"The USS Liberty Veterans Association has established, prima facie, the commission of war crimes by the state of Israel against US military personnel and civilians. These Americans volunteered to serve their country. They followed all orders given to them. In the course of following those orders, they were suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the state of Israel and their country did absolutely nothing to protect them or seek justice on their behalf…
The failure of the United States government to undertake a complete investigation of the Israeli attack on USS Liberty has resulted in grievous harm to the surviving victims, as well as to the families of all crewmembers. Equally serious, this failure has resulted in an indelible stain upon the honor of the United States of America. It has sent a signal to America’s serving men and women that their welfare is always subordinate to the interests of a foreign state. The only conceivable reason for this failure is the political decision to put the interests of Israel ahead of those of American servicemen, employees, and veterans.[66]
Finally, the fact that the Israeli government and its surrogates in the United States have worked so long and hard to prevent an inquiry itself speaks volumes as to what such an inquiry would find.
The USS Liberty Veterans Association, Inc. respectfully insists that the Secretary of the Army convene an investigatory body to undertake the complete investigation that should have been carried out thirty-eight years ago.
Respectfully submitted on behalf of the USS Liberty Veterans Association, Inc., on this, the thirty-eighth anniversary of the Israeli attack on their ship.
Did I say that I did not believe the testimony of the crew of the USS Liberty? I do and that is ONE PART of the whole investigation. Ever studied a friendly fire incident before? and the subsequent investigations? You would be amazed at the almost totally contradictory statements that come out of such investigations and that is why they are so tragic. Everyone sees such a totally different thing when viewed from a totally different angle.
No. I believe that nine US presidents were not coopted by Israel because you disagree with the findings that were accepted by them and by nine different congresses along with nine different top military leaderships.
Yes, actually it is for me. Until you can prove to me that the government of Israel has coopted all of our top leadership then yes, I am going to refuse to believe you and your “findings.”
I find it interesting though that you show such interest in a case that occurred nearly 40 years ago. Given similar numbers of deaths, I would wonder why you are not equally incensed by the attack on the Cole. By the way, the government of Yemen appears to have let most of the instigators of that particular attack loose in an amazing tunnel escape. Did you read about it? Yemen is an ally of the US as well and this is all very recent. I was wondering then why exactly you show such a dogged interest in the Liberty over the Cole. As usual, my only conclusion can be that you are interested not because of the attack or the number of deaths but because of the particular nation that is involved and I think that is because it feeds your own need to well you know. We have discussed this all before.
[quote=“sandman”][quote=“TainanCowboy”] :wanker: :fedora:[/quote]Hey look! An entire phrase rendered in smilies: “One-trick conspiracy nutbar makes total fool of himself yet again.”[/quote]Good job.
Now can you read the message in my Avatar area to the left of the page?
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Also, ever read the account of the road blocks thrown up regarding the investigation of the Khobar Towers bombing and the great sensitivity displayed to the Saudis? No comments there? Why not? Also, it took a letter from Bush Sr to get the investigation going again which revealed the extent of official Iranian government involvement. Clinton was happy to leave the matter alone? Why? Did the Saudis coopt Clinton? What should we do about those dead troops, which number in the hundreds? Again, your concern is selective and biased and is conducted not out of concern for dead US troops but to feed your phobia.
The Izzies have the Yanks by the genitals…I often wonder why a large, rich, and powerful nation would let this happen…It seems to be something new in the history of international geopolitics to have a smaller and weaker nation dictate to the larger and stronger one! The Yanks act as proxy for the Izzies.
[quote]“If the Israeli government wanted a law tomorrow annulling the 10 Commandments, 95 U.S. Senators (at least) would sign the bill forthwith.”
–Uri Avnery, former Knesset member[/quote]
It’s an interesting question. Why would any American citizen or government official support a foreign government be it Saudi Arabia, Yemen – or Israel – and turn their backs on the armed forces of their own country?
I haven’t a clue so it’s pointless to demand that I explain why.
Fred Smith or Taiwan Cowboy would know the answer to that question though and if they’re willing to come out from behind their red herring or ad hominem smokescreens or the smokescreen that it’s possible to believe mutually contradictory propositions at the same time then it would be interesting to learn the answer.
[quote=“spook”]It’s an interesting question. Why would any American citizen or government official support a foreign government be it Saudi Arabia, Yemen – or Israel – and turn their backs on the armed forces of their own country?
I haven’t a clue so it’s pointless to demand that I explain why.
Fred Smith or Taiwan Cowboy would know the answer to that question though and if they’re willing to come out from behind their red herring or ad hominem smokescreens or the smokescreen that it’s possible to believe mutually contradictory propositions at the same time then it would be interesting to learn the answer.[/quote]spook -
We’ve discussed this before…you have some problems.
Get help. If you need some help finding it, as a fellow veteran I will try to help you find it.
But knock off the crazy shit.
Spook appears to be one of the most intelligent members in the IP forum from what I have read in the past few weeks. Your offer TC is really way off the mark (imho ~as a fellow veteran).
I’ll take this opportunity to post a few links of interest:
Here is a short video documentary by Bill Moyers (PBS) called Secret Government. It covers the creation of the NSA and the CIA. -worth a look even if you know the history already. It think Bill Moyers is respected by most people. Each is about 11 mins long.
This is also interesting, from the 92 prez election, it shows how the politicians are coached on TV appearances. In a couple of scenes with larry king, you can see him trying to pitch pharma drugs to Bush Sr. (owned by his brothers company, larry knowing bush sr. is involved with eli-lilley). Pat Robertson makes some interesting remarks off(on) camera as well. brasscheck.com/videos/spin.html
Have they? In the case of Khobar, there were concerns about how to best deal with the Saudis and a very sensitive situation for them domestically. This is NORMAL in international relations. Ask parents whose kids have been kidnapped and spirited back to Saudi Arabia by usually the father. Should all foreign policy goals and objectives thus be subjected to the needs of these individuals? And if you are “concerned” about Khobar and the Cole, why is it that we are hearing ONLY about the Liberty? Hmmm?
That is not what you are being asked to explain and you know it. You are being asked to prove that Israel has effectively coopted the highest leadership in our nation, not just the president (and NINE of them!!!) but the Congress, the Pentagon, the media. The whole shibang. Can you prove that? No. And that is the crux of the matter. You ask us to continue to believe these ridiculous assertions. If you have proof, then go ahead and show it, but all I see is repeated posts quoting members of the USS Liberty, who went through a very highly charged emotional experience (tragedy) and who are not in full possession of all the facts. This matter was investigated and it was determined that there were many failures of communication along the way. All the conspiracy theories were given a good shovel of dirt when the judge in question finally demanded and got his request that the information be declassified. Now, if that information has been revealed in its entirety, why is this still such an issue for you? AND what pray tell would be the reason for Israel to DELIBERATELY and INTENTIONALLY attack the Liberty? You have never answered that. Please do.
Sorry, I will have to get back to you on this after my Jewish overlords and Mossad connections advise me what to say… The intellectual depth of your continued laserlike examination of this case has caused them a great deal of concern. They are currently stymied as to the best way to respond to your Intellectual Gianthood, your Investigatory Prowess, your Ability to See Things Even Those That Are Not There. Anyway, the mental disturbances hotline is still busy so … please be patient and I will try to answer your concerns as best as I can.
I have never questioned Spook’s intelligence. I do question his “concerns” and I do worry about his excessive interest, his obsession with Israel. It is not normal.
I disagree.
All right.
I will read it and get back to you. I would like to point out however that in my view, the Saudi connections with our former US government officials seems to be the relationship that would be of greatest concern. So, do you think that we invaded Iraq just because various “Jewish” officials in the administration wanted to protect Israel?
We have gone over this before. The biggest source of weapons to China is Russia. I believe Israel may be No. 2 or No. 3 but its percentage of the TOTAL sales to China is something in the order of 1 percent. Did you know that? This information has been posted before. Spook’s interest kind of died down after the enormity of Israel’s sales to China were revealed but again, surprise, surprise, another concern of Spook’s regarding Israel.
[quote]A few reasons of “Why” re: USS Liberty (read about 1/3 of the way down)
Here is a short video documentary by Bill Moyers (PBS) called Secret Government. It covers the creation of the NSA and the CIA. -worth a look even if you know the history already. It think Bill Moyers is respected by most people. Each is about 11 mins long.
Actually, I apologize but I am not going to go through this. What is the gist of the argument that you think that they are trying to make and how is it relevant to this discussion?
Yes, I realize that presidents are coached regarding speeches, TV performances, etc. Is that a problem? What is the Bush family’s connection with Eli Lilley and how is it a problem? Think that this is slipping underneath the radar somehow? We all noticed, for example, how little was made of any possible Bush connection to Ken Lay and Ernon, Worldcom, Jack Abramovitch, et al, right? yes, we see the media looking away time and time again. Why do they do that? (This is being very sarcastic for those who cannot read between the lines).
“I have never believed that the attack on the USS Liberty was a case of mistaken identity. That is ridiculous. Israel knew perfectly well that the ship was American.”
– U.S. Navy Admiral Thomas Moorer (ret), former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
For anyone interested in learning more about the facts of the case:
Great another quote. So, why did Israel attack the Liberty then? Why did the president and Congress allow this to be “covered up” over NINE different administrations? Why is this particular “incident” such a concern of yours and not the French and Russian arms sales and backstabbing over Iraq? The Yemeni collusion with the Cole terrorists? The Iranian complicity in the Khobar Towers bombing? The Saudi interference into that investigation? I continue to ask to show state of mind. Yours is clearly clouded by your obession with all things Israeli and might I add Jewish.
I have no clue why any US citizen would be so ardently pro any foreign government that it becomes detrimental to his own country and its armed forces. You’re in a much better position to answer that question than I.
It does happen though, which is why we have laws against espionage.
Asking why I’m so concerned about Israel and not France, Russia or Yemen is a legitimate question. The answer is because the relationship between the U.S. government and Israel has grown so incestuous that it’s hard for many American supporters of Israel to tell any longer where the legitimate national interests of Israel end and those of the U.S. begin. In fact, for many such Americans, those national interests have somehow become nearly identical, which is why we’re on the verge of attacking Iran militarily.
And as George Washington would say (another person I’m sure you’re tired of hearing me quote):
“The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is, in extending our commercial relations to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop.”
Are you now accusing NINE presidents and NINE congresses of being traitors?
So whose foreign government do I belong to? who am I selling out the US for?
So why is the system not suing nine presidents and congresses for espionage?
Glad you see that.
So give me a list of the areas where American interests are being subverted to those of Israel and by whom. Should be a really long list to warrant such concern from you.
so you are of the view that Iran is no threat and that its nuclear program is only a problem for Israel and not the US. Then, have the governments of the UK, UN, Germany and France suddenly been coopted by the evil Israelis as well? Why then their concern? Answer that.
Only because you use it out of context in ways that are simply not relevant to the discussion and you do so with such preponderous pomposity that it makes me want to wretch…
So why single out Israel? What about Taiwan? What about South Korea? What about Saudi Arabia? What about NATO? What about the whole list of countries that we have “political relations” with? Hmmm? Would love to hear all about it. Would be a great change from your posts of quotes from others which are totally meaningless for the most part when not placed in the proper context. Why can’t you just speak for yourself. I would prefer that. The more you do, the clearer your true positions become. Why should communicating clearly be something that you are so afraid of? Hmmm?
I believe the OT is about Israeli misdeeds, that’s why the focus.
Note, I am aware of the % of Russian arms sales to China, but my point is not quantity, it is quality/sophistication of what the Israelis sell - especially since much of it is based on top secret US design or co-design or US taxpayer paid for design. Besides the obvious examples, the lavi, the phalcon, the pythons, etc, other things like c/c systems, submarine cruise missile launchers, etc. are most concerning. I agree with you about the Saudi/USG connection, that is also a dilemma that needs to be solved.
The PBS links and the SPIN link I just posted for general interest. Don’t take everything as a challenge. Sometimes people post messages to share knowledge/info.
That would be a fair point BUT I think that the subject of Israel tends to draw a certain level and kind of “concern” from certain posters and I do not believe that is either objective, factually based or healthy.
To my understanding, all Israeli sales of defensive or sophisticated communications equipment involving US Department of Defense require US government approval before they go ahead. Despite Israel wanting to make a sale of a certain kind of communications equipment to China, the US government was able to get it blocked. From the Israeli side, the objection was considered pointless and one that was made only for political posturing. Eventually, the sale went through with the sole difference being that the “chip” in question was replaced with one from France. The technology that was being blocked is currently available on the market from a number of different vendors and was not considered “sensitive.”
Not taking it as a challenge. Just not interested in reading through or watching lengthy videos so I kindly requested that you summarize the key points. Hope that is understandable.
Again, the irony is that I am not particularly interested in Israel. Yet, given the “interest” of certain other posters and the way the interest is presented, I have found myself moving toward a position of defending Israel. I hardly imagine that the original poster’s intent was to foster greater support for that nation. haha
With ‘disinterested observers’ like you, who needs friends?
How about a fair deal? For every ten times you indulge your obsession with our alliances with France or Germany, I get to indulge my obsession with our alliance with Israel?
Fair deal? Or, speaking as a confirmed ‘disinterested observer’, would you prefer that I just shut up entirely and take my George Washington and Admiral Moorer quotes with me?
No deal. My obsession, er, interest is based on FACT not PHOBIA. Anyway, my “obsession” with France and Germany has already ended now that both nations are behaving in a civilized fashion again.
At the very minimum STOP quoting George Washington. I humbly beg of you… I just cannot bear it any more!
Can’t say as I’m surprised by your answer. Well, if you won’t at least even let me quote the founding father of the United States anymore I’ll just have to start quoting myself:
“Denial is the ‘insincerest’ form of confession.”
– spook
:wanker: 
:fedora:[/quote]Hey look! An entire phrase rendered in smilies: “One-trick conspiracy nutbar makes total fool of himself yet again.”[/quote]Good job.
