So I learned two things this evening.
And that one gets lots and lots of hits:
[quote=“Google”]Results 1 - 10 of about 176,000 for “惱羞成怒”. (0.17 seconds) [/quote] Thanks for that, sjcma.
Oops! You’re right of course. 
I’ve gone back and edited it - thanks for the heads-up.
So, I guess now that my face has been lost, the proper response would be for me to freak out and ban the lot of you! 
Paisei, Paisei! Buhaoyisi!
Just want to say that I certainly understand the frustrations of living here, but that the whole concept of “rubbing it in” is not going to work well in any culture, Confucian or otherwise.
I mean, look at it from another point of view: You’re coming out of a pub, and you have to take a piss. You sneak in behind a parked car in a small lane and start tinkling, and then suddenly a voice shouts at you from above, “Wat fuk you doing for’ner!! You think you can piss on Taiwan!!!?” Oops! “Sorry man, sorry, I’m just a bit drunk!” You take a bottle of water from your backpack and rinse off the area. “Sorry!”
But the voice doesn’t stop: “Rude basta! You piss on Taiwan, we no toilet! Assho!” You sincerly apologize, “I’'m really dreadfully sorry. Really.” But the voice still doesn’t stop: “Fuk off! Don’ piss on Taiwan, stupie for’ner!” You loose it, “OK, fuck off mate, just fuck off! I was just taking a goddamn piss!” Voice responds, “Fuk you! Fuk you stupid for’ner!”
What would you think of that person? You would think he totally overreacted and was unnecessarily hostile. You may have been technically in the wrong, but the guy was just a total cunt about it. Probably that lady felt the same way, but for cultural reasons was emotionally ill-equipped to deal with such obvious confrontation over what anybody would know is a minor matter, for which she had already apologized.
It’s not fair for the “voice” above to unload on you because you are a foreigner; similarly, it was not fair of the OP to unload on the old lady, just because of his accumulated frustrations of living here and dealing with irritating behaviour.
While I can definitely understand Plasmatron’s anger over someone eliminating body wastes near his abode, I think it would be incorrect to describe this as peasant-like behaviour or to classify the peasant ratio as being higher in Taiwan than in the West. People are people, and I would argue that there are just as many public pissers and shitters in the West, especially in cities with huge homelesss and drug addict populations, except that they are mostly adults in the West (not babies). In other words, they should know better.
Where there may be differences is in regards to child rearing. In Confucian societies, it seems that parents often let their children have free reign when they are toddlers. Perhaps this is because they know the regimented educational system will soon stamp out any signs of individuality. Perhaps it is also from a sense of guilt the parents feel for working too much and not spending enough time with the kids.
People in Chinese societies also don’t seem to have such a Christian guilt thing when it comes to their bodily functions. Perhaps parents think that defecating on the street or urinating may be unhygienic, but if baby/toddler has to go, they have to go. Westerners benefit from these relaxed attitudes towards body processes with Adult Chinese (less hangups on sex, right?), but dislike it when it doesn’t benefit their self gratification. Therefore, when they see younger Chinese eliminating waste in public, they are angry although they don’t mind the casualness in the older population. Seems a little hypocritical to me. 
For such a small island with such a dense population, social harmony and non-confrontation in Taiwan are priorities. Any other way and it would be anarchy. If people are made to lose face, they’ll be angry. This aspect of Chinese culture, as seen in the movie, the Sand Pebbles, hasn’t changed in 1000s of years.
However, many people are benefitting from this culture by living here through employment opportunities, family ties etc.
Isn’t trying to change it just another form of cultural imperialism? I thought left-leaning posters (a majority on Forumosa no doubt) were supposed to be against this type of behaviour.
I can understand the anger, but I probably wouldn’t have reacted in such an aggressive manner when it involves a mother and her child. Tolerance is needed when it comes to child rearing. As long as there was no defication involved on my property, I probably would have just poured water over the area.
[quote=“Chewycorns”]While I can definitely understand Plasmatron’s anger over someone eliminating body wastes near his abode, I think it would be incorrect to describe this as peasant-like behaviour or to classify the peasant ratio as being higher in Taiwan than in the West. People are people, and I would argue that there are just as many public pissers and shitters in the West, especially in cities with huge homelesss and drug addict populations, except that they are mostly adults in the West (not babies). In other words, they should know better.
Where there may be differences is in regards to child rearing. In Confucian socities, it seems that parents often let their children have free reign when they are toddlers. Perhaps this is because they know the regimented educational system will soon stamp out any signs of individuality. Perhaps it is also from a sense of guilt the parents feel for working too much and not spending enough time with the kids.
People in Chinese societies also don’t seem to have such a Christian guilt thing when it comes to their bodily functions. Perhaps parents think that defecating on the street or urinating may be unhygienic, but if baby/toddler has to go, they have to go. Westerners benefit from these relaxed attitudes towards body processes with Adult Chinese (less hangups on sex, right?), but dislike it when it doesn’t benefit their self gratification. Therefore, when they see younger Chinese eliminating waste in public, they are angry altough they don’t mind the casualness in the older population. Seems a little hypocritical to me.
For such a small island with such a dense population, social harmony and non-confrontation in Taiwan are priorities. Any other way and it would be anarchy. If people are made to lose face, they’ll be angry. This aspect of Chinse culture, as seen in the movie, the Sand Pebbles, hasn’t changed in 1000s of years.
However, many people are benefitting from this culture by living here through employment opportunities, family ties etc.
Isn’t trying to change it just another form of cultural imperialism? I thought left-leaning posters (a majority on Forumosa no doubt) were supposed to be against this type of behaviour.
I can understand the anger, but I probably wouldn’t have reacted in such an aggressive manner when it involves a mother and her child. Tolerance is needed when it comes to child rearing. As long as there was no defication involved on my property, I probably would have just poured water over the area.[/quote]
I am absolutely conflicted regarding your post chewy: it is an articulate argument that is compassionate and makes great sense, but it is also apologetic; almost bordering on rationalizing selfish behavior.
In many ways this place is a haven, but this place is also the land of, “what can I get away with, how far can I push it?” Most of the selfish pricks wandering the streets are resting on the fact that no one is going to say anything to them.
While I agree with many of your points I think you would have a hard time denying that consideration or basic manners in public is at best seriously lacking, at worst completely void.
The incivilities we all suffer on a daily basis in traffic on elevators, standing in line, walking up an escalator, walking down the street etc. are not a reflection of a lack of awareness they are a demonstration of the complete fuck you attitude towards their fellow citizens.
How many times have you had some ass pretend not to see you so he can push his way into a line, or walk three abreast on a side walk thereby forcing you to either: walk out into traffic or cut between them? How many times on a crowded street have you had some one walk past you and turn their shoulders just enough to make some room as you pass, rather than just walking straight ahead and bumping into you with out so much as even a pause as they pass?
Is this absolutely necessary no, but is it easier.
The complete lack of moot court or public appeal lets this lack of civility fester. We in the west are no better, but at least we have an active moot court that will speak up. Act like an ignorant cunt in most western cities and 10 people will tell you that your acting like a selfish prick, here people don’t like it, but they let it slide in quiet desperation.
Did the woman have a good reason to let her child piss in public; in her mind probably yes, did she know it was a selfish cunt move? Absolutely yes! part of her explosive reaction was somebody pushing the fact that she was acting like an ass and not just letting her slide. Do your Taiwanese neighbors enjoy living in a city that smells like stale piss and fetid defecation?
I would venture a guess and say no.
However, if you ask your friends family loved ones co-workers about any of these social barbs more than likely most of them will give you the head in the sand reply of," I don’t like it but what can I do?", or my personal favorite,“they might be gangsters!”
The woman knew she was acting like an ass and her explosion did not stem from her confused social-Confucian ethics or cosmogony it came from spending a lifetime acting like a selfish ass and getting away with it, to being called out or her obviously selfish actions, shamed in public and the OP’s refusal to let her slide on it with a pointless paisay.
How dare anyone intercede in her life with the concept of public culpability or civility; seriously the nerve of these foreigners! telling us what we can do to them in their own homes.
If I can treat my Taiwanese neighbors like shit,. then I can damn sure treat them like shit.
just a thought…
[quote=“BigJohn”]I mean, look at it from another point of view: You’re coming out of a pub, and you have to take a piss. You sneak in behind a parked car in a small lane and start tinkling, and then suddenly a voice shouts at you from above, “Wat fuk you doing for’ner!! You think you can piss on Taiwan!!!?” Oops! “Sorry man, sorry, I’m just a bit drunk!” You take a bottle of water from your backpack and rinse off the area. “Sorry!”
But the voice doesn’t stop: “Rude basta! You piss on Taiwan, we no toilet! Assho!” You sincerly apologize, “I’'m really dreadfully sorry. Really.” But the voice still doesn’t stop: “Fuk off! Don’ piss on Taiwan, stupie for’ner!” You loose it, “OK, fuck off mate, just fuck off! I was just taking a goddamn piss!” Voice responds, “Fuk you! Fuk you stupid for’ner!”
What would you think of that person? You would think he totally overreacted and was unnecessarily hostile. You may have been technically in the wrong, but the guy was just a total cunt about it. Probably that lady felt the same way, but for cultural reasons was emotionally ill-equipped to deal with such obvious confrontation over what anybody would know is a minor matter, for which she had already apologized.
It’s not fair for the “voice” above to unload on you because you are a foreigner; similarly, it was not fair of the OP to unload on the old lady, just because of his accumulated frustrations of living here and dealing with irritating behaviour.[/quote]
Big John, your analogy doesn’t fly, nor does Chewy’s. The woman didn’t “sicerely apologize”. She had other bathroom alternatives - she could have used the restroom at the place she was at, or the drain next to the place she was at. She must have had some concept that what she was doing was not very nice or she would have done it outside her front door instead of the neighbor’s. Also, unlike your example, Plasmatron wasn’t getting racist or obscene with the woman in broken Chinese - he was just reprimanding her.
I think, realistically, if you indicate even a small amount of displeasure to someone in Taiwan they get the point very quickly and move to avoid confrontation. Just saying “what are you doing, I can see you on my camera, you know,” would be enough. She may not have been sincere in apologising, but she cleaned up the mess. You got compliance, but not commitment.
If you had left it at that then you would probably not have had the problem again. The shame of being challenged, however gently, would be greater than the need to piss in your drain. In other words, the problem would have gone away.
She got angry because you insisted on being right. You asked her to give a commitment that she couldn’t give. That’s not going to happen because you don’t have the appropriate relationship, so trying to make it happen is pointless. I think, as someone said, you were venting your general sense of frustration even though it’s not actually useful to do so. We all do it, so this is not a criticism.
If I can compare this to my own quest for a cooked meal, the problem she saw was someone who was angry about piss. The problem you saw was someone being selfish. She solved the problem she saw with a bucket of water. You tried to solve your problem by making her see it, but she was disinclined to do so. I have to agree with Chewy that this is a case of trying to impose your own standards on someone else’s culture.
I make no apologies for doing the same thing in American-owned & themed restaurants, as I go there with the expectation of American-style food. I usually end up having to admit (in private, and very quietly) that insisting everyone does things my way in their day-to-day existences is, ahem, rude. (This in no way suggests that I’m wrong. My way is better, but billions of people apparently disagree with me.)
Taiwan is what it is. Your mistake was to look out of your bubble. Take the security camera down, and get used to the idea that when you step out of the gate you are entering their world. You can create your own paradise in your own space, but you can’t take it with you when you go outside. If you try then you will go crazy, if you haven’t done so already. Everyone needs a sanctuary, but it seems that you haven’t clarified the border in your own mind. Your rules don’t apply on the streets outside, even if your rules are better.
Maoman, I think you failed to understand my point.
The woman did sincerely apologize by trying to wash away the urine. An insincere apology would just have been the usual “paise!” or “buhaoysi!” and leaving the scene.
I have no idea how Plasmatron’s Chinese sounded to the woman, but I’m sure it was at least accented and obviously from a foreigner.
The man was racist in my example not because I think Plasmatron was racist, but to give an “unnecessary edge of hostility” to the encounter, which I am sure the woman would have felt. After all, it’s just a bit of child piss in the gutter, why go on and on unless you have some kind of axe to grind?
I think Plasmatron was unloading his accumulated frustrations on one person. The woman may not have understood that, but she no doubt felt the unusual intensity of his response. That is the analogy: an extra element of anger or hostility in response to a minor transgression that makes you think “What the fuck?”
Now, for those who think we should teach these Taiwanese a lesson about this or that, I often agree. We can learn from each other: they are great at many things, as are we. But I don’t think sticking a hardened finger into a weak spot and pressing that nerve while the subject squirms is a good way to teach. Do it for revenge if you like, but don’t fool yourself that you are taking the moral high road.
I’d think a disapproving look and an audible comment of “Mei shuizhun” would have sufficed.
[quote=“BigJohn”]Maoman, I think you failed to understand my point.
The woman did sincerely apologize by trying to wash away the urine. An insincere apology would just have been the usual “paise!” or “buhaoysi!” and leaving the scene.[/quote]
This is what Plasmatron said:
That’s not a sincere apology in any language, culture or country. 
I guess it could be a nicer apology. But my point still stands: Overreaction doesn’t usually teach people to be better.
I often get frustrated with the extreme behavior of my students, and I still do my best to try and teach simple basic human qualities but I know its a pointless and losing battle. I then quickly realize the reality of the mindset and actions of adults in this “festering Confucian cauldron of contempt for your fellow man that is central Taiwan” . How can these kids possibly act any other way?
I have never, in my whole life of traveling over much of the world seen so much violence. I see about one murder a month here. Gangs with baseball bats -knives literally killing one un-armed man in the middle of the street. Of course, nobody here cares, not even the cop impersonators. “Oh that happens all the time, its ok” is a common reply. It’s like these people are living in a cheesy freakin kung-fu flic They really do have that mentality here. Not only annoying, but dangerous. Getting angry is not always such a wise choice in this twilight zone where gangsters are respected and loved so much. From what I have seen and continue to see, killing someone on the street with your car, or twenty of your punk friends is not only allowed it is accepted, and there is an unwritten rule that NOBODY will stop to call the police impersonators or ambulance and of course nobody will help either. What? I didn’t see anything? “wo bu jr dao” the TW mantra. I do think that getting angry and causing someone to lose face here can and does result in extreme violence or death.
Holding anger inside is not healthy, but then again letting it out may not be so good for your health either.
Sorry, Homey, I just don’t see what you’re seeing. You witness a murder a month?! 
Yes!
Last week, we were staying at a nice hotel/spa, and the neighbors were making a lot of noise at 12:30 A.M. It was mostly kids jumping on beds and screaming as they fought with pillows. To be fair, we had made plenty of noise ourselves at a more reasonable hour. It was a shame that the walls weren’t thicker in such an expensive place.
Anyway, at 12:30, the wife calls the front desk. Nothing was done (we would have heard it), so at 12:45, I knocked on the wall three times. That was the end of the noise. I didn’t need to go to their door; they didn’t need to see my face, and I didn’t need to see theirs. So, the next morning we could all hold our heads high as we shoveled in the all-you-can-eat breakfast slop.
[quote=“Homey”]I often get frustrated with the extreme behavior of my students, and I still do my best to try and teach simple basic human qualities but I know its a pointless and losing battle. I then quickly realize the reality of the mindset and actions of adults in this “festering Confucian cauldron of contempt for your fellow man that is central Taiwan” . How can these kids possibly act any other way?
I have never, in my whole life of traveling over much of the world seen so much violence. I see about one murder a month here. Gangs with baseball bats -knives literally killing one un-armed man in the middle of the street. Of course, nobody here cares, not even the cop impersonators. “Oh that happens all the time, its ok” is a common reply. It’s like these people are living in a cheesy freakin kung-fu flic They really do have that mentality here. Not only annoying, but dangerous. Getting angry is not always such a wise choice in this twilight zone where gangsters are respected and loved so much. From what I have seen and continue to see, killing someone on the street with your car, or twenty of your punk friends is not only allowed it is accepted, and there is an unwritten rule that NOBODY will stop to call the police impersonators or ambulance and of course nobody will help either. What? I didn’t see anything? “wo bu jr dao” the TW mantra. I do think that getting angry and causing someone to lose face here can and does result in extreme violence or death.
Holding anger inside is not healthy, but then again letting it out may not be so good for your health either.[/quote]
Ah, you live in Taichung then…poor fellow.
What is it about Taichung and violence? Knife-wielding scooter gangs, punks brandishing baseball bats, innocent bystanders being targeted, etc. Heard a lot about it in the 90s. Still going on, so it seems.
Something in the water?
Thanks for your input everyone… If I wasn’t at least a little conflicted about how things went during the “Battle Of My Back Yard” I wouldn’t have posted about it, so I’m under no illusions that there are clear cut right/wrong binary answers are up for grabs here… In terms of what I think I could have done differently, well, I suppose I agree with the the folks who argued that I could have just kicked the door open to a “What the hell do you think you’re doing?” in my finest attempt at a James Earl Jones baritone followed up by an extended death stare capable of wilting lettuce from low earth orbit… Strangely though, I think even that approach may have failed for reasons similar to what Maoman and others have pointed out… Also, to those who argue that pissing in public drains is acceptable practice, well, I disagree, but the real root of what irked me was not so much the pissing in a public drain when a perfectly functional toilet was easily accessible, but the contempt and disrespect of knowing full well that the neighbors, her friends, wouldn’t hold with their drain being used as a public convenience and her deviously and deliberately coming over to use mine…
This 惱羞成怒 response isn’t a new thing to me at all (although the phrase is, thanks…) I’ve seen it happen many times here for all kinds of comparatively benign reasons but the really odd part about this woman’s tirade was that it seemed inevitable from the moment I opened the door… Despite how it might read in the OP at every point during our exchange I spoke only in a quiet, calm and reasonable tone and for those who were suggesting that perhaps it was my lack of language skills that provoked this to some degree, my Chinese is far from perfect obviously, but I’ve been here coming up on ten years, 7 of which have been working in a Taiwanese company where I am the only foreigner and the only English speaker and Chinese is my primary language 5 days a week, every week… Her initial reaction was startled confusion, as you would expect from a Confucian, and it was during those first few seconds that she uttered the only thing that could even vaguely be interpreted as an apology, and even that was not “sorry” but just a “buhaoyisi” spat out with cold reluctance and total insincerity… At every point subsequently it was her who escalated the situation getting more and more aggressive and confrontational every time she opened her mouth, which she did entirely of her own volition… By the time she came back with the water bucket I was more than happy to leave it at that and I only said to her, “I just want you to explain me why you came all the way over here to foul my living space instead of your own.”, in said calm and rational tone I might add, in response to her initiating a new exchange with her hostile and utterly unapologetic barking of, “Is this good enough?.. huh?.. Is this good enough!..” over and over in a raised voice while brandishing her water bucket at me like a weapon… It’s not the first time I’ve encountered people here taking the “double or nothing”, “re-raise and antagonize” approach to minor confrontations in the hopes of steam rolling a more tentative adversary regardless of how wrong they might be, and whilst those with a Ghandi like capacity for peace and harmony may at that stage have laid down and capitulated in the name of the greater good, but having received nothing but hostility and vitriol from the woman I merely asked my still unanswered, and I feel legitimate question a second time, to now infamously explosive results…
Anyway, what I found amazing was that right from the get go, without any provocation on my part other than asking why she would foul other’s environs but not her own, and I suppose my physical presence at my gate acting as a catalyst, it was alarmingly clear that the woman had chosen the hostile “escalate and antagonize” response to this minor conflict and being mentally unequipped to face or deal with it’s strategic failure, for some reason embarked on her own vicious circle of rage and public histrionics reciprocally fueling humiliation and loss of face, like a star in cheap blue flip flops collapsing in on it’s own gravity… Of course I can see how asking her to answer the initially almost rhetorical question a second time wasn’t exactly bending over backward to accommodate her growing aggression, but what lit her evidently inextinguishable fuse seemed to be merely having the “audacity” to open my gate and confront her in the first place… There was definitely some “unloading of accumulated frustrations” as suggested by a somewhat misinformed armchair sociologist/psychologist earlier in the thread, but it most certainly wasn’t from me… I had no axe to grind with her at all, and at no point was I anything but composed, rational and a little peeved throughout her caustic and belligerent escalation of the situation, right up until she physically unleashed her pent up anger by violently attacking an innocent child, followed by an abusive, racist and xenophobic diatribe against me personally and foreigners in general… Even then my only response to her shrieking like a bee stung banshee on a roller coaster, was a spoken “Why are you attacking your child, she doesn’t know any better, but as an adult you should.”, and perhaps one slightly under the belt “bloody peasant” which anyone who’s seen Monty Python would have been hard pressed not to have unleashed, but none of that really matters evidently since she stopped listening and switched to merely hearing immediately after I opened the door and said, “Hey!..”
Like I already said, I’m not claiming to have taken the moral high road, I am not glad the situation worked out as it did and it certainly was not my intention for it to have ended with what in many countries would have certainly been grounds for a family services investigation into child abuse, but it seems this is just par for the Confucian course…
The next time she or other fungible drain-pissing instructor does it, you should videotape the psycho-mom’s child bashing, and send copies of the tape to Child Protective Services and the local guys who wear police uniforms. That will help to build an invisible shield around the drain, with no loss of esprit de ville with the “hair salon”.
Thanks for the follow-up Plasmo.
Once again demonstrating how misguided the “apologists” really are.
OK Plasmatron: if I was misinformed than who was the source of my information? In any case, I have heard similar stories with different twists to them, so it’s good that you clarified your further and established that you weren’t baiting her.
Tainan Cowboy wrote:
I assume you are refering to apologists for American arrogance? 
Ha! Ha! But no, seriously, it’s really dumb to call people who are trying to look at both sides of the dispute fairly “apologists”. This is saying we all have to agree with the standard Western view right away, and to hell with the other side. This is arrogance, sorry dude. That’s like saying, "To hell with due process! I know they’re guilty, so let’s lynch’em, YeeHAW!: