Dear America....from your pal, Israel

Politics International Politics
21

Spare me the condescension. That is my forte if you don’t mind…

[quote]"The key political dimension of all this may be Iran’s recent emergence as the Asian-Middle Eastern-Islamic fulcrum of a loose grouping of states and people who wish to resist American dominance of the region and the world. I suspect that robust and successful political defiance, rather than pure military threat, is what most worries the United States about Iran’s posture. We are probably witnessing the first significant move in the world to challenge U.S. hegemonic power since the end of the Cold War in 1989 - which explains why Washington’s initial hysteria has been replaced recently by more realism, to its credit.

Iran’s more measured response to Western offers in recent weeks suggests it is securing that which it most covets: national respect, serious political engagement, and the prospect of a normal relationship with the West, without the American threat of regime change or the UN-EU threat of sanctions. Consequently, Iran and the Western powers seem to be heading to a logical meeting point: Iran will continue uranium conversion and enrichment activities, and other small-scale research and development, but under strict IAEA supervision that effectively blocks the development of nuclear weapons.

Tehran has spoken in recent weeks in the more relative and nuanced vocabulary of realism and national interest, rather than absolutist rights and ringing ideology. Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei in recent days has named a new foreign policy strategy team, headed by experienced loyalists, to control policy as the moment of decision approaches on a reasonable deal with the West. The implications of an agreement for the Middle East and the world will be enormous and mostly positive if this issue is resolved through a meeting of minds rather than the use of muscle."

– Rami G. Khouri, editor-at-large of the Beirut-based Daily Star, published throughout the Middle East with the International Herald Tribune.[/quote]

So, Germany, France and Britain are actively lobbying for sanctions against Iran because they want to preserve American hegenomy in the Middle East? Russia and China likewise have called for a cessation of uranium enrichment by Iran for the same reasons? None of us have any reason to worry about a nuclear Iran and it is all an American overreaction? now to preserve our hegenomy in the region or to protect Israel? Which is it?

AND like this particular writer, you believe that Iran’s nuclear program which it has been conducted stealthily and illegally (remember where are all the international law fans now?) for the better part of 20 years is what?

Do you believe that Iran is developing nukes or do you think that this has been all about civilian use all along? Do you believe that Iran should be allowed nuclear weapons? If no, should the US act militarily to prevent it from getting them?

22

I wouldn’t go so far as to say we act as proxy for them, but it in terms of having us by the balls, it’s eerily true. I remember reading about the Israel blowing up one of our listening ships because they decided to bomb Egypt in the 70s. Not only did they sink a ship that was clearly not a warship, clearly displaying American markings, and just sitting there, but they actually came back and machine gunned down our engineers in the water. It was either Blowback by Chamler’s Johnson or Body of Secrets by Bamford… I forget.

Anyway. I read it. Grunted in disgust. Then forgot about it for the most part until I started work in DC. More and more, I met people who, when Israel came up, would get a look of hatred on their face and mutter something about a story like this involving good friends that had died, and several times the very story I had read about.

I’m not one for dichotomies… but I have to say the bizarre web of relationships the US carries abroad leaves me scratching my head…

…Not that we’re the angels on the block either.

23

No. The comment was that Israel was a proxy for the US.

how so?

Oh Lord. Now, you have done it. The attack on the Liberty is a pet cause of Spook’s. Unfortunately, after investigation, it was never determined that the Israelis deliberately attacked. Many parties certainly believed that it had but there you are. Friendly fire in the heat of war or a deliberate attempt to sink a US ship that was going to do what exactly? prevent Israel from attacking Egypt? so it attacked its major ally to stop the ship from what? interfering with Israel’s plans? Does that sound plausible to you?

Has past US opposition stopped Israel from invading Lebanon? constructing the security fence? making attacks on Palestinian government offices? building settlements?

It was a tragic event but if you are going to find something to hate about Israel then talk about Pollack, the Israeli spy. THAT at least was something worth sinking one’s teeth into. Not sure, though, how many spies we have in Israel and how happy we would be to see them jailed for spying. It works both ways but Pollack should have remembered that he was a US citizen first and foremost. If he wanted to spy for Israel then he got what he deserved.

What is so difficult to understand. In Israel, we are faced with a democratic ally who supports our goals of peace and stability in the region. On the other hand, we have Assad in Syria, previously Saddam in Iraq, the whacko mullahs in Iran, kleptocracies in the Gulf, a modern-day pharaoh in Egypt, tribalists in Yemen, dictators in Sudan, Qaddafi in Libya, the thugocracy of the Palestinians and the socialist militarists vs. the Salafists in Algeria. Truly hard to understand the dichotomy of how and why we support Israel. It leaves me scratching something too but not my head.

…Not that we’re the angels on the block either.

24

The attack on the U.S.S. Liberty was never adequately investigated by the U.S. government. Don’t take my word for it. That’s the position of the crewmembers of the Liberty.

Why any American citizen such as Fred would accept the opposing version of events by the foreign government involved over that of the American servicemen who were attacked is a continuing mystery to me.

U.S. Naval Institute

"Since 1967, survivors have pleaded for a more far-reaching government inquiry into the incident. But Judge Cristol argues that another would be a waste of time. Some 13 already have been conducted (five by Congress, one by the U.S. Navy, and several by Israel). And according to Cristol, while typically citing recklessness or inefficiency, all exonerate the Israeli attackers of deliberate intent.

“False!” retorts Ennes. Of the 13 investigations cited by Judge Cristol, Ennes observes, "Most were not investigations. . . . They were merely reports to the boss from advisors . . . (and) mostly summaries and excerpts of the Naval Court of Inquiry report."8

Clark Clifford, Chairman of President Lyndon B. Johnson’s Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board, drafted one such inquiry. Judge Cristol characterizes Clifford as angry, but finding Israel innocent of murder. Ennes infers darker meanings from the same document.

“Something had gone terribly wrong,” Clifford wrote the President, “and then it had been covered up. I never felt the Israelis had made adequate restitution or explanation for their . . . unprovoked actions.” Clifford also termed “unbelievable” the explanation that the attack was accidental. The Liberty’s spotters, for example, had picked out the MTBs’ small hull marks, yet the Israeli attackers claimed never to have seen the U.S. ship’s much larger ones. Clifford, an intimate of Johnson’s and champion of Israel, urged the attackers be “punished,” as did U.S. Secretary of State Dean Rusk, noting there was "every reason to believe that the USS Liberty was identified, or at least her nationality determined . . . one hour before the attack."9

But instead of punishing the attackers, Israel honors them in a museum. Told of the display, retired Air Force Major General John Morrison, NSA deputy director for operations at the time, commented, “I am offended by that.” And retired Army Lieutenant General William Odom, NSA director from 1985 to 1988, and also unaware of the display, remarked, "I am astonished that Israel should put glory on the people who killed my SigInt-ers [signals intelligence personnel].“10 The Liberty’s blood-stained flag is exhibited at the National Cryptologic Museum in Fort Meade, Maryland.”

25

Like clockwork… Gosh Spook, did the mention of the LIberty get your attention? What a surprise?

Now, let’s look at the “goods” that Spook is providing from a site that is highly favorable to his interpretation of the events…

Yes, I realize that this is their view. I sympathize.

[quote]Why any American citizen such as Fred would accept the opposing version of events by the foreign government involved over that of the American servicemen who were attacked is a continuing mystery to me.

U.S. Naval Institute

"Since 1967, survivors have pleaded for a more far-reaching government inquiry into the incident. But Judge Cristol argues that another would be a waste of time.
Some 13 already have been conducted (five by Congress, one by the U.S. Navy, and several by Israel).
And according to Cristol, while typically citing recklessness or inefficiency,
all exonerate the Israeli attackers of deliberate intent.

“False!” retorts Ennes. Of the 13 investigations cited by Judge Cristol, Ennes observes, "Most were not investigations. . . . They were merely reports to the boss from advisors . . . (and) mostly summaries and excerpts of the Naval Court of Inquiry report."8

Clark Clifford, Chairman of President Lyndon B. Johnson’s Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board, drafted one such inquiry. Judge Cristol characterizes Clifford as angry, but finding Israel innocent of murder. Ennes infers darker meanings from the same document.[/quote]

The survivors and Ennes can believe whatever they want, but until I see proof of a coverup, guess what? I ain’t buying it. And this has already been addressed as mentioned 13 times. Now, Ennes can be upset that the conclusions each of the 13 times did not reach the same end result as his own but there is nothing that we can do about that now is there.

Now, this is ONE attack that killed how many Americans? It occurred in 1967. Now, we have had 3,000 smoked recently in an attack on the World Trade Center and numerous other attacks on our servicemen in Yemen, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Iraq by Islamofascists and who gets Spook’s attention? The Israelis for their attack on the Liberty which the US and Israeli governments have determined in 13 separate incidents was reckless but not deliberate.

So let’s get to the real point. Why so much anguish over something that occurred nearly 40 years ago? Is this a regular ongoing event? Israel attacking American targets? Is there confusion over whether it was deliberate or is it an open and shut case? Now, then, what is the normal advice that we get from Spook about how to deal with the terrorists (Islamofascists)? Leave their countries alone and stop “provoking” them, right?

Spook: Why don’t you smell what you are shoveling and get some help.

Shall we also endlessly replay the US missile attack on the passenger jet in Iran. Do you believe that it was a deliberate attack as well? We also have numerous examples of friendly fire by US forces on its own troops or allied troops all with unified communication and control protocols and vastly superior technology to that which existed in 1967 but … we are to conclude what? that accidents can never happen? that the situation was not highly charged? that the incident involved was reckless? and therefore it follows that it was deliberate?

The truth of the matter is that the far worse attacks on the US are ignored by Spook while questionable claims such as the one involving the Liberty are exaggerated for what? To fit the facts to suit Spook’s true interest which is not protecting American lives or American interests but in attacking THEM and we all know who I mean by that don’t we?

26

I don’t know about anyone else here but it’s just unbelievable to me that a U.S. citizen would parrot the position of a foreign government and denigrate U.S. servicemen victimized by that government.

I just don’t get it.

27

So the US Navy and US Congress are complicit in this effort to “parrot” the position of a foreign government and “denigrate” US servicemen? I hardly think so. Why do you think that I would do such a thing Spook?

Truer words were never spoken but you have to realize that you have a problem first, admit it and then seek help, professional help… good luck with that…

28

So the US Navy and US Congress are complicit in this effort to “parrot” the position of a foreign government and “denigrate” US servicemen? I hardly think so. Why do you think that I would do such a thing Spook?

Truer words were never spoken but you have to realize that you have a problem first, admit it and then seek help, professional help… good luck with that…[/quote]

I support the position of the U.S.S. Liberty crew. If they ever conclude they’ve finally been treated fairly, then case close as far as I’m concerned. Should I be ashamed of that position for some reason? No, I’m not.

    "I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. . . . Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous "
      -- US Secretary of State Dean Rusk
	

    "...the board of inquiry (concluded) that the Israelis knew exactly what they were doing in attacking the Liberty."
      -- CIA Director Richard Helms
	

    "I can tell you for an absolute certainty (from intercepted communications) that the Israelis knew they were attacking an American ship."
      -- NSA Deputy Director Oliver Kirby
	

     "That the Liberty could have been mistaken for the Egyptian supply ship El Quseir is unbelievable"
      -- Special Assistant to the President Clark Clifford, in his report to President Lyndon Johnson
	

    "The highest officials of the [Johnson] administration, including the President, believed it 'inconceivable' that Israel's 'skilled' defense forces could have committed such a gross error."
    -- Lyndon Johnson's biographer Robert Dallek in Flawed Giant, Oxford University Press, 1998, pp. 430-31)
	

    "A nice whitewash for a group of ignorant, stupid and inept [expletive deleted]."
      -- Handwritten note of August 26, 1967, by NSA Deputy Director Louis W. Tordella reacting to the Israeli court decision exonerating Israelis of blame for the Liberty attack.
	

    "Never before in the history of the United States Navy has a Navy Board of Inquiry ignored the testimony of American military eyewitnesses and taken, on faith, the word of their attackers.
      -- Captain Richard F. Kiepfer, Medical Corps, US Navy (retired), USS Liberty Survivor
	

    "The evidence was clear. Both Admiral Kidd and I believed with certainty that this attack...was a deliberate effort to sink an American ship and murder its entire crew.... It was our shared belief. . .that the attack. . .could not possibly have been an accident.... I am certain that the Israeli pilots [and] their superiors. . .were well aware that the ship was American."
      -- Captain Ward Boston, JAGC, US Navy (retired), senior legal counsel to the US Navy Court of Inquiry
	

    That the attack was deliberate "just wasn't a disputed issue" within the National Security Agency
      -- Former NSA Director retired Army Lieutenant General William Odom on 3 March 2003 in an interview for Naval Institute Proceedings
	

    Former NSA/CIA Director Admiral Bobby Inman "flatly rejected" the Cristol/Israeli claims that the attack was an accident
      -- 5 March 2003 interview for Naval Institute Proceedings
	

    Of four former NSA/CIA seniors with inside knowledge, none was aware of any agency official who dissented from the position that the attack was deliberate
      -- David Walsh, writing in Naval Institute Proceedings
	

    "It appears to me that it was not a pure case of mistaken identity."
    -- Captain William L. McGonagle, Commanding Officer, USS Liberty, speaking at Arlington National Cemetery, June 8, 1997	
	

     "To suggest that they [the IDF] couldn't identify the ship is ... ridiculous. ... Anybody who could not identify the Liberty could not tell the difference between the White House and the Washington Monument."
      -- Admiral Thomas Moorer, Chief of Naval Operations and later Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff, quoted in The Washington Post, June 15, 1991, p. 14
29

Fine. Then can you explain to me how despite all of these opinions by high-ranking US government officials that five Congressional reports go nowhere? Who is to blame? Who made these decisions based on the findings that they had? And why then was Israel exonerated?

AND after you are through with that, can you cfm whether any subsequent attacks by Israeli forces have occurred? And given that you are so concerned about the deaths of US servicemen, then you should be highly incensed by the actions of the Islamofascists and the Iraqis under Saddam who frequently fired deliberately on our forces. What then was your suggestion again about how to deal with them?

30

I want to make it clear that I wish Israel no ill will. It faces a ruthless enemy in Islamic terrorism and the essential concept of Israel as a haven for an historically oppressed people is a noble one.

You can’t serve two masters though and in the end my loyalties are to the United States and only the United States.

31

I am sure that your sentiment would be appreciated if there were any Israelis on this forum. Relevance?

Groovy. Relevance?

As are mine. To the US alone though sometimes I am highly partial to Argentina. So answer the question. What happened with the Congressional findings if five reports went no where. You certainly do have a most impressive cast of top officials who obviously have made some very strong statements about the attack. Why then did the Congress find nothing deliberate about the Israeli attack? Why was Israel exonerated?

32

You might want to take some time to read the statement by the crewmembers of the U.S.S. Liberty on their website for answers to your questions. From their website:

"In 2003, an independent commission of highly regarded experts was created to look into the matter. The Commission consisted of Admiral Thomas H. Moorer, United States Navy (Ret.), Former Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff; General Raymond G. Davis, United States Marine Corps, (MOH), Former Assistant Commandant of The Marine Corps; Rear Admiral Merlin Staring, United States Navy (Ret.), Former Judge Advocate General Of The Navy; and Ambassador James Akins (Ret.), Former United States Ambassador to Saudi Arabia.

The “Moorer Commission” (Chaired by Adm. Moorer) investigated the attack and made the following findings:

"We, the undersigned, having undertaken an independent investigation of Israel’s attack on USS Liberty, including eyewitness testimony from surviving crewmembers, a review of naval and other official records, an examination of official statements by the Israeli and American governments, a study of the conclusions of all previous official inquiries, and a consideration of important new evidence and recent statements from individuals having direct knowledge of the attack or the cover up, hereby find the following:

  1. That on June 8, 1967, after eight hours of aerial surveillance, Israel launched a two-hour air and naval attack against USS Liberty, the world’s most sophisticated intelligence ship, inflicting 34 dead and 173 wounded American servicemen (a casualty rate of seventy percent, in a crew of 294);

  2. That the Israeli air attack lasted approximately 25 minutes, during which time unmarked Israeli aircraft dropped napalm canisters on USS Liberty’s bridge, and fired 30mm cannons and rockets into our ship, causing 821 holes, more than 100 of which were rocket-size; survivors estimate 30 or more sorties were flown over the ship by a minimum of 12 attacking Israeli planes which were jamming all five American emergency radio channels;

  3. That the torpedo boat attack involved not only the firing of torpedoes, but the machine-gunning of Liberty’s firefighters and stretcher-bearers as they struggled to save their ship and crew; the Israeli torpedo boats later returned to machine-gun at close range three of the Liberty’s life rafts that had been lowered into the water by survivors to rescue the most seriously wounded;

  4. That there is compelling evidence that Israel’s attack was a deliberate attempt to destroy an American ship and kill her entire crew; evidence of such intent is supported by statements from Secretary of State Dean Rusk, Undersecretary of State George Ball, former CIA director Richard Helms, former NSA directors Lieutenant General William Odom, USA (Ret.), Admiral Bobby Ray Inman, USN (Ret.), and Marshal Carter; former NSA deputy directors Oliver Kirby and Major General John Morrison, USAF (Ret.); and former Ambassador Dwight Porter, U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon in 1967;

  5. That in attacking USS Liberty, Israel committed acts of murder against American servicemen and an act of war against the United States;

  6. That fearing conflict with Israel, the White House deliberately prevented the U.S. Navy from coming to the defense of USS Liberty by recalling Sixth Fleet military rescue support while the ship was under attack; evidence of the recall of rescue aircraft is supported by statements of Captain Joe Tully, Commanding Officer of the aircraft carrier USS Saratoga, and Rear Admiral Lawrence Geis, the Sixth Fleet carrier division commander, at the time of the attack; never before in American naval history has a rescue mission been cancelled when an American ship was under attack;

  7. That although Liberty was saved from almost certain destruction through the heroic efforts of the ship’s Captain, William L. McGonagle (MOH), and his brave crew, surviving crewmembers were later threatened with “court-martial, imprisonment or worse” if they exposed the truth; and were abandoned by their own government;

  8. That due to the influence of Israel’s powerful supporters in the United States, the White House deliberately covered up the facts of this attack from the American people;

[b]9. That due to continuing pressure by the pro-Israel lobby in the United States, this attack remains the only serious naval incident that has never been thoroughly investigated by Congress; to this day, no surviving crewmember has been permitted to officially and publicly testify about the attack;

  1. That there has been an official cover-up without precedent in American naval history; the existence of such a cover-up is now supported by statements of Rear Admiral Merlin Staring, USN (Ret.), former Judge Advocate General of the Navy; and Captain Ward Boston, USN, (Ret.), the chief counsel to the Navy’s 1967 Court of Inquiry of Liberty attack;

  2. That the truth about Israel’s attack and subsequent White House cover-up continues to be officially concealed from the American people to the present day and is a national disgrace;
    [/b]

  3. That a danger to our national security exists whenever our elected officials are willing to subordinate American interests to those of any foreign nation, and specifically are unwilling to challenge Israel’s interests when they conflict with American interests; this policy, evidenced by the failure to defend USS Liberty and the subsequent official cover-up of the Israeli attack, endangers the safety of Americans and the security of the United States.

WHEREUPON, we, the undersigned, in order to fulfill our duty to the brave crew of USS Liberty and to all Americans who are asked to serve in our Armed Forces, hereby call upon the Department of the Navy, the Congress of the United States and the American people to immediately take the following actions:

FIRST: That a new Court of Inquiry be convened by the Department of the Navy, operating with Congressional oversight, to take public testimony from surviving crewmembers; and to thoroughly investigate the circumstances of the attack on the USS Liberty, with full cooperation from the National Security Agency, the Central Intelligence Agency and the military intelligence services, and to determine Israel’s possible motive in launching said attack on a U.S. naval vessel;

SECOND: That every appropriate committee of the Congress of the United States investigate the actions of the White House and Defense Department that prevented the rescue of the USS Liberty, thereafter threatened her surviving officers and men if they exposed the truth, and covered up the true circumstances of the attack from the American people; and

THIRD: That the eighth day of June of every year be proclaimed to be hereafter known as

USS LIBERTY REMEMBRANCE DAY, in order to commemorate USS Liberty’s heroic crew; and to educate the American people of the danger to our national security inherent in any passionate attachment of our elected officials for any foreign nation.

We, the undersigned, hereby affix our hands and seals, this 22nd day of October, 2003.

Admiral Thomas H. Moorer, USN, Ret.
Former Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff

General of Marines Raymond G. Davis, USMC, MOH

Former Commandant of the United States Marine Corps

Merlin Staring
Rear Admiral Merlin Staring, USN, Ret.,
Former Judge Advocate General of the Navy,

James Akins
Ambassador James Akins, Ret.,
Former United States Ambassador to Saudi Arabia"

33

Check this out Spook. Seems quite balanced to me and it addresses several of your points. Again, why all the sputtering over the attack on the Liberty and so little about the Cole? This was fairly recent as you may recall and it killed quite a few Americans.

34

Check this out Spook. Seems quite balanced to me and it addresses several of your points. Again, why all the sputtering over the attack on the Liberty and so little about the Cole? This was fairly recent as you may recall and it killed quite a few Americans.[/quote]

Now neoconservatives are resorting to Wikipedia to back up their arguments? That’s rich. Where’s Taiwan Cowboy when you need him?

It’s silly to equate the Liberty and the Cole. We both agree that those who attacked the Cole are our enemy and should be hunted down and flattened. There’s no such agreement between us concerning those who attacked the Liberty though (at far greater loss of life than the attack on the U.S.S. Cole I might add).

35

Here’s Cristol’s response to these allegations by the members of the USS Liberty…

israelnewsagency.com/usslibe … 10034.html

I realize that it is in an interview with an Israeli news agency but I imagine that it will not necessarily change the perception among those who already see a “conspiracy” behind the “coverup.”

[quote]NSA Confirms Israel USS Liberty Attack Was Accident

By Joel Leyden

Jerusalem----January 11…Much propaganda has been thrown against Israel in the “information war” but no subject is highlighted more than a tragic friendly-fire incident which occurred between Israel and the US almost 40 years ago. US Florida Judge Jay Cristol was responsible for having successfully petitioned the NSA to release US data confirming the accident. Cristol believes that Israel’s enemies have tried to use this incident for decades to create a wedge between Washington and Jerusalem. Judge Cristol, in an exclusive interview with the Israel News Agency explains what happened to the USS Liberty and discusses the relevance of the new information released by the US National Security Agency.

Judge Cristol: “On the fourth day of the Six Day War, June 8, 1967, the USS Liberty, a U.S. Navy intelligence gatherer, failed to receive orders to stay clear of the combat zone and sailed into the middle of the Six Day War.” Cristol continues: “On the previous day, Israeli forces in the Sinai, near El Arish, had reported being shelled from the sea by a ship. Explosions around El Arish led the army to think it was happening again. They saw a grey warship near the horizon and reported it to headquarters (the Karya). The Israeli Navy sent motor torpedo boats to investigate. Through a series of additional errors, they determined that they could not overtake the ship which was steering toward Port Said. They called for air and the Israeli Air Force was sent to locate and attack a hostile warship off El Arish.” “Twelve or fourteen minutes into the air attack the flight leader of Royal Flight (2 Super Mystere) noticed the ship’s hull markings were not in Arabic script. The Air Force stopped the attack. Soon thereafter the motor torpedo boats arrived. They stopped and began to signal the ship which was now smoking as a result of the air attack. The ship, the Liberty, began firing at the torpedo boats which convinced them she was hostile and commenced a torpedo attack. The ship was identified as hostile, Egyptian, Soviet, Egyptian again and ultimately American. The identification as American took place between 3:07 and 3:12 p.m. about 40 minutes after the attacks were over. The second Israeli helicopter pilot observed and confirmed an American flag,” said Cristol.

“For years conspiracy theorists have claimed that audio tapes existed of the Israeli pilots identifying the ship as American before they attacked. There are other conspiracy claims that the Liberty radio compartment made such interceptions and that the U.S. submarine Amberjack had gathered damning evidence during the attack by means of its periscope.” “On July 2, 2003, as a result of my lawsuit using the Freedom of Information Act, the National Security Agency made two significant admissions. First, that there had been no radio intercepts made by the USS Liberty. Second, that there had been no radio intercepts made by the US submarine Amberjack. And finally, the National Security Agency released copies of the recordings it made from an EC-121 aircraft in the vicinity of the attacks during the time periods 2:30 p.m. Sinai time to 3:27 p.m. Sinai time. These tapes contain nothing to support the prior conspiracy claims and show that the helicopters were first dispatched to rescue Egyptians, and then demonstrate the confusion as to the identification of the target ship.”

Cristol adds: “The tapes confirm that the helicopter pilot observed the flag at 3:12 p.m. This perfectly dove-tails with the audio tapes which the Israel Air Force released to Judge Cristol of the radio transmissions before, during and after the attack. The English translations of those tapes are published in Appendix 2, of Judge Cristol’s book “The Liberty Incident”. The NSA tapes are the last significant piece of evidence which remained classified until now. They clearly corroborates the Israeli Air Force tapes and support the decisions of ten official U.S. investigations and 3 or more official Israeli investigations, all of which concluded that the tragic event was a case of mistaken identity.”

"As Admiral “Bud” Edney, former NATO supreme allied commander, Atlantic; and commander in chief, U.S. Atlantic command, stated, “Only those with an ulterior motive can still cling to the conspiracy theories after Judge Jay Cristol’s excellent coverage documents each detail that led to the tragic mistaken attack.”

Israel News Agency: Judge, what motivated you to get involved in this research project?

AJC: When I was appointed a federal judge I began taking courses in international affairs at the Graduate School of International Affairs at the University of Miami. My initial interest was in terrorism. One day Dr. Haim Shaked suggested that with my background as a naval aviator, navy lawyer, lecturer for the Department of Defense on law of naval warfare, civilian lawyer and federal judge, I was qualified to research and write on the Liberty incident. At first I resisted, arguing “that was more than 20 years ago”. But I was soon shown how active the conspiracy theorists and hate mongers were about keeping the story alive. I started a one year project as a masters degree which developed into 10 years and a Ph.D. My doctoral dissertation is on file in the Library of Congress. I then spent 3 more years writing my book “The Liberty Incident”. I now have 16 years on the project and the largest collection in the world of research materials on this subject. The Hoover Institution at Stanford University has requested my research material for their archives. I have gifted it to them and am in the process of sending it to them.

Israel News Agency: Why has this matter remained alive for 36 years?

AJC: The victims of the tragedy are typical of victims of friendly fire. They find it difficult to believe that they were wounded or their buddies were killed by mistake. In this case the victims have been imposed upon, used and abused by groups with their own agendas. First, are those who are on the Arab side of the Arab/Israeli conflict and who try to use the tragedy to drive a wedge into the otherwise excellent relationship between the United States and Israel. Next are those persons who are anti-Semitic or anti-Israel. And finally there are the conspiracy buffs. For the reasons indicated these three groups have continued to probe the wounds of the victims for their own purposes and are not concerned with healing or closure.

Israel News Agency: How important is the release of the audio tapes by the National Security Agency?

AJC: The release of the NSA tapes is extremely important because it provides additional evidence that has been solely in the hands of the United States and therefore cannot be challenged as having been modified or altered by Israeli intelligence services. In addition, it corroborates the Israeli Air Force tapes as the material dove-tails with the information on those tapes.

Israel News Agency: Why do many of the conspiracy theorists continue to demand a United States Congressional investigation and is such an investigation appropriate?

AJC: The goal is simply to provide a platform for propaganda. There have been ten official U.S. investigations. Five of them were Congressional. They all reached the same conclusion that the incident was a tragic mistake. Eight United States Presidents: Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush (41), Clinton, and Bush (43) have supported and adopted these conclusions. In fact, the current President of the United States, George W. Bush, through White House staff, issued a letter in October 2002 indicating his position that no further investigation of this incident was needed.

Israel News Agency: Would you comment on the claims of author James Bamford that the Liberty was attacked to prevent the United States from learning of massacres of Egyptian prisoners in the Sinai?

AJC: Mr. Bamford provides as his source of this claim two Israeli journalists, both of whom have denied statements attributed to them by Bamford. First, it is literally impossible for an electronic intelligence gatherer to overhear murders taking place in a desert more than a dozen miles away. The Sinai was returned to Egypt in 1973. Egypt has made no claim that such murders took place. No mass graves have been located and no Egyptian soldiers from the '67 war are missing or unaccounted for. Mr. Bamford writings are much closer to fiction than to history.

Israel News Agency: Are all the former crew-members of the USS Liberty unanimous in their belief in conspiracy theories?

AJC: Absolutely not. The spectrum of opinions is quite varied from those who are rabid conspiracy theory supporters to others who accept the fact that the tragedy was the result of both Israeli and U.S. mistakes. I have been asked for the names of crew-members who accept the mistake theory but have declined to name anyone as I have no intention of creating animosity among shipmates.

Israel News Agency: The Liberty Veteran’s Association appears to be very active in support of conspiracy theories. How is the association organized and are all former Liberty crew-members members of the Association?

AJC: There are many crew-members that have never joined the Association. The Association was founded with the assistance of two former United States Congressman, Paul Findley of Illinois, the first U.S. Congressman to espouse the PLO, and Paul N. “Pete” McCloskey, who is well known for his anti-Israel sentiments. McCloskey drafted the incorporation papers for the Association and also served as legal advisor to the Association. He has spoken at Holocaust denial organization conferences. He and Findley, together with three other former congresspersons, established the Council for the National Interest, CNI, an organization whose avowed purposes (according to their own press release) was to be an anti-Israel lobby.

©All Rights Reserved 2004 Israel News Agency[/quote]

36

I am sorry did I miss something regarding Wikipedia? I have seen it used as a source repeatedly and accepted it. Is there a reason why I should not do so?

Good. I am glad that you see the attacks on the Cole as not being the same as the ones on the Liberty. When I see incontrovertible evidence that Israel engaged in a deliberate action, it may change my view. But I am highly suspicious of controversies that claim to involve coverups at the highest level. Nine presidents including Bush have concluded that there is nothing to warrant any view that the Israelis acted deliberately or that there was a coverup. Yet, you seem to believe that there is and for that I cannot help you. You believe that Israel controls our foreign policy and would have sufficient clout to be able to get nine presidents to disregard facts that showed that US citizens were killed deliberately. THIS of course despite the fact that during the 1967 war, we were NOT the major ally and supplier of weapons and military equipment to Israel. France was. So, er, we were so deeply in the pockets of the Jewish lobby that it could not convince us to sell weapons to Israel, but it could make nine presidents cover up the deliberate killing of US forces? This is why I really do think that you should get help for this obsession.

What you are essentially asking me to do, (do you realize this?), is to believe that ONE foreign government (which itself fights doggedly among its many factions) which possesses NO oil or resources worthy of attention which is religiously tied to 2 percent or less of the American population (most of whom are hopelessly divided along the political spectrum) is able to exert such concerted action as to subvert Democrat and Republican presidents alike as well as to do so with the complicity of Congress and the upper reaches of the military forces with the active wink wink nod nod tacit acceptance that this will be how business is done in Washington by a coopted media that otherwise chooses to engage in relentless sniping in EVERY single other sector EXCEPT Israel and the Jews?

I should believe this despite seeing declassified documents that continue to show this as the incident of miscommunication and a fup of the most royal sort. I should believe that rather than an unfortunate example of the fups that go on during wars, that Israel had a vested interest in attacking a ship belonging to the most powerful military on earth to, er, stop it from invading the Golan which it did anyway despite failing to sink the ship that was supposed to have been detecting movements in just such an area. AND that the US government and its military were complicit in covering this up because they were coopted by Jewish lobbies in the US? Can you see how incredible this would be to someone who was still left with some rational senses?

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"Israel News Agency: Are all the former crew-members of the USS Liberty unanimous in their belief in conspiracy theories?

AJC: Absolutely not. The spectrum of opinions is quite varied from those who are rabid conspiracy theory supporters to others who accept the fact that the tragedy was the result of both Israeli and U.S. mistakes. I have been asked for the names of crew-members who accept the mistake theory but have declined to name anyone as I have no intention of creating animosity among shipmates."

I spoke with one of the surviving crew members of the U.S.S. Liberty, Joe Meadors, and asked him if any crew members believed the Israeli story that the attack was accidental. He told me only one member of the crew disagrees with the rest that their ship was deliberately attacked by Israel air and naval forces but has never explained why he disagrees and won’t talk about it.

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[quote=“spook”]Where’s Taiwan Cowboy when you need him?[/quote]I’m right here spook…hovering in the ether. Mr. Smiths article posted above lays to rest the hub bub…bub.

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So you’re another “friend of Israel” who doesn’t believe the crew of the U.S.S. Liberty either or that they should have a chance to be heard in an official inquiry?

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[quote]"Israel News Agency: Are all the former crew-members of the USS Liberty unanimous in their belief in conspiracy theories?

AJC: Absolutely not. The spectrum of opinions is quite varied from those who are rabid conspiracy theory supporters to others who accept the fact that the tragedy was the result of both Israeli and U.S. mistakes. I have been asked for the names of crew-members who accept the mistake theory but have declined to name anyone as I have no intention of creating animosity among shipmates."

I spoke with one of the surviving crew members of the U.S.S. Liberty, Joe Meadors, and asked him if any crew members believed the Israeli story that the attack was accidental. He told me only one member of the crew disagrees with the rest that their ship was deliberately attacked by Israel air and naval forces but has never explained why he disagrees and won’t talk about it.[/quote]

This is ONE of MANY points. Why should we not believe that some are intimidated by the leadership and have therefore signed on without really wanting to? Again, this is the smallest of all the points for me. Please refer to the declassified NSC tapes that really did it for me.

Again, see my point above. You are asking me to believe that Israel is capable of getting nine US presidents to cover something up? because of their untoward influence over us? And that the Congress will roll over and support this along with the active complicity of the media? And all because Israel is involved even though the media is more than happy to put our soldiers at risk by frequently revealing information that is highly useful to the enemy?

I am inclined to support Israel as a free, democratic nation that shares our values. Until I see something that would even remotely support such an outrageous view that our leaders could be thus coopted, I remain unconvinced. My past history of discussions with you has also made me more than aware of your “interests” in this area and I do not seem them as being unbiased or objective. Please explain to me, assuming you believe that I have any sort of objectivity on this subject, why I should believe such an incredible story? NINE presidents! NINE Administrations with rabid congressional leaders that often oppose them, all working together to cover this up! Along with the active complicity of our military leaders! and the media swallows it all! Think of it!