Christian Vultures Preying on Tsunami Victims

Discussion Open Forum
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[quote]Sri Lanka, Jan. 19 -A dozen Americans walked into a relief camp here, showering bereft parents and traumatized children with gifts, attention and affection. They also quietly offered camp residents something else: Jesus.

The Americans, who all come from one church in Texas, have staged plays detailing the life of Jesus and had children draw pictures of him, camp residents said. They have told parents who lost children that they should still believe in God, and held group prayers where they tried to heal a partly paralyzed man and a deaf 12year-old girl.

The attempts at proselytizing are angering local Christian leaders, who worry that they could provoke a violent backlash against Christians in Sri Lanka, a predominantly Buddhist country that is already a religious tinderbox.

Last year, Buddhist hard-liners attacked the offices of the World Vision Christian aid group and vandalized or threatened churches and pastors 75 times. They accuse Christians of using money and social programs to cajole and coerce conversions.

Most American groups, including those affiliated with religious organizations, strictly avoid mixing aid and missionary work. But scattered reports of proselytizing in Sri Lanka; Indonesia, which is predominantly Muslim; and India, with large Hindu and Muslim populations, are arousing concerns that the good will spread by the American relief efforts may be undermined by resentment. . .

In Indonesia last week, reports that a missionary group named WorldHelp planned to raise 300 Muslim tsunami orphans in a Christian children’s home in Jakarta brought an outcry from Muslims . . .

A Jan. 18 posting from the team in Indonesia says the country’s devastated Aceh Province is “ripe for Jesus!!”

“What an opportunity,” it adds. “It has been closed for five years, and the missionaries in Indonesia consider it the most militant and difficult place for ministry. The door is wide open and the people are hungry.”[/quote]
nytimes.com/2005/01/22/inter … &position=

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Jan 19? Sorry, it’s old, incorrect news.

[quote]Tsunami Orphans Won’t Be Sent to Christian Home

By Alan Cooperman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, January 14, 2005; Page A01

The Virginia-based missionary group WorldHelp has dropped its plans to place 300 Muslim “tsunami orphans” in a Christian children’s home, the group’s president, the Rev. Vernon Brewer, told news agencies yesterday. [/quote]

washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar … Jan13.html

BTW, if you want to be outraged, you can complain about about the thousands of Christian East Timorese children who were kidnapped from their homes in and brought to Java to be raised in [i]pesantren[/i]…Islamic boarding schools. The Indonesian government has refused to send them back and has told the UNHCR and East Timorese government to screw off.

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And BTW, if you are so worried about Christians giving aid to Muslims, perhaps you should read about what official Islam says about working with “infidels”…:

[quote]Question: Can zakah money be used to help tsunami-affected non Muslims or non Muslims in general?

Answer: It is strongly recommended to assist and donate as much as you can to all tsunami-affected people Muslims as well as non-Muslims.

However, as for zakah money, it should be only given to those people stated in the Qur’an (9: 60). They are designated as legitimate recipients of zakah. Having said that, the affected Muslims might fall under one of the recipients of zakah but for non-Muslims they would be only allowed to receive zakah if there is an indication that this would lead to their conversion to Islam, otherwise, they might be given any other donation but not zakah. [/quote]

islamonline.net/livefatwa/en … tID=ILSQ1z

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[quote=“Comrade Stalin”]And BTW, if you are so worried about Christians giving aid to Muslims, perhaps you should read about what official Islam says about working with “infidels”…:

[quote]Question: Can zakah money be used to help tsunami-affected non Muslims or non Muslims in general?

Answer: It is strongly recommended to assist and donate as much as you can to all tsunami-affected people Muslims as well as non-Muslims.

However, as for zakah money, it should be only given to those people stated in the Qur’an (9: 60). They are designated as legitimate recipients of zakah. Having said that, the affected Muslims might fall under one of the recipients of zakah but for non-Muslims they would be only allowed to receive zakah if there is an indication that this would lead to their conversion to Islam, otherwise, they might be given any other donation but not zakah. [/quote][/quote]
What’s zakah money?

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Also spelt “zakat.” A religious tax on one’s wealth (not income), the payment of which is a duty for Muslims.

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It’s not old and it’s not incorrect news. Apparently lots of Christian groups are excited about the tragedy in SE Asia, because they see it as a great opportunity to take advantage of vulnerable victims for their own personal motives. While they may be giving them rice or clothing or whatever, I find their glee over the ability to convert these desperate people despicable.

To me it’s not much different from those who are raping tsunami orphans or working tsunami financial scams. They’re flocking to Aceh not out of empathy and compassion and desire to assist, but out of a selfish desire to take advantage of people in their time of need because that’s when they are most vulnerable and can be coerced into things they might not accept in better circumstances. These missionaries are vile and exploitive.

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Does anyone really need an excuse to bash Christians, or Americans…or worse yet, Christian Americans?

It’s clear what the motives of faith-based charaties (or faith-based anything), and the people who defend them, are. Hopefully the people of Banda Aceh will use these motives against them. Milk 'em for all their worth, then tell them to fuck off.

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[quote=“axiom”]Does anyone really need an excuse to bash Christians, or Americans…or worse yet, Christian Americans?

It’s clear what the motives of faith-based charaties (or faith-based anything), and the people who defend them, are. Hopefully the people of Banda Aceh will use these motives against them. Milk 'em for all their worth, then tell them to fuck off.[/quote]

If you knew anything at all about Aceh you’d know the people there are thrilled to death the Americans are there. The people bitching are the imported Javanese. And guess what? Many of the people in Aceh are also not even Muslim! But hey! Don’t let your ignorance stop you. Maybe after you’ve been out of high school a few more years you’ll know a little better. :unamused:

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[quote=“Mother Theresa”]OK, CS, you’re familiar with Indonesia. I’m impressed. But if you go back and read my posts you’ll see I referred to Indonesia, Sri Lanka, India and South Asia.

Because you missed it the first three times, let me explain again: I don’t much care for those who travel about trying to convince others that they’ll burn in hell unless they read a certain book and accept certain beliefs. I find it even more objectionable when they say “sorry your village got wiped out, your mom and dad got washed away and now you’re living in this crappy refugee camp; but I’ll give you some food, pretend to be your friend, and save you from a life in hell if you read this book and accept my beliefs.”

It’s got nothing to do with Solo/Jagarubu or Maluku; it could just as well be in Timbuktu. It’s about taking advantage of those in desperate straits to impose ones will upon them.[/quote]

Really? The Christian aid groups are doing refusing to give aid unless people convert? Care to show us proof? I think you got that wrong. It’s the Muslim organizations that are forcing conversions. Just as they did in East Timor, Maluku and Sulewesi.

But I notice you say nothing about the Muslim terrorists moving in trying to recruit followers. You say nothing about Buddhist and Muslim missionaries. Your issues seem to rest entirely with anything connected with Christians and Americans. And you still haven’t said anything about the Christian children kidnapped from East Timor. After almost 6 years, they’re still being held in Java. What’s the matter? Persecution of Christians by Muslim Indonesians is ok while the [i]proposal[/i] to take in a few orphans by a Christian charity is objectionable to your fine sense of propriety?

And BTW, your strong opinions and utter lack of knowledge of Indonesia speaks volumes about you.

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I think if you read MT’s posts a little closer, you’d see the issue being discussed is a little broader than local knowledge of a particular part of Indonesia. Faith-based charities, like them or not, are a global phenomenon. They operate anywhere and everywhere. MT voiced displeasure over their methods and seems to back that position with sufficient reason. The opinion is not uninformed just because MT hasn’t been to the particular area mentioned in the news stories. His objections are with the methods and, as such, are not comments that one needs specific knowledge of a particular region to voice. Also, I’m sure that MT would likely be consistent enough in his position say any religious group–and not simply Christians–engaging in such tactics is commiting a morally repugnant act.

PS. Do you and MT (and possibly Tetsuo) have some negative history I don’t know about? Can we have a civil discussion, please?

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[quote=“Comrade Stalin”][quote=“axiom”]Does anyone really need an excuse to bash Christians, or Americans…or worse yet, Christian Americans?

It’s clear what the motives of faith-based charaties (or faith-based anything), and the people who defend them, are. Hopefully the people of Banda Aceh will use these motives against them. Milk 'em for all their worth, then tell them to fuck off.[/quote]

If you knew anything at all about Aceh you’d know the people there are thrilled to death the Americans are there. The people bitching are the imported Javanese. And guess what? Many of the people in Aceh are also not even Muslim! But hey! Don’t let your ignorance stop you. Maybe after you’ve been out of high school a few more years you’ll know a little better. :unamused:[/quote]

Was that supposed to be a reply to my post? If so, what the fuck are you talking about? Do you need to be a muslim to tell an American Christian to fuck off? Furthermore, did I mention anything about anyone being muslim? And what the hell is the need to make a distinction between people from Aceh and people from Java living in Aceh? Should we say “There are no Americans upset that Bush got reelected, only imported Europeans and Africans and Asians”…or, “There are no Taiwanese bitching about the threats that come from China, only imported FuJienese are”. Maybe after you’ve read up a little more on how to make sense or how to construct a real argument, you’ll know better. :unamused:

Finally, however, I’m still in High School, so I at least have an excuse to add an eyeroll to my conversations :unamused: .

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yeah why would there be a need for that? :astonished:

spot on :unamused:

:loco:

i’m not a fan of missionaries or organized religion in general but that’s outrageous. particularly the first sentence. a. they are helping in relief efforts b. in their minds they are trying to help people spiritually.

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I’ve experienced one of your grammar lessons bob, and I don’t mind speaking for all of us when I tell you bobism is buggered. It’s dead in the water and I’m not surprised given your lack of arms and legs. That has always made it difficult for you to get a firm grasp on any issue and to stand and defend your position like a man.

I wouldn’t be getting too excited about Christian groups delivering aid in Aceh. I’d be getting more excited about them not. What would you otherwise expect from a religous organization? Worrying about them converting people to Christianity is absurd. Churches and religions of all kinds will always be on the forefront of all aid delivery that is an expression of the human condition part of that will include their message.

Suggesting that people are not sophisticated enough, even in Aceh, to not be aware of that or somehow vulnerable to it is unreasonable. They will take the aid on offer and the message they can take it or leave it.

As for groups only offering aid under certain conditions, I kind of doubt that it would be very wide spread and where it does exist I’m sure it’s not an everything or nothing deal. Probably something along the lines of a kind of entertainment that will be seen as nothing more or nothing less.

Most of the conditions on aid will be coming from the Indonesian central government down the barrel of a gun and there are serious political concerns about religion in Indonesia between the Muslim majority and everybody else but that is something that should be combatted, not capitulated too.

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But there’s a definite difference between religious groups providing charity, and that naturally carrying their message, and those that provide charity and abuse the opportunity to deliberately seek out conversion opportunities. I fully believe that if a religious group, from any religion at all, is providing charity in a well-meaning, sincere way, that will do much more good for bringing people over to their side than pounding people over the head with scripture as they pick up their food packages.

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I don’t disagree, but you need to keep it in perspective. It is most likely some isolated incidents that has stuff all to do with the overall aid effort.

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So who is doing it?[/quote]
Evidently, the charities mentioned in the original post.

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So who is doing it?[/quote]
Evidently, the charities mentioned in the original post.[/quote]

You didn’t read the original post, did you? Now why don’t you go do that and then show us where it says missionaries are coercing people to convert in order to receive aid.

From the NYT article:

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[quote=“Bu Lai En”]
Are you suggesting that we refrain from commenting on anything that happens outside of places we’ve personally visited?[/quote]

Not at all (although having visited a place helps*)…but maybe spending an hour or 2 trying to familiarize oneself with a subject before commenting on it would help. I don’t comment on open heart surgery procedures (even if I’ve just read a short blurb in the Times) because I simply don’t know enough. Likewise, I don’t go into the ins and outs of sheepraising in Kyrgystan.

All of the countries involved in the tsunami disaster suffer from violent ethnic and religious disputes. Knowing nothing about the area and then shooting ones mouth off about an American Christian charity (and comparing them to child rapists) is stupid.

(*When you’ve gone home to the West do you ever have to suffer listening to people tell you how poor the Taiwanese are and how they work for only 50 cents a day? What’s the difference?)

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I suppose it depends on what one means by mention and specifically:

[quote=“Mother Theresa”]
Sri Lanka, Jan. 19 -A dozen Americans walked into a relief camp here . . . .

The Americans, who all come from one church in Texas. . . .

Disturbing stories from the region and fund-raising appeals from religious leaders in the US. . . .

A US Muslim group accused evangelist Jerry Falwell. . . . [/quote]

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So who is doing it?[/quote]
Evidently, the charities mentioned in the original post.[/quote]

You didn’t read the original post, did you? Now why don’t you go do that and then show us where it says missionaries are coercing people to convert in order to receive aid.[/quote]

And I quote:[quote]Jan. 18 posting from the team in Indonesia says the country’s devastated Aceh Province is “ripe for Jesus!!”

“What an opportunity,” it adds. “It has been closed for five years, and the missionaries in Indonesia consider it the most militant and difficult place for ministry. The door is wide open and the people are hungry.”[/quote]
A tsunami - hundreds of thousands of people dead, millions of lives devastated, and what’s the response? “WHAT AN OPPORTUNITY”.

The are taking advantage of human suffering to spread their religion. They are planning to proselytize to people who are in a weakened state due to a disaster. If that’s not coersion, I don’t know what is.

If they were truly good intentioned, they would refrain from attempts at conversion, and provide things the people need - food, shelter, medicine, and spiritual counseling according to the religion these people already have. If you want to convert people to your religion, do it with honesty and integrity, not slimeball tactics.

And as for the quote from the Jerry Falwell Ministries - I wouldn’t trust anything said by anyone connected to that great con-man Falwell. There are few in the world more slimy and deceitful than Fallwell.