Dear America....from your pal, Israel

Who’s the “other” friend of Israel that goes along with this “another?” Are you referring to me? Why am I a friend of Israel? Is it because I do not believe that our leaders are so easily coopted by foreign governments. If you wanted to worry about coopting, check out the history of Saudi Arabian official employment of past US government officials. If you wanted to be obsessed and paranoid, why doesn’t that worry you?

It is not a question of believe or disbelieve with regard to the views of the crew but accepting that what they know is not the entire picture.

How many more “official” enquiries are needed? Hell, if it will get you to finally be satisfied about this, then by all means, let’s have another enquiry but if you want me to believe that the US government has sat on this during nine different administrations with the complicity of nine presidents, nine administrations, nine different congresses and nine different sets of military and diplomatic leaders all while our “easily muzzled” press remains silent, haha, you have really got to do better than this to convince me…

Eyewitness account of Americo Aimetti who was a Petty Officer 3rd class aboard the USS Liberty (AGTR-5), an intelligence ship

Great Spook:

The more eyewitnesses the better… BUT this is yet another person onboard the Liberty right? Please understand that while I am sympathetic, no one on the Liberty had access to ALL the information such as communications on the Israeli, American sides by other ships, etc.

So please respond to this question since it is most important to me: Why should I believe that 9 presidents have been coopted by Israel? Why should I believe that 9 administrations were convinced to cover this up because of Israel along with the security and military leaders, Congress and the media?

So you’re another “friend of Israel” [/quote] Spook -
I have no problem with that label. Those who would find it derisive usually are “friends” of groups or countries I am in opposition with.[quote=“spook”]"…who doesn’t believe the crew of the U.S.S. Liberty either or that they should have a chance to be heard in an official inquiry?[/quote]Ridiculous. As has been repeatedly shown, this has not been the case.
Its good to have a cause to champion. Might I suggest you find one with better chances for success.

"Immediately following the attack I was threatened with court-martial if I discussed the incident with the press or anyone else. One of the warnings was also not to discuss the attack even with my immediate family or friends. In my case these warnings were repeated upon my transfer from each duty station I left along with the standard security clearance de-briefing. I was also periodically taken aside and reminded of the original threat even when not being transferred. Though never told the reason for these one on one “advisory” sessions, I personnaly believe they were the result of some action that raised the possibility of further publicity that our government wanted to surpress.

I want no personal recognition, but I will not rest until the 34 brave men that sacrificed their lives are finally given the long overdue honor they so justly deserve. Hopefully with the help of all concerned this long denied justice will be forthcoming in the not so distant future."
– Ken Ecker, seaman, USS Liberty

Seems to be a funny refrain in our history, doesn’t it? It doesn’t take too creative an imagination to imagine how notions of justice quickly get replaced by politics once a matter has elevated to a certain branch of our government. The Machiavellian foxes running the place just see too many potential political problems and too many potential political wins ahead if they chart their own course to justics instead of following the default prescribed route.

Ever wonder why there was little to no investigation of the physical evidence of the debris on 9/11?

Are you kidding me? I thought Saddam was a horrible despot just as much as the next guy, but come on.

Are you telling me that if Iraq flew military mitions over our airspace we would not shoot them down? We’re planning on (I support this 100%) shooting NK’s missile down if they test fire it over international waters… I have a feeling we’d get even more agitated if it was our own airspace another country was holding military operations in.

Again, I totally support those US operations, I just think the point you’re trying to make doesn’t really fit the example well. :slight_smile:

trai·tor

1 : one who betrays another’s trust or is false to an obligation or duty; 2 : one who violates his allegiance and betrays his country

Spook:

Last comment… I would have to see some REAL evidence that NINE presidents and all the Congressmen and all the administrative staff and the media and all the military top brass would have to be actively involved in this conspiracy to coverup this unfortunate incident. WHEN in the history of the US government has it ever happened that ALL branches and ALL staff and ALL political parties have conspired to keep something like this a secret. No tell-all books? No gushing interviews on TV? No political points to be scored in Congress to get votes? All over nine administrations just to protect Israel which attacked the ship for what reasons again?

Rear Admiral Clarence A. Hill, Jr. and Rear Admiral Merlin H. Staring letter to the Secretary of the Navy Gordon England, July 27, 2005:

". . . Our first reason for addressing you with respect to that letter is in the nature of a fervent thank you. In the Department’s letter to the Congressman is the statement, for the record, that “[the] Court of Inquiry [ordered by Admiral John S. McCain, Jr., Commander-in-Chief, U.S. Naval Forces, Europe] was the only United States Government investigation into the attack.” We are most grateful to the Department of the Navy for this official confirmation of a fact that the USS LIBERTY survivors, and others in their support, have maintained over all of these 38 years since the attack. During those years there have been many published assertions and claims that the attack had already been “investigated” a dozen or more times, by various Congressional or other U.S. Government officials or authorities. We deeply appreciate having that matter laid authoritatively to rest. . . .

The official Navy record of the proceedings of that 1967 Court of Inquiry thus reveals that the Court, pursuant to the one-week time limit imposed upon it, actually met during portions of five calendar days – two days of its allotted time having been consumed in its travel between London and the Mediterranean. It is small wonder that the Court fell far short of fulfilling its directed mission of inquiring into “all the pertinent facts and circumstances leading to and connected with” that attack.

The failure of the Court to inquire into, and to record, “all the pertinent facts and circumstances” is both apparent and clear from multiple circumstances of record. We will flag here, preliminarily and briefly, some of the most significant and blatant of those tell-tale indicators:

(1) The arbitrary imposition of a 7-day time limit within which the Court was required to complete its inquiry into a massively complex event;

(2) The fact that, in its three days in Malta, it had access to and took testimony from only 14 of the 260 surviving members of LIBERTY’S complement – many of her 172 wounded crewmen, obviously including many who had been at the heart of the action, having already been medevaced to other U.S. Navy vessels and shoreside facilities for medical attention. (Never thereafter were these critically important eyewitnesses officially questioned concerning their observations of or experiences during the attack.)

(3) Some of the few crewmen whose testimony was in fact recorded included in their sworn testimony factual observations concerning the attack which were eliminated by the Court from its written record or were otherwise subsequently redacted from the Court’s record as it is now officially held and acknowledged by the Government;

(4) Some of the LIBERTY crewmen who did have an opportunity to testify before the Court attempted to respond in full, or to include in or add to their accounts factual observations which would have been clearly relevant to the “pertinent facts and circumstances . . . connected with the armed attack” that the Court had been charged with eliciting – but were stopped and expressly forbidden by the Court to testify further in those areas . . .

We most respectfully ask, Mr. Secretary, that you carefully consider our foregoing presentation – that you examine and appraise, objectively, the official records of your Department to which we have referred, and the validity and accuracy of those records that we have challenged – and that you now, before it is too utterly late, both consent to and support the efforts of the LIBERTY survivors and their supporters to generate a full, fair, and objective United States Government investigation into the facts and records of the 8 June 1967 attack by Israel upon the USS LIBERTY (AGTR-5)."

"I find it very strange that some Americans can argue endlessly that the attack on the USS Liberty was a tragic accident and not the deliberate attack on a known American ship that survivors know it to have been. . . So we are convinced that they (the Israelis) are lying about virtually the entire prelude to, conduct of, and aftermath of the attack. Together, these things have convinced every man on that ship including her commanding officer that the attack was deliberate.

Yet despite these things a few Americans seem to accept the preposterous claim that the attack was a mistake and that firing stopped with the torpedo explosion. One can accept and understand this attitude from an Israeli, as he would have a natural tendency to believe his country’s version of events and to disbelieve contrary versions – especially since he has no personal experience to draw upon. But how can an American disbelieve the virtually identical eyewitness reports of scores of surviving fellow Americans and accept instead the undocumented claims of the foreign power that tried to kill them? That is very difficult to understand or to accept.

The typical Israeli reaction is that we are liars or antiSemites, which of course we are not. We are American sailors honestly reporting an act of treachery at sea. At the very least we deserve your courtesy and understanding.

Lieutenant Jim Ennes, Jr., U.S.S. Liberty

Spook:

You can continue to quote as many survivors of the Liberty as you like. As I have said, they experienced a great tragedy. What you cannot seem to understand though is that I am interested in evidence that nine presidents would allow a nation like Israel to engage in such a deliberate act and for what purpose? and then that they would cover it up with the complicity of Congress and the military brass and the media. How do you explain this? To me, this is just another of the many sad conspiracy theories that you seem to feel the need to immerse yourself in whenever a certain group or nation is involved. Sorry, I don’t see it.

So let us begin with some simple questions. If you choose to answer with yet another post quoting a survivor of the Liberty then this discussion is over for me. Either you answer or I see no reason to respond.

  1. Why would Israel attack the Liberty?
  2. Why would the military cover this up?
  3. Why would nine presidents also cover this up?
  4. Why would the Congress essentially be complicit with this?

Now, what do you have to say about my final question:

  1. Judge Cristol finally got these documents declassified. What do you have to say about the evidence that emerged regarding the lack of communications which he seemed to believe were most responsible for the tragedy? Do you think that he is involved in the cover up as well? Why or why not? What about the new evidence in the declassified documents? Is it or is it not relevant?

Like I said, one more quote as an evasion and you lose me in this discussion. Don’t worry, I am sure no one from the Mossad is interested in what you have to say. They are NOT watching you. Be brave and try to post something yourself rather than regurgitating a bunch of statements from survivors of the Liberty. Deal?

Department of the Navy, Office of the Judge Advocate General, March 16, 2005

"The Honorable Rob Simmons
House of Representatives
Washington, DC 20515

Dear Mr. Simmons:

  [b]This responds to your March 8, 2005, letter requesting the Navy's position on the findings of the "Independent Commission of Inquiry into the Israel Attack on the USS LIBERTY, [/b]the Recall of Military rescue Support Aircraft While the Ship Was Under Attack, and the Subsequent Cover-Up by the United States Government" . . . as introduced . . . in the House of Representatives on October 7, 2004.  This letter provides background informtion about the attack on the USS Liberty (AGTR-5) and the Navy's investigation. . . .

  [b]The Court of Inquiry was the only United States Government investigation into the attack.[/b] The Navy plans no further investigations into the incident."

. . . .

Sincerely,
JANE G. DALTON
Captain, JAGC, U.S. Navy
Assistant Judge Advocate General
(Civil Law)

Captain William L. McGonagle’s official Medal of Honor citation for bravery during the attack on the U.S.S. Liberty. No mention is made as to who attacked the Liberty. McGonagle’s Medal of Honor was awarded in a private ceremony closed to the press, the first and only time in U.S. history that’s been done:

Rank and organization: Captain (then Comdr.) U.S. Navy,U.S.S. Liberty(AGTR_5).
place and date: International waters, Eastern Mediterranean, 8_9 June 1967.
Entered service at: Thermal, Calif.
Born: 19 November 1925, Wichita, Kans.

Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his
life above and beyond the call of duty. Sailing in international waters,
the Liberty was attacked without warning by jet fighter aircraft and motor
torpedo boats which inflicted many casualties among the crew and caused
extreme damage to the ship. Although severely wounded during the first
air attack, Capt. McGonagle remained at his battle station on the badly
damaged bridge and, with full knowledge of the seriousness of his wounds,
subordinated his own welfare to the safety and survival of his command.
Steadfastly refusing any treatment which would take him away from his post,
he calmly continued to exercise firm command of his ship. Despite
continuous exposure to fire, he maneuvered his ship, directed its defense,
supervised the control of flooding and fire, and saw to the care of the
casualties. Capt. McGonagle’s extraordinary valor under these conditions
inspired the surviving members of the Liberty’s crew, many of them
seriously wounded, to heroic efforts to overcome the battle damage and
keep the ship afloat. Subsequent to the attack, although in great pain
and weak from the loss of blood, Captain McGonagle remained at his battle
station and continued to command his ship for more than 17 hours. It was
only after rendezvous with a U.S. destroyer that he relinquished personal
control of the Liberty and permitted himself to be removed from the bridge.
Even then, he refused much needed medical attention until convinced that
the seriously wounded among his crew had been treated. Capt. McGonagle’s
superb professionalism, courageous fighting spirit, and valiant leadership
saved his ship and many lives. His actions sustain and enhance the finest
traditions of the U.S. Naval Service. (Captain McGonagle earned the Medal
of Honor for actions that took place in international waters in the Eastern
Mediterranean rather than in Vietnam.)

Thanks for the definition of a traitor… I think that I can find some more definitions as well. Let’s see… Oh yes, here they are…

[quote]par·a·noid ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-noid)
adj.
Relating to, characteristic of, or affected with paranoia.
Exhibiting or characterized by extreme and irrational fear or distrust of others: a paranoid suspicion that the phone might be bugged. [/quote]

[quote]ob·sess ( P ) Pronunciation Key (b-ss, b-)
v. ob·sessed, ob·sess·ing, ob·sess·es
v. tr.
To preoccupy the mind of excessively.

v. intr.
To have the mind excessively preoccupied with a single emotion or topic: “She’s dead. And you’re still obsessing” (Scott Turow). [/quote]

[quote]conspiracy theory
n.
A theory seeking to explain a disputed case or matter as a plot by a secret group or alliance rather than an individual or isolated act.[/quote]

[quote]ma·ni·a ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mn-, mny)
n.
An excessively intense enthusiasm, interest, or desire; a craze: a mania for neatness. [/quote]

[quote]ob·ses·sive-com·pul·sive (b-ssv-km-plsv, b-)
adj.
Relating to or characterized by a tendency to dwell on unwanted thoughts or ideas or perform certain repetitious rituals, especially as a defense against anxiety from unconscious conflicts: obsessive-compulsive behavior. [/quote]

What fun. Can we continue this wonderful game of definitions…

“The Court of Inquiry was the only United States Government investigation into the attack.”
– Department of the Navy

[quote]conspiracy theory
n.
A theory seeking to explain a disputed case or matter as a plot by a secret group or alliance rather than an individual or isolated act.[/quote]

back to you buckwheat…

:flog: :wanker: :wall: :fedora:

Hey look! An entire phrase rendered in smilies: “One-trick conspiracy nutbar makes total fool of himself yet again.”

[quote=“fred smith”][quote]conspiracy theory
n.
A theory seeking to explain a disputed case or matter as a plot by a secret group or alliance rather than an individual or isolated act.[/quote]

back to you buckwheat…[/quote]

I believe the testimony of the crew of the U.S.S. Liberty, nothing more, nothing less. You believe the government of Israel. It’s as simple as that.

“Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy, to be useful, must be impartial, else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people to surrender their interests.”
George Washington

[quote=“spook”][quote=“fred smith”][quote]conspiracy theory
n.
A theory seeking to explain a disputed case or matter as a plot by a secret group or alliance rather than an individual or isolated act.[/quote]

back to you buckwheat…[/quote]

I believe the testimony of the crew of the U.S.S. Liberty, nothing more, nothing less. You believe the government of Israel. It’s as simple as that.[/quote]
Don’t be so utterly ridiculous. The ONLY thing the crew know for sure is that they were attacked. You’re trying to say they knew WHY they were attacked. Some deckies in the late 60s know more about Israeli and US policy than Israel and the US? Gimme a BREAK! :laughing:

The U.S.S. Liberty was an intelligence ship, its crew trained to gather and analyze information:

"We had been surveilled all morning and part of the afternoon by Israeli forces. They knew who we were. We heard them reporting over radio who we were and how we were sailing and where we were sailing. They saw the flag and everything else. We were in international waters.

At 2:00 the action started when we had just completed a general quarters drill. I had just come out or the engine room to get some fresh air when the firing started. That’s when I took my shrapnel hit, nothing fantastic but pieces of shrapnel. I went back to the boiler room and prepared to start lighting off number one boiler to get steam to get out of there.

This persisted for probably 25 or 35 minutes with the aircraft rocketing us and hitting us with everything they had–napalm and cannon fire–and after that there was a comparatively small lull. We heard that they were getting hit all over the place and we could see the torpedo boats moving in and firing torpedoes at us, and then one hit and put a 40 foot hole in the side of the ship and knocked all power off.

By that time the ship’s interior was blackened, you couldn’t see anything except with battle lanterns. We were still in the process of lighting off the boiler and trying to head the ship out to see. The ship was listing and we got the word to prepare to abandon ship. We were ordered by Lieutenant Golden who was in charge in the engine room to exit, and the last one out of there was myself, and I had to cut off the boilers’ fuel supply. I was the last one.

We got outside at the main battle dressing station where a lot of injuries were. We were just about to go topside when we heard a lot of shots and canon fire and machine gun fire. Evidently they were trying to pick off people who were fighting fires and trying to put life rafts in the water. They were picking these people off with machine guns. We were told, I didn’t see them, but we were told that they were shooting up the life rafts that were in the water, so needless to say they weren’t going to take survivors at all.

And so we headed back to our spaces and did not abandon ship. We stayed with it. And it continued probably for another 40 minutes with them shooting and finally after seeing that the ship was not going to sink they grabbed one of the life rafts and they exited the scene. And through that, the helicopters had come over loaded with Israeli troops. This lasted almost two hours and finally we got the ship turned around and boilers lit off and headed out to sea.

We also heard that nine minutes into the attack we had reached a message to the Sixth Fleet and they were on their way with aircraft to help us. Little did we know until afterwards that three sets of aircraft were turned back."
– John Hrankowski, crewmember, U.S.S. Liberty

Yawn. I’m with Fred on this. Bye. I can read (and have) other people’s accounts elsewhere. You’re offering nothing to the discussion and have consistently failed to answer any of the questions Fred posed to you.