Well, you are fast to forget all the reasons why there was/is a resentment between WSR and BSR. To tackle should be the first step, but that will take decades - or mass murdering…
But one also has to ask oneself is it real resentment or just political opportunitism. Because if it was real resentment would a BSR president try to use Ang Lee and Chien-Ming Wang for the TI cause.
[quote=“Feiren”]Sorry, here is a more complete statement of CSB’s position on ethnic relations at his inaugural relation. Basically the same, but more complete and eloquent.
[quote]It was several hundred years ago that the generations before us traversed the “Black-water Channel” (Taiwan Strait) or crossed the great ocean to find a safe haven in Taiwan. No matter what year they arrived, regardless of their ancestral origins and their mother tongues, even in spite of their different hopes and dreams, all are our forefathers; all have settled down here and together faced a common destiny. Whether indigenous peoples or “new settlers,” expatriates living abroad, foreign spouses or immigrant workers who labor under Taiwan’s blazing sun–all have made a unique contribution to this land and each has become an indispensable member of our “New Taiwan” family.
Various ethnic groups, because of their disparate history and distinctive subcultures, understandably hold divergent views and values. Recognizing such inherent differences, we should embrace one another with more tolerance and understanding. The authoritarian government of the past exploited inequality among different ethnic groups, suppressing native languages and cultures. Nonetheless, we must acknowledge that except for a few individuals in power, members of all ethnic groups have been victimized. The February 28 Incident and the “White Terror,” of which the victims include both the “Ben-sheng” (Taiwanese) and the “Wai-sheng” (Mainlanders), were not historical representations of subjugation by ethnic groups, rather, abuse of power by a ruling government.
The fabric of Taiwan society today is comprised mainly of diverse immigrant groups. It is not a minority-ruled colonial state; hence, no single ethnic group alone should undeservingly bear the burden of history. Presently, regardless of one’s birthplace–be it Guangdong or Taidong, regardless of the origin of one’s mother–be it Vietnam or Tainan, and regardless of whether an individual identifies with Taiwan or with the Republic of China, per se, a common destiny has bequeathed upon all of us the same parity and dignity. Therefore, let us relinquish our differentiation between native and foreign, and between minority and majority, for the most complimentary and accurate depiction of present-day Taiwan is of a people “ethnically diverse, but one as a nation.” A shared sense of belonging has become the common denominator among all the 23 million people of Taiwan.[/quote] [my emphasis][/quote]
Feiren you can’t be serious that you think that speech represents Chen’s true feelings? During the last election my wife used to go into fits when she heard Chen’s speeches in Taiwanese. He was delibertalely fanning hatred and divisiveness. The idea that Taiwan is for the ethnically Taiwanese was very much in the air 4 years ago and seemed very much part of the DPP’s message. My wife’s mother had to remind her relatives in Taichung that Hui Ming, her daughter, may be half WSR but she was also half BSR. And in any case did they really think she had no place in Taiwan?
ac is right, the division between bsr and wsr was pretty much over by the turn of the century. It was politicking to bring it back up last election which is why it is not much of an issue anymore except perhaps for the deep green. It just doesn’t resonate that much with most people. At least I hope it doesn’t.
Okay, I am contraducting myself a bit there. Perhaps the speech above does express Chen’s true feelings. But it don’t match the message he spread to get him into power.
I have been to many DPP rallies at which Chen has spoken in Taiwanese. I know that some people think they hear ethnic hatred in what he and the other DPP leadership say, but I honestly don’t. And yes I can understand the Taiwanese. I think we have to judge CSB on his public statements–what else can we go on? He’s definitely taken some cheap shots before as I mentioned earlier in the thread. So show me some quotes where you think he is fanning ethnic hatred, and we can discuss them.
What I think is that many WSR (including BSR/WSR who identify as WSR) are afraid because they find themselves living in a society that is very different from the one that they believed they lived in. Suddenly they find out that many Taiwanese don’t really like speaking Mandarin and have a very different view of Taiwan’s modern history than they do. I think its hard for people to accept and they project ethnic hatred onto manifestations of ethnic hatred. Sure there are Taiwanese bigots out there, but I really don’t think there are many, and I don’t think Chen is one of them.
[quote=“Muzha Man”][quote=“Feiren”]Sorry, here is a more complete statement of CSB’s position on ethnic relations at his inaugural relation. Basically the same, but more complete and eloquent.
[quote]It was several hundred years ago that the generations before us traversed the “Black-water Channel” (Taiwan Strait) or crossed the great ocean to find a safe haven in Taiwan. No matter what year they arrived, regardless of their ancestral origins and their mother tongues, even in spite of their different hopes and dreams, all are our forefathers; all have settled down here and together faced a common destiny. Whether indigenous peoples or “new settlers,” expatriates living abroad, foreign spouses or immigrant workers who labor under Taiwan’s blazing sun–all have made a unique contribution to this land and each has become an indispensable member of our “New Taiwan” family.
Various ethnic groups, because of their disparate history and distinctive subcultures, understandably hold divergent views and values. Recognizing such inherent differences, we should embrace one another with more tolerance and understanding. The authoritarian government of the past exploited inequality among different ethnic groups, suppressing native languages and cultures. Nonetheless, we must acknowledge that except for a few individuals in power, members of all ethnic groups have been victimized. The February 28 Incident and the “White Terror,” of which the victims include both the “Ben-sheng” (Taiwanese) and the “Wai-sheng” (Mainlanders), were not historical representations of subjugation by ethnic groups, rather, abuse of power by a ruling government.
The fabric of Taiwan society today is comprised mainly of diverse immigrant groups. It is not a minority-ruled colonial state; hence, no single ethnic group alone should undeservingly bear the burden of history. Presently, regardless of one’s birthplace–be it Guangdong or Taidong, regardless of the origin of one’s mother–be it Vietnam or Tainan, and regardless of whether an individual identifies with Taiwan or with the Republic of China, per se, a common destiny has bequeathed upon all of us the same parity and dignity. Therefore, let us relinquish our differentiation between native and foreign, and between minority and majority, for the most complimentary and accurate depiction of present-day Taiwan is of a people “ethnically diverse, but one as a nation.” A shared sense of belonging has become the common denominator among all the 23 million people of Taiwan.[/quote] [my emphasis][/quote]
Feiren you can’t be serious that you think that speech represents Chen’s true feelings? During the last election my wife used to go into fits when she heard Chen’s speeches in Taiwanese. He was delibertalely fanning hatred and divisiveness. The idea that Taiwan is for the ethnically Taiwanese was very much in the air 4 years ago and seemed very much part of the DPP’s message. My wife’s mother had to remind her relatives in Taichung that Hui Ming, her daughter, may be half WSR but she was also half BSR. And in any case did they really think she had no place in Taiwan?
ac is right, the division between bsr and wsr was pretty much over by the turn of the century. It was politicking to bring it back up last election which is why it is not much of an issue anymore except perhaps for the deep green. It just doesn’t resonate that much with most people. At least I hope it doesn’t.
Okay, I am contraducting myself a bit there. Perhaps the speech above does express Chen’s true feelings. But it don’t match the message he spread to get him into power.[/quote]
[quote=“Feiren”]I have been to many DPP rallies at which Chen has spoken in Taiwanese. I know that some people think they hear ethnic hatred in what he and the other DPP leadership say, but I honestly don’t. And yes I can understand the Taiwanese. I think we have to judge CSB on his public statements–what else can we go on? He’s definitely taken some cheap shots before as I mentioned earlier in the thread. So show me some quotes where you think he is fanning ethnic hatred, and we can discuss them.
What I think is that many WSR (including BSR/WSR who identify as WSR) are afraid because they find themselves living in a society that is very different from the one that they believed they lived in. Suddenly they find out that many Taiwanese don’t really like speaking Mandarin and have a very different view of Taiwan’s modern history than they do. I think its hard for people to accept and they project ethnic hatred onto manifestations of ethnic hatred. Sure there are Taiwanese bigots out there, but I really don’t think there are many, and I don’t think Chen is one of them.
[quote=“Muzha Man”][quote=“Feiren”]Sorry, here is a more complete statement of CSB’s position on ethnic relations at his inaugural relation. Basically the same, but more complete and eloquent.
[quote]It was several hundred years ago that the generations before us traversed the “Black-water Channel” (Taiwan Strait) or crossed the great ocean to find a safe haven in Taiwan. No matter what year they arrived, regardless of their ancestral origins and their mother tongues, even in spite of their different hopes and dreams, all are our forefathers; all have settled down here and together faced a common destiny. Whether indigenous peoples or “new settlers,” expatriates living abroad, foreign spouses or immigrant workers who labor under Taiwan’s blazing sun–all have made a unique contribution to this land and each has become an indispensable member of our “New Taiwan” family.
Various ethnic groups, because of their disparate history and distinctive subcultures, understandably hold divergent views and values. Recognizing such inherent differences, we should embrace one another with more tolerance and understanding. The authoritarian government of the past exploited inequality among different ethnic groups, suppressing native languages and cultures. Nonetheless, we must acknowledge that except for a few individuals in power, members of all ethnic groups have been victimized. The February 28 Incident and the “White Terror,” of which the victims include both the “Ben-sheng” (Taiwanese) and the “Wai-sheng” (Mainlanders), were not historical representations of subjugation by ethnic groups, rather, abuse of power by a ruling government.
The fabric of Taiwan society today is comprised mainly of diverse immigrant groups. It is not a minority-ruled colonial state; hence, no single ethnic group alone should undeservingly bear the burden of history. Presently, regardless of one’s birthplace–be it Guangdong or Taidong, regardless of the origin of one’s mother–be it Vietnam or Tainan, and regardless of whether an individual identifies with Taiwan or with the Republic of China, per se, a common destiny has bequeathed upon all of us the same parity and dignity. Therefore, let us relinquish our differentiation between native and foreign, and between minority and majority, for the most complimentary and accurate depiction of present-day Taiwan is of a people “ethnically diverse, but one as a nation.” A shared sense of belonging has become the common denominator among all the 23 million people of Taiwan.[/quote] [my emphasis][/quote]
Feiren you can’t be serious that you think that speech represents Chen’s true feelings? During the last election my wife used to go into fits when she heard Chen’s speeches in Taiwanese. He was delibertalely fanning hatred and divisiveness. The idea that Taiwan is for the ethnically Taiwanese was very much in the air 4 years ago and seemed very much part of the DPP’s message. My wife’s mother had to remind her relatives in Taichung that Hui Ming, her daughter, may be half WSR but she was also half BSR. And in any case did they really think she had no place in Taiwan?
ac is right, the division between bsr and wsr was pretty much over by the turn of the century. It was politicking to bring it back up last election which is why it is not much of an issue anymore except perhaps for the deep green. It just doesn’t resonate that much with most people. At least I hope it doesn’t.
Okay, I am contraducting myself a bit there. Perhaps the speech above does express Chen’s true feelings. But it don’t match the message he spread to get him into power.[/quote][/quote]
I’ll try to find some quotes but obviously that won’t be easy and in any case do you really understand Taiwanese well enough to understand the linguistics nuances and the implications of cultural references of a political speech? Sorry, but I do find that hard to believe. You wouldn’t even get all the references in a George Bush speech when he talks to his American Christain base and English is your native language. It’s too local, too subtle. So come on, if many people who actually grew up here, and who have spoken the language from birth, are hearing hatred and divisiveness then you are being a bit, I don’t know, to suggest it isn’t there because you can’t hear it.
In any case, the worry you describe does not fit my wife nor many wsr/bsr friends who do clearly identify themselves as Taiwanese now and who may very well vote for Hsieh. I don’t see why they would make this up.
As for whether there are many bigots in Taiwan, I suggest you try an experiment and when you meet people let them believe you have a wsr wife. You know I travel around the island a lot, and of course get asked if I am married by everyone I meet. It’s not uncommon to see attitudes change when I reveal my wife’s background. For fun I sometimes let out that her mom is bsr which honestly relieves some people.
Whether or not CSB is a true bigot or just a political opportunist, can only be answered by him. But he panders to the BSR racist and motivates them to the polls. By speaking Minnan in public he is excluding non-Hoklo BSR from the conversation. By always reminding people that Dai-wan-lang gong Dai-wan-wei he is dividing the public on the misconception that WSR have unfairly disenfranchised Hoklo BSR.
Even your allegation of Taiwanese don’t like speaking Mandarin is frought with inconsistency. Tai-yu is not a complete written language. There are no standards, no canon, no great classics for the dialect. This is not the fault of the KMT or Japanese or Imperial China. This is just how the Minnan culture developed. Just like the aboriginal language and hundreds of other Chinese dialects. Does one attack the previous government and a minority group for the lack of cultural development of a particular group?
Given your view does that mean the Taiwanese in the US should also abstain from speaking American English because they don’t like it. In various part of the US, the Taiwanese population also from an majority in some districts.
CSB speech always alludes to the magical 85% as if it is they are entitled to privileges just for being a majority. That is not how a meritocracy works. Pandering to those feeling may motivate people to the polls, but it adds very little value to multi-ethnic society as a whole.
And who says hanji-o-ah identify only with their WSR roots? A fundimentally incorrect message, is that either you’re a WSR or BSR, which just isn’t true.
[quote=“Feiren”]Sorry, here is a more complete statement of CSB’s position on ethnic relations at his inaugural relation. Basically the same, but more complete and eloquent.
[quote]It was several hundred years ago that the generations before us traversed the “Black-water Channel” (Taiwan Strait) or crossed the great ocean to find a safe haven in Taiwan. No matter what year they arrived, regardless of their ancestral origins and their mother tongues, even in spite of their different hopes and dreams, all are our forefathers; all have settled down here and together faced a common destiny. Whether indigenous peoples or “new settlers,” expatriates living abroad, foreign spouses or immigrant workers who labor under Taiwan’s blazing sun–all have made a unique contribution to this land and each has become an indispensable member of our “New Taiwan” family.
Various ethnic groups, because of their disparate history and distinctive subcultures, understandably hold divergent views and values. Recognizing such inherent differences, we should embrace one another with more tolerance and understanding. The authoritarian government of the past exploited inequality among different ethnic groups, suppressing native languages and cultures. Nonetheless, we must acknowledge that except for a few individuals in power, members of all ethnic groups have been victimized. The February 28 Incident and the “White Terror,” of which the victims include both the “Ben-sheng” (Taiwanese) and the “Wai-sheng” (Mainlanders), were not historical representations of subjugation by ethnic groups, rather, abuse of power by a ruling government.
The fabric of Taiwan society today is comprised mainly of diverse immigrant groups. It is not a minority-ruled colonial state; hence, no single ethnic group alone should undeservingly bear the burden of history. Presently, regardless of one’s birthplace–be it Guangdong or Taidong, regardless of the origin of one’s mother–be it Vietnam or Tainan, and regardless of whether an individual identifies with Taiwan or with the Republic of China, per se, a common destiny has bequeathed upon all of us the same parity and dignity. Therefore, let us relinquish our differentiation between native and foreign, and between minority and majority, for the most complimentary and accurate depiction of present-day Taiwan is of a people “ethnically diverse, but one as a nation.” A shared sense of belonging has become the common denominator among all the 23 million people of Taiwan.[/quote] [my emphasis][/quote]
Do you have a link to the Chinese language text?
That speech would have been written by speechwriters, going through several layers of vetting and refinement before it landed on the president’s desk. They’d have been told to write something that projected a message of inclusiveness and other good things which ordinary, decent people would like to hear, and that didn’t give his opponents any ammunition with which to attack him.
When he received the draft of the speech, he may have changed a word here or there, but basically would just have been reading a propaganda document designed by experts to cast him in the best possible light. Its content would have very little to do with his true beliefs and intentions.
Well, it might be so, however I have not seen any actions from the presidents side against non-hoklos.
He’s derided as a Hoklo bigot, based on the fact that he’s not KMT.
(The KMT’s history of ethnic suppression is very long and dark, and current leaders took part in it with glee).
I’m not going to demonize Chen, and I agree that for people like ac, it likely does have much to do with losing unearned priviledges.
But he’s derided as a Hoklo bigot for things he has said to his base. As I said, I hear about these things in translation so please don’t ask me for a quote. But the people telling me these things are reliable in my opinion. Furthemore, as I have said, having a wsr wife has made me more aware than most of you how much bigotry is out there.
It’s not explosive bigotry and I have no fears there’s ever going to be a civil war between the groups. It’s just an annoying fact of life in Taiwan and some politicians are going to exploit it. As far as I know, Chen was one of them.
And yes KMT suppression of the local culture was pervasive and deadly and deserves condemnation. There is no equating the two. However, now that we have moved to a modern era, politcians have to be held to democratic standards.
Here’s the section I quoted. And here’s the entire speech.
[quote] 回想數百年前，我們的祖先跨越黑水溝，渡海來台尋找安身立命的所在。不論先來後到，儘管來自不同的地方，使用不同的語言，甚至懷抱不同的理想，最後都在這裡落地生根，彼此命運相同、休戚與共。不管是原住民、新住民、旅居海外的僑胞、注入新血的外籍配偶，包括在相同的太陽底下辛勤流汗的外籍勞工，都對這一塊土地有不可抹滅的奉獻，也都是台灣新家庭不可或缺的一部份。
不同的族群或許因為歷史記憶與民族情感而有認同的差異，但是彼此應該相互包容、用心理解。在過去威權戒嚴的時代，曾經存在族群地位的不平等和語言文化的壓抑，但是我們必須認知的是，除了極少數的當權者之外，所有的族群都是相同的受害者。在二二八事件和白色恐怖當中，受難者同時包括本省籍和外省籍，其成因要歸咎於當權者權力的濫用，而非族群的壓迫。
台灣是一個多數移民的社會，不是少數殖民統治的國家，沒有任何一個族群應該背負莫須有的歷史包袱。在今日的台灣，不管你出生在廣東或者台東，不管我們的母親來自越南或者台南，每一個人都擁有同樣的地位和尊嚴。阿扁認為，不管是認同台灣或者認同中華民國，其實都是相同的歸屬。「族群多元、國家一體」是台灣這一塊土地上最美好完整的圖像，沒有本土和外來之分，也沒有少數和多數之別，兩千三百萬台灣人民應該是一個命運相同、榮辱與共的整數。[/quote]
So when Chen said his election was a victory for all real Taiwanese, who are the “real Taiwanese” he is referring to, and who are the “fake Taiwanese” ?
If referring to people who didn’t vote for you as “not real Taiwanese”, akin to being a traitor, isn’t inflamatory I don’t know what is.
Mucha Man, most of the speechifying in Taiwanese is really pretty close to what you would hear in Mandarin. There really just aren’t that many subtle implications that only locals can understand. I think it’s a question of interpretation though. For many people (see AC above) the very fact that Chen speaks in Taiwanese is fomenting ethnic hatred. I can’t accept that as a valid argument.
For others, Chen is fomenting ethnic hatred because he strongly rejects the views espoused by people like reztrop above–he believes that democracy is something that the Taiwanese fought for and won with considerable sacrifice. That view is often characterized as “rewriting (i.e. distorting) history” and therefore an attempt to provoke ethnic strife. I disagree. We can only judge the man by what he says.
As for trouble getting quotes, I don’t think it is a problem. The blue press and the talk shows go over everything he says carefully for content they find offensive. If there is something juicy out there, they would find it, and we would be able to find it easily on Google.
Do you remember when the United Daily News and the China Times made up the story about Yu Shyi-kun referring to “Chinese Pigs” during the height of Red Shirt Army protests? You will need to scroll down to the section ‘Who Said ‘Chinese Pigs’?’ in my treatment of the incident if you do not.
My point is that there is a steady drumbeat of outright lies and insinuations in the pro-blue media about how the DPP is a force for ethnic bigotry. This smear campaign also contributes to the tendency misread what the DPP is saying.
I think CSB is really saying that being Taiwanese is a political choice, not an ethnic one. Ma Ying-jeou can be Taiwanese if he chooses to be. The point is that he has not chosen to do so. Instead he chooses to be Chinese in the political sense. That is unacceptable to CSB and he says so. But its just not ethnic bigotry.
Feiren, I know you’re part of a group that covers and follows taiwanese politics very carefully, so I appreciate your post and do acknowledge you probably know a lot more about this than me. As I’ve written, I’m just getting my opinions from listening to ordinary people who don’t seem to have any ideological axes to grind.
That relations between wsr and bsr appeared to grow more strained after the DPP victory in 2000, seems pretty incontroversial to me. What then caused it?
Probably, before Chen was elected, bsr where still getting the swift kicks on their butts as it had been norma in the past 50 years… You have to understand… no revolution happened, the wsr where not lynched for what they did in the past, there were no mass murdering of KMT politicians over here, so the accumulated hatred has to show up somewhere…
Maybe you guys just should try a walk in the rural areas of Catalonia and speak Spanish… you would probably see things you couldn’t imagine in the middle of Europe…
Why not? Not every BSR speaks Taiwanese. He is basically imposing Minnan as the new language for political discourse, when it is not. Thus all BSR and WSR who don’t speak Minnan fluently are excluded from the conversation of the future of Taiwan. How is that not fermenting ethnic hatred?
That is rewriting history. Taiwanese never “fought” for democracy. They fought to dominate the political scene in Taiwan. They haven’t done one thing to forward the principle of democracy that the KMT didn’t lay the ground work for. To claim the BSR and the DPP have a monopoly on the democratic development of Taiwan is false.
Yes it is a political choice. However the Taiwanese label is only bestowed on those that agree with CSB and his TI supporters. Which is political fascism. Because CSB claims LTH is not “Taiwanese” enough whenever they disagree about various issues.
Before people get the strange idea I’m a direct descendent of a WSR official that came over with the KMT in 1949, I’m not. My parents earned their privilege in ROC by entering the university system. I’ve earned my privilege from inheriting their work ethnic in the endeavors I’ve engage in.
Sure I’ve come across the stereotype that my success must be attributed to the “secret stash of WSR billions.” But being a son of a Taiwanese pig farmer and WSR refugee fleeing the communist those mythical “billions” that could have seeded my success were few and far between to say the least.
My objection has always been with the DPP in terms of campaigning is that they imply that there is a privilege for being an ethnic majority. Which doesn’t exist in a society based on meritocracy. This is counter to what Feiren and mr_boogie have been suggesting, that if the ethnic majority doesn’t wish to speak Mandarin, than they can speak whatever they want in an official capacity. Bypassing the issue of whether or not the entire population in Taiwan understands them is beside the point.
Or the concept, if the BSR majority believe that have been slighted in the past 50 years, they are entitled to the privilege of making amends in a unilateral fashion, independent of actual history but based entirely on their majority belief.
By taking the position that WSR and non Minnan speaking BSR can be dismissed so casually is the fundimental basis of why the division is growing in Taiwan. Just look at the DPP and I challenge anyone to find a WSR who is next in line to become a DPP head. Clearly actions speak louder than words.
I thought that 70%+ of the population does speak Taiwanese (which is a form of Minnan and not Minnan itself), but how many does really speak well Mandarin? I take Mandarin classes for foreign spouses and 90% of the people in the class are Taiwanese elders, and their Mandarin level isn’t that much better than mine…
How different speaking in Mandarin is? It is not the local language, but rather an imposed one, isn’t it?
And 70% of the population is the majority, and the majority that voted for him and that caters his attention…
[quote=“mr_boogie”]I thought that 70%+ of the population does speak Taiwanese (which is a form of Minnan and not Minnan itself), but how many does really speak well Mandarin? I take Mandarin classes for foreign spouses and 90% of the people in the class are Taiwanese elders, and their Mandarin level isn’t that much better than mine…
How different speaking in Mandarin is? It is not the local language, but rather an imposed one, isn’t it?
And 70% of the population is the majority, and the majority that voted for him and that caters his attention…
[/quote]
99% of the population speak Mandarin, and unless you’re a complete moron you know this too. This is border line trolling.
So, how about addressing the issue brought up by the OP, do you think CSB’s comments are reprehensible? Personally I think he can say what he likes, his popularity won’t go down any further.
99% of Taiwan speaks mandarin. 96% of the adult population is literate in Mandarin Chinese. So when a President consciously speaks a dialect that only 70% of the population understands, what is he saying to the 30% he knows doesn’t understand him?
I mean is it out of the question that these 30% non-Minnan speakers heard the big “F.U. and get the f*ck out of the new Hoklo nation.”
I’m sure Feiren and TI supporting ilk will try to justify how this is just a misunderstanding and how the Hoklo are the true victims in this case.
There are 2 very fundimental facts that BSR Hoklo on Taiwan over look when they state Mandarin was imposed on them.
-
When ROC was formed Mandarin was imposed on every ROC citizens. Not just those that were in Taiwan. It is pretentious of the Hoklo BSR to believe that they are some how different than other ROC citizens that had to learn the Mandarin dialect as well and not adhere to the official dialect of ROC when in public discourse.
-
The Minnan spoken in Taiwan has no significant difference than the Mandarin spoken in Taiwan, in comparison to the Mainland. They may wish to believe it is different to the point of being unintelligible, however, those of us that traveled to the mainland, and have met WSR Minnan speaker in Taiwan, know that is not the case.
So Americans speak a form of English, but it’s not really English. Canadians speak a form of English, but it’s not really English. I guess we should rename the “Teaching English” forum here to “Teaching a Form of English, But Not Teaching English Itself”.