal Justice Reference Service (Department of Justice, USA)
Runaway/Throwaway children-- National estimates and characteristics:[/b]
I quote, “the estimated number of runaway/thrownaway children, nearly 1.7 million, is large both in absolute terms and in relation to previous estimates of the size of the problem.”
[quote=“antilogic”][quote=“imyourbiggestfan”]
Gotta be kidding - LAtin America? [/quote]
[b]Source: National Criminal Justice Reference Service (Department of Justice, USA)
Runaway/Throwaway children-- National estimates and characteristics:[/b]
I quote, “the estimated number of runaway/thrownaway children, nearly 1.7 million, is large both in absolute terms and in relation to previous estimates of the size of the problem.”[/quote]
My problem was not with the fact that it happens in the US (and in large numbers) but with your implication that this made it a developed economy problem. I was merely pointing out that there is a huge problem in poor nations, too.
You do not now respond to any of the points about Eastern family values trapping (mainly women) in loveless marriages, despite your call for statistics and ridiculing of Littleiron’s argument. Now that you have the stats (from much larger, more robust surveys than the little one you produced), do I take it that you are willing to concede the point?
[quote=“antilogic”]
Yes, it’s bad. That is a clear sign of irresponsbility (esp. when kids are involved), Sharky. What would happen to the children if the couples decide to break up? Who’s gonna pay the alimony?
By not committing themselves to marriage, they are basically saying that they reserve the right to avoid any responsbility associated with marriage and the right to walk out on their “families.” At least that’s the way I interpret it.[/quote]
Blah blah blah blah, antilogic is truly living up to his name.
No. It’s not a sign of any of that sort. Alimony? Our way of dealing with deadbeat dads works, as the government acts as a middle man. The kids get the support the court has entitled them to from the government, which then gets the money out of the deadbeat dad. If he doesn’t pay up, they deduct the money from his paycheck. A marriage license has nothing to do with that.
As a matter of fact, most divorces in Denmark are initiated by the female in the relationship. So are most breakups of long-term relationships with/without children. Cohabiting couples are more likely to break up than married ones, but the presence of children is actually more important then the presence of a marriage license. But then the structure of our society enables us to handle a more advanced family structure - I wonder how it would work out in Taiwan.
I do know of one couple, who got married when their children were in their thirties - having lived together continously form those children were born.
I believe that the slightly higher divorce rate in many western countries is related to the fact that westeners ar emore concerned with the success of the relationship - not with societal pressure mainly bearing down on the wife. If your marriage doesn’t work and counselling doesn’t help, you in general end the misery instead of staying together for the kids/parents/clans/society’s sake.
Oops, double posting.
taking a sip of water 
No surrender!! Surrender is not an option 
Just trying to find more data on the web here. (My next attempt would be to associate single-parenting with child neglect:D)
Tigerman, I’m 24… I can tell you that none of the kids I grew up with ever talked about their father’s “other” family or mistress, as I recall. This kind of problem is not commonplace for my generation (it’s more common for younger generations I think). I’m not sure where you got the impression that “mistress problem” is prevalent in Taiwanese society (mind quoting your data for me?). To be honest, I think you’ve been brainwashed by the Taiwanese media.
[quote=“antilogic”]
Tigerman, I’m 24… I can tell you that none of the kids I grew up with ever talked about their father’s “other” family or mistress, as I recall. This kind of problem is not commonplace for my generation (it’s more common for younger generations I think). I’m not sure where you got the impression that “mistress problem” is prevalent in Taiwanese society (mind quoting your data for me?). To be honest, I think you’ve been brainwashed by the Taiwanese media.[/quote]
Oh yeah?
I know of at least one friend, whose wife is the daugher of the “second wife” of a major businessman.
No, cheating on the wife is not common here. Neither is going to KTV’s binguans with rooms on hourly charge, barber shops etc. You’ll hardly ever see any of them around here. Moreover, no Taiwanese male will ever show you pictures of his mistresses, and the guys, who have done that to me were lying.
As the old adage goes, “birds of a feather flock together”… Now we all know what kind of bird you are
Good for you… Hanging out with the Mafia type 
[quote=“antilogic”]
As the old adage goes, “birds of a feather flock together”… Now we all know what kind of bird you are [/quote]
No, whities like myself usually stay away from that.
[quote=“antilogic”]
Good for you… Hanging out with the Mafia type [/quote][/quote]
No. Very legitimate, very known, and currently very old.
That explains alot. 
So, if it is hush hushed, it doesn’t exist? :?
Look, I’ve been here since 1985. I’ve seen some things. Apparently, if I told you all that went down, it’d burn off both your ears.
It is common knowledge in Taiwan that men who can afford to keep a mistress often do so. The problem is so acute in China that China has passed legislation to protect Chinese second wives to Taiwanese businessmen there. And now Taiwanese women are pressing for legislation in Taiwan to protect them and their children in the event that their Taiwanese husband takes a mistress or second wife in China. The new proposal that Taiwan marriages be registered is part of that legislative push in Taiwan. As an American attorney married to a Taiwanese woman, I cannot tell you how very frequently friends of my wife’s family come to me seeking advice on how to deal with their adulterous husbands who hold all the financial cards. Yes, this is personal experience… but when the Taiwanese and even foreign news media are picking up on the story and the Taiwanese legislature is debating the problem, I think you appear rather ignorant implying that there is no mistress problem in Taiwan!
For your reference, the following quotes were excerpted from the following cite:
Alien’s right. Keep in mind that unilateral divorces are not easily granted here - it’s very common for a cheating husband to refuse to divorce his wife, or threaten to take the children, knowing that judges traditionally prefer placing children with the father’s family.
Ha! Me too!
Maybe many Asian couples have lower expectations? I have heard many women here say that if their husband has a mistress, well, bu rang wo zhidao jiu hao… (As long as he doesn’t let me know about it, it’s ok)
Just because you can’t relate to what others have experienced, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Also, one can go to church without being a “bible-thumper” especially if you’re concerned about personal spiritual growth and instilling values in children in a way that Buddhism and Daoism certainly don’t. This idealized western culture does exist despite your claims to the contrary - at least in its idealized form, and it’s something good for us to aspire to. I don’t see a parallel over here. 
Sorry antilogic, on the issue of marital fidelity in Taiwan, I agree 100% with Tigerman and Mr. He. Of the hundred or so Taiwanese men I know, a scant few don’t have women on the side. I’m not judging. Just stating a fact. Most of my younger Taiwanese friends, particularly females, have a hard time accepting this as fact. I think it is pretty easy to understand why they are kept in the dark. Is dad really going to explain his nocturnal activities to his daughter, or his young son?
Still, my girlfriend is Taiwanese and your age, and she fully understands that many of her “uncles” have both wives and girlfriends, “uncles” being men her father does business with.
The argument that someone who associates with people who have affairs has the same set of ethics is specious, to use your words. If I stayed away from people who cheat on their wives, I would be largely unable to find people to be friends with in Taiwan.
Well, chaps i think you did a pretty good job of putting Antilogic right.
Back to the original thread. I will have to say that Wifey’s family is far closer than mine (UK), which i do find nice. She’s from Chia-Yi and still sends a fair wack of her salary back to her mother each month and stays in daily phone contact with all her siblings.
[quote=“Mark0938”]Well, chaps i think you did a pretty good job of putting Antilogic right.
Back to the original thread. I will have to say that Wifey’s family is far closer than mine (UK), which i do find nice. She’s from Chia-Yi and still sends a fair wack of her salary back to her mother each month and stays in daily phone contact with all her siblings.[/quote]
Must be a Chiayi thing 
My wife is from Chiayi and our finances are confusingly commingled with her sister’s and mother’s… and they are on the telephone with each other all the freaking time!
Well, why do you think that courtship is strangely long in eastern culture?? Isn’t that what dating, courtship are for?? Getting to know one another?
Skipping dating and courtship and just going for the cohabiting route What an ingenious idea That only tells me you’re treating your relationships like “experiments”, doesn’t it?
[quote]No. It’s not a sign of any of that sort. Alimony? Our way of dealing with deadbeat dads works, as the government acts as a middle man. The kids get the support the court has entitled them to from the government, which then gets the money out of the deadbeat dad. If he doesn’t pay up, they deduct the money from his paycheck. A marriage license has nothing to do with that.
As a matter of fact, most divorces in Denmark are initiated by the female in the relationship. [/quote]
Thanks for the lesson. However, I don’t think that’s the case for all western countries, isnt it?
Ahhh… the Brave New World.
No offense intended. But what you called “advanced family structure” (same thing applied to the ‘mistress’ situation in Taiwan as well) kinda reminds me of something I saw on the Discovery channel tho 
A herd of camels travels in group, taking care of one another, exchanging partners from time to time (ok, I would leave out the details). I guess the idea of raising someone else’s stock as one’s own just doesn’t suit us well (yes, we’re narrow-minded), and we take joy in knowing that someone has committed his/her entire life to us.
Is that the world you wish to live in?? Certainly not me. I think a stable relationship entails certain commitments. How can you say someone really love you when she tells you straight in the face that she is gonna press the eject button at first sign of trouble (“I’m not gonna marry you, so I can save myself trouble of divorcing later?”)? Marriage is a show of committment. If you’re not ready to committ, there is this thing called “dating”/“courtship” for you.
I wonder what it says about Chinese values that people here keep finances separate? Or rather the woman keeps her income separate, while the man’s income is used to pay for his personal expenditures as well as everything of common interest (mortgage, groceries, savings, etc.) At least that’s the way it is in my household, and I ain’t even married yet! 
Don’t most spouses in the west have joint chequing and savings accounts? :? That seems to me to be the better way. Couples have shared goals and aspirations - it only makes sense that they pool their resources to achieve those goals, no?
i agree that an idealized concept of values is a great goal to aspire to, what i find disturbing is packaging it all as traditional western values and then using perceived asian deficiencies as a foil. if you scan western media, it’s very plain to see that traditional values are almost always invoked by the religious right. church on sunday, no premarital sex, homosexuality is a sin, etc. on the other hand, the secular liberals have developed their own set of values completely counter to the religious and restrictive “leave it to beaver” school of thought.
it’s unfair that you would arbitrarily glean all the good from any sets of western values and then put that up against everything bad you can glean from “chinese values.” i mean you have sunday school morality and secular scandinavian individualism all wrapped up together nicely as western values. it’s as if there are no dark sides to western values at all.
i know no taiwanese american adults in the us on welfare or unemployment. due in both part to the great shame it would bring to their family and to the willingness of family to help out to an extent beyond what a western family would. the only taiwanese elderly i know who live in senior citizens homes are those who require direct medical supervision unattainable outside of a specialized facility. i know FAR more taiwanese/asian families in which the grown adults live with and take care of their elderly parents than western families. because of the insane emphasis taiwanese/asian parents place on education, taiwanese americans are one of the most successful ethnic groups in the united states today. so much so that they are hurt far more by affirmative action in college admissions than whites.
but this isn’t a thread to discuss the merits and deficiencies of different value systems. like most other threads, this one is about white westerners looking down at the locals with their inferior value systems. it is sad that people post dribble like “chinese culture teaches children to be liars and cheaters” and all the white expats on here just nob and read on. of course we HAVE to generalize when we discuss this type of stuff, right?
yes, the locals do this when they preach to you as well. but by returning the favor, you just stoop to their level.
Top post, Flipper.
First you stated:
Then you stated:
Are you now admitting that there IS a “mistress problem” in Taiwan?