I still haven’t read the judgment… … but I am having a difficult time understanding that this was a good decision.
The fact that the Hes stayed away for 4 months is easily explained, and IMO, justified by the circumstances.
I dealt with many many Chinese immigrants back in the States and nearly all of them were lying about something to the INS (sorry, its true). However, acid_drop is correct, again IMO, to point out the cultural differences and the fact that the same do not necessarily mean that the Hes would be poor parents.
However, I think acid_drop is way off base if he really believes that there was some fundamentally racist component to the system and or the judgment. There is no reason to think the Tennessee Court should have any understanding of Chinese customs… they dealt with the case from their own natural bias (which we all have) and decided most likely on the standard… “best interest of the child”.
I’ll find time to read the judgment and see if my preliminary opinion changes.
I believe The parents are from PRChina, not ROChina.
tigerman,
Having dealt with many PRC immigrants on a personal and professional level in the USA. I too know that the entire immigration process is pretty much one big political gambit for PRC citizens. With 1/3 of all naturalize citizen coming from the PRC now. There is just a whole spectrum of people trying to qualify for permenant residency status in the USA from PRC. Good, bad and the ugly.
I never stated the system was outright racist. But the if the individuals are all bias with the same sterotypes of China and Chinese people, the system could be innately against the He’s, through no fault of their own. So certain cultural and social cues might be interpreted in a negative light when they are in fact positive displays by the individual.
Having never experienced the TN court system. I cannot attest to its bias or unbias nature. Other websites infer that that legal circle in TN is a small group, than what I usually deal with in NYC, and that there could have been conflict of interest in many instances. As with Jack He first case of sexual misconduct agianst U of Memphsi that lasted 4 years. Jack inadvently hired his first lawyer that had close ties with the U of Memphis and might have had a conflict of interest in representing Mr. He.
But I do know this, the trail has dragged on for 5 years, 2 judges, and 4 lead counsels.
Read the report and form your own opinion. The appeal is already being filed.
I haven’t even read the judgement in full, so am reserving judgement I seriously doubt racism is a factor, although cultural issues might be.
I notice you don’t mention ‘yellow’ in your list of colours - so you would care if they were Asian-Americans then? And you’ve mentioned they were Taiwanese twice so far. Despite your obvious desire to bash Taiwanese people, they were CHINESE citizens, as in, People’s Republic Of. Get it right. Oh, but wait, they’re ALL child abusers aren’t they? What difference does it make what country they’re from?
Whatever, just get your facts right.
Edited to add: I see I’ve posted at the same time as and with overlapping content to ac_d. That disturbs me
[quote]Actually, it sounds to me like the Bakers value love for their adopted daughter more than money. Is that a difficult concept for you to understand?
[/quote]
Ac_dribbles has stated many times on these boards that money is the most important motivating factor in his life, so yes, I believe he really does find this a difficult concept to understand.
[quote=“tigerman”]I still haven’t read the judgment… … but I am having a difficult time understanding that this was a good decision.
[/quote]
Tigerman, all I can say is: read the judge’s decision. This case is a good example of truth being stranger than fiction. I will concede that there are a few places in the document that show a bit of cultural bias, but the judge’s decision did not hinge on any of these parts of the case. Another problem I saw with the trial was how language was handled and viewed by the judge. This worked for and against He/Luo. Working against He/Luo, the judge seemed to imply in his decision that Ms. Luo was somehow deceitful because she preferred to rely on a certified court interpreter at trial even though some witnesses had said that she could communicate just fine in English. The judge didn’t come right out and say that she was deceitful because she used an interpreter, but he implied it. I thought that was unfair; in immigration court, all non-native English speakers are encouraged to use an interpreter if they have the slightest doubts about there lanaguage proficiency. However, I don’t think this makes the ruling unsafe.
In favor of He/Luo, the judge allowed Jack He to interpret for Luo in certain parts of the trial because Luo was more comfortable with that. That is an absolute nono. Jack He is not a trained court interpreter, but more importantly, he is not neutral. He could filter Luo’s testimony if she were to slip and say something damaging to their case. I know this is not allowed in US immigration courts. It is also not allowed in Hong Kong. I’m not saying that all certified court interpreters in the States or HK are great, but they are at least neutral and have no reason to help a witness filter his or her testimony.
I know the judge’s decision is long, but I wish posters would take the time to read it before taking sides. Every assertion in the decision is not perfect, but I believe that the judge was correct in his decision to leave the girl with the Bakers. I was actually looking forward to Tigerman or other legal brains giving us some informed commentary on the decision. I find it a bit disappointing that a lawyer would give an opinion (albeit a somewhat qualified one) on the case before having read the decision. Nevertheless, Tigerman, I’d still like to know what you think after you’ve had time to read it.
[quote=“tigerman”]I still haven’t read the judgment… … but I am having a difficult time understanding that this was a good decision.
[/quote]
Yes, yes… I fully intend to read it. When I first tried to read it I couldn’t open it and I’ve been busy since then. I did qualify my opinion… twice… once saying that I still haven’t read the judgment and again saying merely that I am having difficulty understanding the decision based on the reports.
My main point at this stage (pre judgment review) is that I believe that there had better be very compelling reasons for any court to take away a child from its natural parents.
I’ll read the judgment and comment on the same asap.
Did the Court decision mention at all about the He’s attitudes regarding their daughter’s future choice of a marriage partner? In other words, would she be absolutely required to get married, or could she entertain the option of staying single? Would her parents pick out the groom, or would the daughter have any say in it? What about during the time when the daughter is not yet married and working at some job in the local community? Would the money she earns belong to her, or would she be expected to give it 100% to the parents?
I think that these kinds of issues need to be explored in order to better understand the He’s views toward childraising.
Read the thing and have to say I agree with the court decision, with one small question. While I think the Hes should not have custody of the child, now and probably not ever, I’m not entirely sure I agree with the termination of parental rights. I don’t know what this means exactly but my guess would be no visitation, and no right to reclaim custody, ever. The way the situation stood, couldn’t the court simply refuse a petition for custody from the Hes, and go on refusing it? I think they’re pretty scummy people from the judgement, but I don’t know if they’ve been evil enough, for instance, to lose the right to see their daughter ever again. I don’t really understand exactly what “parental rights” means as opposed to “custody” - wouldn’t mind someone explaining it.
I don’t base my opinion on the history of fraud or criminality, scary as that is, but on two main points. Firstly, the length, frequency and character of visitation (particularly the lack of connection between parent and child) and secondly that the Hes had another child, and kept him, before even bothering to reclaim the first one.
Also, there’s fairly obviously conflict between the two parents. Mrs He seems to have a slightly stronger desire to have kept her, but has been overruled by Mr He at every turn. I still don’t think she’s a fit parent under the circumstances, but if she’d “married” someone else the situation might have been different. IMO Mr He really couldn’t give a damn about the kid except as a pawn in his little games.
I think there could be a slight cultural bias in terms of what is considered acceptable parental behaviour, but I also think the Hes passed those limits a while back.
Everybody is talking about now, but what about in the future. When the girl is 14 or 15 and finds out that she was not adopted, but stolen by two people from her parents. What will the courts do then. What will she do?
What if she declares at that age, that she is Chinese, not American and wants to return to her homeland. A more interesting situation would be if she would run to a Chinese embassy or consulate and ask to go home. What would the U.S. do then?
Personnally, I believe that the future should be considered. If the parents were dead or didn’t fight to get her back, then I would understand.
There is even a more compelling picture that I think that hasn’t been brought up. There has been drug addicts winning back their children from foster parents because they proved they were no longer on drugs. But these people don’t even come close. Is it because the foster parents have more money?
Yes Cipos, what about the future? Her parents turned her over to foster care because they were having financial troubles once. What happens when they return to China? Farm her out as a prostitue so she can help pay for her younger brother’s college education? Granted her life might not be the greatest in the U.S. but at least she is more likely to have the chance at a good life. Personally I cringe at the thought of her being raised by a religious nut but then again I still think it’s better than the alternative. And I think every teenager in America knows how to contact social services if there are any problems at home. Something I doubt she’d be able to do in China (of course I may be wrong).
You said…“When the girl is 14 or 15 and finds out that she was not adopted, but stolen by two people from her parents. What will the courts do then. What will she do?”
Well first I take issue with the word ‘stolen’…did they steal her from the playground, did they steal her from bedroom? No, her loving caring parents decided they wanted to save some money so they voluntarily turned her over for temporary foster care. Unfortunately they weren’t very bright and they lost their daughter through legal manipulations. Tough, if they hadn’t offered her into foster care then they wouldn’t have lost her. So the girl will never find out she was stolen because she wasn’t…but just out of curiousity who would tell her something like this? Her adoptive parents? I doubt it, why should they?
Who says her parents are religious nuts? Being a Christian does not make one a nut or a “Jesus-Freak”. It doesn’t even mean you are an evangelical out to save souls. There are lots of Christians out there who lead quiet, exemplary lives. Same goes for Jews, Muslims, and Buddhists. What’s with all the anti-Christian rhetoric? :s
Well after looking at this isthisamerica.com/evilisasevildoes.htm which says this “while they may attend church 3 times a week and hold Bible study at home,” and after living in Tennessee the two years before I moved here and being raised in the south, I stand by my conclusion that they are religious nuts. And this isn’t anti-Christian rhetoric…it is anti-Nut rhetoric
edited to add this…
“The Bakers are devout Baptists who believe they are doing “God’s work” according to the Commercial Appeal.”
I think that little Taiwanese girl deserves to be w/ her natural parents. That is the will of karma. I believe in the love of the peace of the hope. On my last trip to India, my guru taught me many things. To enlighten my soul, I now use a backpack wooven of pure hemp. Peace my fellow formosans. Just the evils of America are too much for the innocent minds of the Eastern Intellect. I just hope we can all get along. In need a hug.
Is that the post you all were looking for? Can I be your buddy now? Maybe we can get together and read some poetry and spend hours about how T.i.a.n.m.u. should be spelled… spelt… oh, my god. I made a spelling error. Don’t flame me, please… I want to be your friend… I wish I was Taiwanese… I’m so ashamed of my own race.
What does that line of question have to do with anything? The case did not touch upon the future of AHM and who she would marry.
Vannyel,
Prostitution? What are you talking about. What make you think she would have a better life in the USA in a pre-dominantly white community? The economy of the USA is falling. The PRC economy is rising.
As for her parents hiding the truth from her…If her parents ever let her go to college, the chinese american community will be more than happy to inform her. Or the day she decides to Google herself, she will read her history.
ac_dropout…what exactly does being in a predominately white community have to do with anything? How exactly will she benefit from living in a predominately Asian community?
Sure the economy of China is rising…give it another 50 years and every household in the country MIGHT have an indoor toilet.
Sorry ac_dropout, but no, not to my knowledge do the KKK have rallies in Tennessee. Of course I haven’t lived there for the past two years but then again when I was there I never heard or saw a KKK rally.
As for multi-cultural centers, well I don’t think Taipei is anymore a multi-cultural center than Memphis Tennessee however, Memphis, like the rest of the U.S., does have laws to protect people who are discriminated against…something Taipei doesn’t have or want. So what’s your point?
And what is this identity issue stuff…just because you are having problems doesn’t mean every person with an Asian heritage living in America has identity problems. My best friend was first-generation American, his parents were Korean. Yeah, I know, he looked Korean but it stopped there. He couldn’t speak Korean and I don’t think he even liked Korean food. And unlike you, I assume, he never even wanted to visit Korea. Why not? Well, duh, because he was American. Did he suffer because of it? Is he missing out on somthing because he isn’t in touch with his ‘roots.’ I don’t think so. Last I heard he’s making about $50,000 a year working for the department of defense, married with children. Seems content enough to live in the present without worrying about the past or a connection to a heritage far removed from the reality of his daily life.
I still think the little girl is much better off in U.S. than she would be in China. And as I said, her parents dumped her when things got tough once so what’s to stop them from doing it again especially now that they have TWO more children. Obviously a college degree doesn’t necessarily confer intelligence!
If you read my post carefully it is mirror of your post, each cultural assumptions is matched by my cultural assumption. That was my point. Cultural bias is what your support is based on.
Laws are made to restrict behavior. So perhaps the ROC never had race relations issues as bad as the USA and sees no need to have those type of laws. Most foriegners in the ROC are usually treated better than most minority immigrants in the USA in urban settings.
I think the point you are trying to make is that your Korean Friend like most who immigrate and assimilate into USA mainstream culture never felt it was neccessary to become fully bi-cultural. He lives a productive life. I’m just saying that as an Asian American that is fully bi-cultural, he might be missing out on something, just like AMH. I too have hit all the major milestones or life events usually associated with success and stability.
Or I could just look for 1 empercial case of an Asian adoptee that did not have such a bright adulthood to counter your claim. Woody Allen and daughter-wife Soong-Yi.
I further contend that with non-Asian parents AMH might have some issues that your Korean Friends might not have through the benefit of having Korean Parents raising him in the USA.
Well the Baker’s have 4 kids and now want a 5th. They nearly bankrupted themselves over the case. Took their daughter out of college. Sold family land. Thinks very low of China and perhaps even Chinese people. Yet want to raise a Chinese American daughter. Mr. Baker is a Mortgage Broker, the real estate market is quieting down since its peak 1 year ago…his income is bleak. Yada Yada.
… but I am having a difficult time understanding that this was a good decision.
I seriously doubt racism is a factor, although cultural issues might be.
… but I am having a difficult time understanding that this was a good decision.
and have to say I agree with the court decision, with one small question. While I think the Hes should not have custody of the child, now and probably not ever, I’m not entirely sure I agree with the termination of parental rights. I don’t know what this means exactly but my guess would be no visitation, and no right to reclaim custody, ever. The way the situation stood, couldn’t the court simply refuse a petition for custody from the Hes, and go on refusing it? I think they’re pretty scummy people from the judgement, but I don’t know if they’ve been evil enough, for instance, to lose the right to see their daughter ever again. I don’t really understand exactly what “parental rights” means as opposed to “custody” - wouldn’t mind someone explaining it.
