[quote=“the bear”][quote=“TainanCowboy”]I thought this thread was abut Mikey Turton?
Re: Dr. Lee…he came…he investigated…the results of his investigation were suppressed.
He has REFUSED further comment on what he found.
[/quote]Please elucidate on the suppression of Dr Lee’s investigation results. First I’ve heard of it.[/quote]
Find Dr. Lee’s initial presentation of his investigation.
Now find any follow-up statements, or elaborations from him re: his investigation.
Not as successful as the scam that got Chen locked up.[/quote]
Yeah…right…OK…Hey, listen…I have a bridge down here for sale.
Goes right over to the mainland. You can make a fortune on tolls.
Can I put you down as an investor in it?[/quote]
That’s the line which stuck with me the most. In Taiwan?! That statement would be enough to make Gordon Gekko blush. Everyone knows Chen was railroaded for doing what every politician in the country had been doing. Which ones of them haven’t pocketed their campaign finance money? What is campaign finance money if it isn’t a bribe? Look at the US, politicians still pocket it to this day.
The latest scam in America, is to use campaign finance money to buy your own products e.g., the book you are selling to launch your campaign etc.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/18/herman-cain-mitt-romney-campaign-funds_n_1017568.html
Your buddies are among the worst offenders.
You were crazy to buy that bridge without having anyone to offload it to.
FOX -
LOL.
…so when is the Ah Bian team gonna return all of their stolen money?
@Betelnut- I don’t fully support that story you have woven as it is too complicated, I prefer the simple use low calibre bullet one shooter approach and keep it between a very select few people. You tend to have good knowledge of things but I think your conclusions can also be led by wishful thinking and a certain bias. You’ve got Annette Lu, bodyguards, large numbers of police, many detectives all working together actively to hid the truth. They pulled it off. Nobody talked.
I agree that the suicide was suspicious though.
@Fox- I agree Chen was shafted in some respects when you understand how corrupt most politicians are here, however as President he shouldn’t have tried to pocket so much cash and then he couldn’t have been shafted. His jail sentence was too severe in my opinion though.
[quote=“TainanCowboy”][quote=“the bear”][quote=“TainanCowboy”]I thought this thread was abut Mikey Turton?
Re: Dr. Lee…he came…he investigated…the results of his investigation were suppressed.
He has REFUSED further comment on what he found.
[/quote]Please elucidate on the suppression of Dr Lee’s investigation results. First I’ve heard of it.[/quote]
Find Dr. Lee’s initial presentation of his investigation.
Now find any follow-up statements, or elaborations from him re: his investigation.[/quote]
I’m far too busy surfing porn…how’s bout you find it?
[quote=“TainanCowboy”]FOX -
LOL.
…so when is the Ah Bian team gonna return all of their stolen money?[/quote]
When Sinopac goes bankrupt, and Lien Chan apologizes for stealing peasants’ land for his rezoning scams.
I’ll start off by saying that I don’t really know if Chen staged this or not. It’s not like I’ve got proof one way or the other in my back pocket. So anything I say from here on is speculation…
Chen Shuibian is/was the kind of person who would pull something like this. Of that I have no doubt. The big problem with a staged shooting is that he’d need accomplices, and that makes it hard. If just one accomplice blows the whistle, the whole plan is foiled and indeed will backfire.
I already said I don’t think Annette Lu is a lying scum-bucket like Ah-Bien, so it’s a little hard for me to believe she was in on it. Technically, I think it would have been possible to remote trigger a device under the dashboard to shoot her with some light projectile to make that minor wound she suffered. And that would explain the 90-degree turn that a bullet fired from the street would have had to make. But again, there would have to be an accomplice - Ah-Bien himself couldn’t have planted the device, so if it was done, it would require some technically competent person with access who would keep his mouth shut. And again, that begins to sound a bit far-fetched - something from Mission Impossible.
As for Ah-Bien’s stomach wound, the easiest conspiratorial method would be for the surgeon to have made it at the hospital. No need for a bullet. There was a lot of suspicion at the time why Chen wasn’t taken to nearby Chenggong University Hospital (which is the best in Tainan City) but rather to another hospital 7km away and owned by a good friend of his. Of course, you’ve got to find a surgeon willing to go along with this, so there’s another accomplice.
To me, the most suspicious things about the whole incident was how amazingly good the shooter was (if there was a shooter). Anyone here ever fired a pistol? At two targets in a moving vehicle? With the pistol hidden in your pocket or under a newspaper, rather than holding it at eye level? And managed to hit both targets, all with nobody noticing? Just amazing. I have trouble hitting those stationery cardboard cutouts from 30 feet (less than 10 meters) even when I have time to aim and use both hands. And to top it off, the alleged weapon was some homemade crap zip gun rather than a professional pistol like a Glock or Beretta. That shooter must have been like Antonio Banderas in Desperado.
The other suspicious thing is, like already mentioned, Ah-Bien walking from the jeep into the emergency room. I’ve never been shot, but I’ve been in some motorcycle accidents and brought to the emergency room - you just don’t hop out of the car and walk after something like that. You let them put you on the wheeled stretcher and bring you inside. Even if the wounds later turn out to be relatively benign, you just don’t know that when you’ve arrived at the hospital - you’re hurt, bleeding, in shock, you wait and let the staff take care of you. Of course, if you knew in advance that your wounds (if any) were only superficial, you can walk and flash a V-for-victory sign.
My conclusion - I still don’t know. Either it was staged by Ah-Bien and a circle of co-conspirators who have all managed to keep their mouths shut, or we have one very lucky shooter and Ah-Bien was so obsessed with electoral fever that he wasn’t fazed even by a bullet wound. Make of that what you will.
cheers,
DB
Last bit, ever see the video how Ronald Reagan actually walked after being shot ?He almost died right after that.
Amazingly good? He shot the windshield and the bullets were deflected into their targets. Yeah, great shot. Aim at the window. :roflmao:
Here’s the wiki pic just a few minutes before the shots. Notice the ample amount of target above the window? 
The bullet(s) could have ricocheted or fragmented into pieces or the glass could also have cut Lu. Where is Henry Lu again?
Any one can tell you that a hand gun is and a moving target-- almost a very difficult shot.
The bullets could also have entered the 5th dimension and gone back to 1963 to also murder Kennedy. Wow, imagine that. Chen and Kennedy linked by the same bullet. Taiwan and America, joined by their collective political sorrows. That was about the time Barbies were all made in Taiwan too. I bet the bullet was smuggled in under the skirt of Mid-west Barbie. It’s the only Barbie wearing enough clothes to conceal a bullet.
Amazingly good? He shot the windshield and the bullets were deflected into their targets. Yeah, great shot. Aim at the window. :roflmao:
Here’s the wiki pic just a few minutes before the shots. Notice the ample amount of target above the window?
[/quote]
Your pic makes me more suspicious about Chen. I could see how a fragmented piece of glass from the damaged windshield of the forward-moving jeep could have caught Annette Lu in the leg. If I remember correctly, she had one small wound on the front of her leg.
But I see somebody standing on both sides of Chen. So you’re saying that the bullet hit the glass, turned 90 degrees and as it approached one side of Chen, turned 90 degrees again and grazed across his stomach before stopping in his pocket. Yes, I’ll say it again, that shooter was absolutely amazing! He managed an S-shaped shot! Somebody ought to contact Guinness.
Really? So you are saying you have all these suspicions and theories about the case but have never even seen any pics or footage from the event?
Btw, you can’t see it clearly but this is the dress Lu was wearing (in green of course):
Really? So you are saying you have all these suspicions and theories about the case but have never even seen any pics or footage from the event?[/quote]
No, I’m saying I haven’t looked at that photo for eight years. And MM’s theory about the bullet taking this tortuous path - I hadn’t heard that before. But I haven’t really paid all that much attention - unlike a lot of people here, I’m not obsessed about the 2004 election, and when this was all happening I wasn’t glued to the TV news, I did my best to ignore it. I’m not even convinced Ah-Bien staged this, though I think he’s the kind of moral cretin who would if he thought he could get away with it. It may just be that he really was shot and that’s all there was to it. But in that case, the shooter was just amazingly good, or lucky, which was my point.
I never saw that video, but I can believe he walked for a few seconds - before collapsing. It was ditto in my first motorcycle accident. For the first 10 seconds I still couldn’t believe what just happened, so I got up and walked. Then I collapsed. And I was in shock a few minutes later.
I did not claim that so many people were involved. There are only 6 people in the jeep. That’s not so many people. Perhaps at least 2 NSB bodyguards on CSB’s side of the jeep are in on it, and that’s it. As far as I know, the NSB bodyguards on the lefthand side of the jeep do not appear to be in on it.
Later on, the police did not seal off the street right away, but that does not mean that they were in on it. That means they were simply ordered not to do so. Later on when NSB security agents collected digital cameras from the public as well as security video, that only means that they were ordered to do so. That does not mean that they know everything.
Does this make sense? There’s only a few people that know almost everything and the rest of the machinery is just ordered to do certain things without knowing the actual reason. In setting up the election fraud of 2004, the police force was ordered to do many things that they did not understand what the reason was for. I know that the head of police was ordered to threaten the media so that the exit poll would not be conducted based on the fact that the election was “too close to call”. However, once he learned that the election was not close and that A-bian was going to lose big time, he realized he was being used by the Presidential Office to commit election fraud.
There are other people in the government who knew because of their position that the CSB administration was going to cheat. Not because they were in on it but because it was obvious from their point of view. Despite the fact that there was knowledge of it, the KMT party was still unprepared for it because the simple fact that the upper level KMT party people and especially the ones in charge of monitors does not personally believe that the KMT could get cheated like that. Even when the research was done after the election and presented to the KMT party, they still couldn’t believe that such things could happen. Things like monitors watching the referendum ballots and having their authority over-riden by the head of the voting station who is supposed to be neutral but often was not.
The DPP has this psychological advantage over the KMT party. The KMT party seems to be overconfident in their staff to protect them because of their network, but does not seem to be afraid their own system being undermined in ways that they did not do themselves while in power. The DPP party is extremely paranoid of cheating by the KMT and will say they are cheating even if they know the KMT isn’t actually cheating.
Pan blue supporters have this constant frustration with the over-confidence of the KMT party which was essentially vulnerable to a well-organized Chen government being run by Chiou I-Jen (who is very smart) and a Taipei County controlled by Su Tseng-Chang at that time. Not to mention many people inside the Taipei City Central Election Commission placed personally by Chen Shui-Bian who were not replaced by Ma Ying-Jeou later on.
So whether its the 319 incident or the election fraud, it’s not necessarily true that no one talked. They did talk. It’s that you didn’t hear it. I heard it. My circles are different than yours and your circles are different than mine. I’ve spoken to NSB people who were in Tainan that day and they gave me firsthand knowledge of the actions of people close to Chen that strongly suggest conspiracy and a cover-up of an incident that was not an assassination attempt. Have you had that experience? Of course, the people I’ve talked to just witnessed things but were not in on it. No one in on it would ever speak to me or anyone else who looked into 319.
So the minimum number of people that knew almost everything were the 6 people in the jeep, at least 2 more NSB agents on the right hand side of the jeep, Chi-Mei hospital director (only 1 person in Chi-Mei), Ministry of Foreign Affairs head Huang Zhi-Fang (who could barely contain his laughter during a press conference the afternoon of March 19), Pres. Office Sec. General Chiou I-Jen who knew almost everything that took place on March 19 and March 20.
That’s not an absurd number of people and at least one of those people spoke of the incident before the incident occurred. Chiou I-Jen himself. Another DPP county commissioner openly bragged about how the DPP would win via fraud before the election. I’m sure many more talked, but I just didn’t hear it.
Annette Lu is a much sneakier person that people give her credit for. She even wrote a book suggesting they tried to kill her and she was the ultimate victim of the incident. Sorry, there was only one victim. The dead guy. Lu and Chen got “reelected”. It’s not difficult to figure out who benefitted and who did not benefit from the entire incident.
One of the reasons I keep bringing up the election fraud is because its tied into the incident. The reason the incident occurred was because of the need to commit election fraud the next day and the gap needed to be reduced to make it more manageable and believable for them to win. Then everyone would point at the incident (real or fake) and say it was that. Chen would have had no legitimacy if the incident didn’t occur.
Remember in early 2008 when Chen and Lu were asked by reporters if another shooting incident or violent incident would occur before the next election between Ma and Hsieh? They were asked this by reporters and they said nothing would happen. Nothing would happen? How do they know that? If a lone nut-job shot them then they did not know it would happen. How do they know it won’t happen again? They essentially admitted to the public that they did stage the 2004 incident because they said they weren’t going to do it again in 2008. That’s another reason Ma was lucky. The tricks were basically up by 2008.
[quote=“headhonchoII”]@Betelnut- I don’t fully support that story you have woven as it is too complicated, I prefer the simple use low calibre bullet one shooter approach and keep it between a very select few people. You tend to have good knowledge of things but I think your conclusions can also be led by wishful thinking and a certain bias. You’ve got Annette Lu, bodyguards, large numbers of police, many detectives all working together actively to hid the truth. They pulled it off. Nobody talked.
I agree that the suicide was suspicious though.
@Fox- I agree Chen was shafted in some respects when you understand how corrupt most politicians are here, however as President he shouldn’t have tried to pocket so much cash and then he couldn’t have been shafted. His jail sentence was too severe in my opinion though.[/quote]
Oh, I forgot to mention the First Ladu Wu Su-Zhen definitely had knowledge of the incident because she sold a bunch of stock before the incident occurred because the stock market closes at 1:30 and the incident occurred at 1:45. The Chen family also paid out a large sum of money on the day of the incident via bank wire transfer. If you guys remember, the stock market crashed after the 2004 election.
Yes, it was all the sore-loser KMT people who believe in wild conspiracies instead of accepting the realities of democracy like the righteous DPP supporters on the other side of the spectrum that have the utmost respect for democracy because the name of their political party is called the “Democratic Progressive Party”. Therefore, the green supporters are inherently more democratic and should be going to heaven.
No, the real evidence is the fact she got an expensive hairdo that morning even though she had just had one the night before according to her hairdresser. Why? Because she knew she was going to be under intense media scrutiny that day and wanted to look her best.
It all add ups when you want it to.
No, the real evidence is the fact she got an expensive hairdo that morning even though she had just had one the night before according to her hairdresser. Why? Because she knew she was going to be under intense media scrutiny that day and wanted to look her best.
It all add ups when you want it to.[/quote]
If you fold the 20 dollar bill in the right way it shows a burning image of the twin towers, and 9+11= 20 OMG
Maybe the shooting is a failed assassination plot committed by the Chinese to try and install KMT leadership.
Betelnut, there is a well known phenomenon where the addition of new information does not help in reaching the right conclusion as to the cause of an event. I think you reached that a long time ago. Please re read your statements. They get more out there as you progress.
Now you say the 1st lady sold her stock JUST minutes before the shooting and then they conducted this fiasco of a shooting just to cover up election fraud the next day. You also say the hospital director was the only one to be in on it, so how could they prevent the possibility of other doctors or medical personnel observing Chen BEFORE he got treated, let alone after. Annette Lu, claims to be the target, well yes that fits with everything I have seen about her meaning she doesn’t like Chen getting all the limelight. Lu and Chen were not best buddies, you could tell that quite easily by her interviews and she seemed to get ignored a lot, there is no way I believe she was in on this shooting. Apart from that she is a woman and women usually don’t go for crazy ass shooting at themselves shit. Chen, yeah I can believe that.
Sorry I think the simpler explanation is easier to accept, either gunman with a grudge or a small shooting plot directed by Chen and his trusted aides personally.The purpose if Chen rigged it was to swing votes, not cover up election fraud!