Confucian ethics + loss of face = apocalyptic rage... Why?

Taiwan Living in Taiwan
61

OK Plasmatron: if I was misinformed than who was the source of my information? In any case, I have heard similar stories with different twists to them, so it’s good that you clarified your further and established that you weren’t baiting her.[/quote]

That’s the point BJ, you didn’t have any source of information for your fairly pointed accusations of how my supposed linguistic ineptitude, unwarranted aggression and lack of social tact and understanding all were all to blame for the incident, so you just went ahead and based your armchair analysis on off base assumptions… Your other hypothetical scenarios about drunken foreigners peeing in a gutter were similarly wide of the mark and just not analogous to the situation at all… Take the devil’s advocate road by all means, but you can’t just make stuff up because it sounds nice and seems to validate the point you’d like to make…

62

Classic post, and classic lines.

Its also interesting that Confucian ethics + loss of face also results in not only the outwardly directed rage, but in suicide. Sad but true. The whole thing is rather sad actually, whether it is directed inward or outward. Many Taiwanese commit suicide over “loss of face”, over seemingly small issues that to them are extremely important. Once again, cheesy kung-fu flic mentality. They take their ego very very seriously.

I know from my personal experience that when I am able to simply acknowledge that I was wrong and made a mistake and offer a sincere apology it removes a huge weight off my own back. I then have nothing to defend. It is not easy to do, the first reaction is often a defensive one. This is not a Chinese problem but rather a human problem. The issue in Chinese society is that the culture not only creates this, but reinforces and rewards taking the defensive lower path. This is what your parents do, your friends do, the movies/tv etc… They are not taught the freedom of being a fool, a normal human that makes bad decisions as well as good decisions.

63

Very good comment Homey.

64

Tainan Cowboy: There is no actual content to your post, just flat out saying No! to what I have said. So, I’ll send that back to you: No, you are wrong. I am not an apologist, and calling me one makes you look very one-sided. The whole “apologist” thing clinches that, IMHO. That’s a hallmark statement for those who want to criticize before they understand.

Plasmotron: Obviously you were my source of information, or else I wouldn’t have even known about the incident, so get your words right. If you want to say I misinterpreted your post, which may very well have been the case- then say that - not that I was misinformed.

You misinterpreted my post, possibly my fault as its meaning was a bit obscure. The meaning of the voice haranguing the drunken foreigner pissing on his car is to try and get people to see how this woman may have felt, not to say that the two events were morally or in any other way the same, other than trying to relate to how the old bird may have felt. I am not saying she was in the right.

In your first post it sounded like you were baiting the woman, by continuing to demand an explanation even after she was already in a huff and at least doing some washing up, and then her losing it. In your last explanatory post you portray her as being extremely crotchedy from the get-go, and this pissing you off and getting you started. That’s a different matter, as I admitted in my post before you two started ranting at me, SO WHAT’S THE PROBLEM??? YOU POSTED THIS THING, I RESPONDED SINCERELY, YOU CLARIFIED, AND I MODIFIED, SO WHAT’S YOUR DEAL NOW? I DON’T GET IT.

Got to go. More later if you want.

65

“Mama I wanna wee wee”
“Toilet’s being used”.
“Mama I wanna wee weeNOW”
“You can’t at the moment, Auntie no. 3 zhang is in the loo and he’s got diarrhoea and vomiting”
“But Mummy I have to go NOW”
“Youcan’t go no, you’ll just have to wait”
"NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW "
“NO Yoyo you CAN’T go now san yi zhang is in the toilet”
“SAn YI ZHANG!!! hurrry up I’m bursting!”

“Waaa? Barf! Spume.spit.yak.arrgh.hawk.splatter”

“MUMMMY I’M GOING TO WET MY PANTS”

[father looks up from paper]

“oh for christ’s sake laopo take her outside”

“oh come on then HURRY UP get your sandals on”

(oh shit she can’t just pee outside teh front door… have to find somewhere MUMMY I’M BUSTING ab it more private maybe the park…MUMMY!!! I’M GOING TO GO NOW!!!..)

oh just pee there in that drain hurry up before someone comes (god i hope no-one comes) quick pull you pants up OH JESUS H HERE COMES A FUCKING ALIEN now what am I supposed to do /say??? oh god I just KNOW he’s going to start talking to me in waiyu oh SHIT! oh well a glib “BUHAOYISI” willl just have to do.

66

Well, that’s what I think probably happened. It explains why not their own toilet, and why not their own drain.

67

The problem seems to be that many of you are telling plasmatron what he should have done. Not only pointless but fairly irritating. Can’t stand the ‘IIIIIIIIII understand the impregnable Ayshun culcha more than youuuu’ types, myself.

Ever seen a faceless Thai kick off? Absolutely explosive. And a Brit in a corner (however self-hemmed)? Not pretty.

68

Absolutely true. British girls are some of the ugliest on the planet. Especially the ones who sulk in corners at parties.

Plasmatron, whatever anyone says, myself included, if I had walked out and found that happening outside my door I would probably have expressed displeasure. And if someone had been ill-graced in replying then I would probably have been even more vexed. Whatever you should have done, you weren’t in the wrong with what you did. It’s just one of those occasional unavoidable disasters that leaves you with a bad taste in your mouth and a massive dose of bewilderment. I hope you’ve recovered now.

69

I have a question, perhaps a tad OT, but it relates back to the title:

I was watching news today of Mrs. Chen in her wheelchair with past footage of her shopping with the vouchers or something.

What do you think is the average reaction of Taiwanese?

  1. Sense that justice ought to be done, and she should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law

  2. How can I get my hands on some voucher or other scam

  3. The government is unfairly targeting her, since everyone cheats and what can you do about it?

I’m sure Taiwan society has a mix of these (and more), but I wonder what is your impression of what the “majority” of Taiwan society think of a corruption case like this?

70

[quote]“to be shamed into rage” If you provoke a person to that, rightly or wrongly, there is little hope of resuming a normal relationship with that person after that. [/quote]It’s quite strange, actually, how they take small things right to the grave with them. Can’t be healthy.

[quote]to those who argue that pissing in public drains is acceptable practice, well, I disagree,[/quote]I have NEVER done that. Never even thought about it. No, it’s true…

I read that in the first place. I lost it solid at a guy who dropped some garbage in front of my house a little while ago. It turned ugly in a split second, but I made him pick up his damn trash. All things considered, from this guy’s POV, you handled things well, so long as the lady in question isn’t related to you in ANY way. Be it work, family, the gas station where you fuel up, the corner restaurant, etc. OK, slight exaggeration, but… People do go to the extent of inventing terrible lies about you if you make them lose face, and in some instances, it can play against you to confront people like that in your close community.

marboulette

71

Logic only leads to anger, anger leads to suffering, suffering leads to the dark side. :bow:

72

And it’s at this point where I would have just huffed and gone back inside. At this point, it’s mission accomplished. You’ve made your point and have sufficiently punished her.

At this point, you’re rubbing it in. Sure, rubbing it in when you’re in the right can be quite pleasurable, but what other reaction did you expect? Did you expect her to drop on her knees and scream 道歉道歉! as she banged her head on the pavement? What were you trying to accomplish?

How would you have reacted if it had been you who been in the wrong?

73

[quote=“smithsgj”]“Mama I wanna wee wee” “Toilet’s being used”. “Mama I wanna wee weeNOW” “You can’t at the moment, Auntie no. 3 zhang is in the loo and he’s got diarrhoea and vomiting” “But Mummy I have to go NOW” “Youcan’t go no, you’ll just have to wait” "NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW " “NO Yoyo you CAN’T go now san yi zhang is in the toilet” “SAn YI ZHANG!!! hurrry up I’m bursting!” “Waaa? Barf! Spume.spit.yak.arrgh.hawk.splatter” “MUMMMY I’m GOING TO WET MY PANTS” [father looks up from paper] “oh for christ’s sake laopo take her outside” “oh come on then HURRY UP get your sandals on” (oh shit she can’t just pee outside teh front door… have to find somewhere MUMMY I’m BUSTING ab it more private maybe the park…MUMMY!!! I’m GOING TO GO NOW!!!..)

oh just pee there in that drain hurry up before someone comes (god I hope no-one comes) quick pull you pants up OH JESUS H HERE COMES A FUCKING ALIEN now what am I supposed to do /say??? oh god I just KNOW he’s going to start talking to me in waiyu oh SHIT! oh well a glib “BUHAOYISI” willl just have to do.
Well, that’s what I think probably happened. It explains why not their own toilet, and why not their own drain.[/quote]

Well, just making things up out of the blue is interesting for the sake of hypothetical “what could have happened” conjecture I suppose, though not very meaningful since I could just as easily make up a story about how the woman might have Kroiszfelt-Von Sczhaller Syndrome, a rare psychological condition that compels her to force other people to urinate in inappropriate locations and bang, she’s off scot-free… (Don’t bother Googling that BTW, it’s just made up nonsense…)

Your stab at pee fiction is more well rounded for sure smithsgj, but still divorced from reality since a.) Houses these days have more than one bathroom b.) the drain outside their house, while way closer than the one outside my house, is not openly visible from inside their front room and c.) even if it were, the kind of people who condone their kids pissing in drains like it’s still the 16th century are not likely to rate tact and decorum too highly when selecting a location…

I don’t mean to come over as slamming you for offering a suggestion smithsgj, quite the opposite, but your hypothetical just doesn’t mesh with the reality…

Like I said, I expected it to end there as well… But she came back, already snapping at me in an aggressive manner, washed the pee away, then immediately went on the offense, started waving her bucket in my face and barking “Is this good enough, huh, Is this good enough!”… In response I merely asked her to answer my initial question, I wasn’t taking pleasure in it at all… What I wanted to achieve was for her to recognise the fact that she’d lied about her reasons for fouling my house instead of her own and apologise, especially in light of how hostile and unapologetic she was being despite clearly being in the wrong… As for what I would have done, well I wouldn’t have had my kid pissing in public drains for a start, but in the hypothetical, I would have said in a conciliatory tone, “I’m very sorry, that was inconsiderate and wrong… It won’t happen again…”

74

This relates to the topic more than the pee story, but I just realized something over the weekend that’s never sunk in before.
And, no, this isn’t really about teaching English.
I was helping the chieflette study for her (4th grade local school) English test, which should, obviously, be a fucking breeze, since she’s fully fluent. Unfortunately, like pretty much every other student of the language, she was being lax about S/V agreement, etc.
As she neglected, for like the 5th time, to differentiate, saying something like “This is a shirt, these are a shoes…” I kind of hit the end of my chain and said “Look, there are only two possible reasons for you to be making this mistake over and over. One, you’re stupid, or two, you’re lazy.”
She makes my wife’s face at me and says “OK, fine, I’m stupid.”
And I say “Of course you aren’t stupid. I’ve seen the paperwork, I know you aren’t stupid, you just aren’t paying attention.”
“But I’m NOT lazy!”
Now, I recall having this type of conversation in the past, both with students and with engineers, and invariably, they answer the same.
Whereas we, from the West, would readily admit to being lazy rather than stupid, the opposite is true in this fucked-up Confucian paradigm.
Because, if you’re stupid, it ain’t your fault.
See, you have no responsibility for that.
So you’re off the hook.

I was dumbfounded that I’d never really grokked this before.
But, of course, it ties in with the whole bizarre system of fault/culpability (and lack thereof) seen in traffic, the workplace, politics, and all kinds of other situations.

75

The sheer beauty of it though, is just how predictable this response is. You can turn it on and off like a tap. They are just so damned amenable to manipulation.

HG

76

[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]
The sheer beauty of it though, is just how predictable this response is. You can turn it on and off like a tap. They are just so damned amenable to manipulation.[/quote]
Hey hey, don’t let all of the cats out of the bag. You’ll spoil all the fun! :wink:

77

[quote=“the chief”]This relates to the topic more than the pee story, but I just realized something over the weekend that’s never sunk in before.
And, no, this isn’t really about teaching English.
I was helping the chieflette study for her (4th grade local school) English test, which should, obviously, be a fucking breeze, since she’s fully fluent. Unfortunately, like pretty much every other student of the language, she was being lax about S/V agreement, etc.
As she neglected, for like the 5th time, to differentiate, saying something like “This is a shirt, these are a shoes…” I kind of hit the end of my chain and said “Look, there are only two possible reasons for you to be making this mistake over and over. One, you’re stupid, or two, you’re lazy.”
She makes my wife’s face at me and says “OK, fine, I’m stupid.”
And I say “Of course you aren’t stupid. I’ve seen the paperwork, I know you aren’t stupid, you just aren’t paying attention.”
“But I’m NOT lazy!”
Now, I recall having this type of conversation in the past, both with students and with engineers, and invariably, they answer the same.
Whereas we, from the West, would readily admit to being lazy rather than stupid, the opposite is true in this fucked-up Confucian paradigm.
Because, if you’re stupid, it ain’t your fault.
See, you have no responsibility for that.
So you’re off the hook.

I was dumbfounded that I’d never really grokked this before.
But, of course, it ties in with the whole bizarre system of fault/culpability (and lack thereof) seen in traffic, the workplace, politics, and all kinds of other situations.[/quote]

No. You offered her two choices. Stupid or lazy. In her mind she works hard so the only choice left is stupid.
What you should have said was: I am sorry for making you learn two languages and for working you hard before a test when you are only (insert childs age). Would you like to fuck all this shit off and go play in the park?

To the OP. Righteous indignation is a sublime feeling isn’t it!

78

[quote=“mike_rophonechecker”][quote=“the chief”]This relates to the topic more than the pee story, but I just realized something over the weekend that’s never sunk in before.
And, no, this isn’t really about teaching English.
I was helping the chieflette study for her (4th grade local school) English test, which should, obviously, be a fucking breeze, since she’s fully fluent. Unfortunately, like pretty much every other student of the language, she was being lax about S/V agreement, etc.
As she neglected, for like the 5th time, to differentiate, saying something like “This is a shirt, these are a shoes…” I kind of hit the end of my chain and said “Look, there are only two possible reasons for you to be making this mistake over and over. One, you’re stupid, or two, you’re lazy.”
She makes my wife’s face at me and says “OK, fine, I’m stupid.”
And I say “Of course you aren’t stupid. I’ve seen the paperwork, I know you aren’t stupid, you just aren’t paying attention.”
“But I’m NOT lazy!”
Now, I recall having this type of conversation in the past, both with students and with engineers, and invariably, they answer the same.
Whereas we, from the West, would readily admit to being lazy rather than stupid, the opposite is true in this fucked-up Confucian paradigm.
Because, if you’re stupid, it ain’t your fault.
See, you have no responsibility for that.
So you’re off the hook.

I was dumbfounded that I’d never really grokked this before.
But, of course, it ties in with the whole bizarre system of fault/culpability (and lack thereof) seen in traffic, the workplace, politics, and all kinds of other situations.[/quote]

No. You offered her two choices. Stupid or lazy. In her mind she works hard so the only choice left is stupid.
What you should have said was: I am sorry for making you learn two languages and for working you hard before a test when you are only (insert childs age). Would you like to fuck all this shit off and go play in the park? [/quote]

Pfft.
No wonder your Ma needs all that cheese, butthead offspring like you.
Not that it’s any of YOUR beeswax, Simone, but the point was that she wasn’t working hard, and that she was taking advantage of the fact that we’d been playing X-Box JLA Heroes all fucking morning, having finally earned enough shields to buy Hawkgirl, when I insisted we take a break and spend 15 lousy minutes going over her English to avoid her mother just plain cutting my nuts off with a watermelon knife.
Least my kid would know what to do with a stinking old pair of jeans…

79

[quote=“the chief”]Pfft.
No wonder your Ma needs all that cheese, butthead offspring like you.
Not that it’s any of YOUR beeswax, Simone, but the point was that she wasn’t working hard, and that she was taking advantage of the fact that we’d been playing X-Box JLA Heroes all fucking morning, having finally earned enough shields to buy Hawkgirl, when I insisted we take a break and spend 15 lousy minutes going over her English to avoid her mother just plain cutting my nuts off with a watermelon knife.
Least my kid would know what to do with a stinking old pair of jeans…[/quote]

Simone. Love it.

I wouldn’t dare make a child. The world has enough cunts.

80

[quote=“mike_rophonechecker”][quote=“the chief”]Pfft.
No wonder your Ma needs all that cheese, butthead offspring like you.
Not that it’s any of YOUR beeswax, Simone, but the point was that she wasn’t working hard, and that she was taking advantage of the fact that we’d been playing X-Box JLA Heroes all fucking morning, having finally earned enough shields to buy Hawkgirl, when I insisted we take a break and spend 15 lousy minutes going over her English to avoid her mother just plain cutting my nuts off with a watermelon knife.
Least my kid would know what to do with a stinking old pair of jeans…[/quote]

Simone. Love it.

I wouldn’t dare make a child. The world has enough cunts.[/quote]

At least make a girl.
The world has enough cunts.