A quote from today’s TT, an article about aboriginal names vs. Chinese names …
I’m stunned about some peoples behavior … ignorance …
[quote]However, in the last count at the end of last year, only 6,000 of the nation’s 460,000 Aborigines had reverted back to their tribal names, Mayaw said.
“Most fear derision and discrimination from mainstream society,” he explained.
The situation of an elementary school teacher illustrates the discrimination that is still prevalent in society.
After the teacher changed back to his tribal name, the school’s principal began receiving requests from parents to transfer their children out of the teacher’s class, “because the parents were worried abut the teaching quality of an Aboriginal teacher,” Mayaw said.
Discrimination and racism are deeply rooted in humanity, which is why we need government to enforce civil rights legislation to curb our darker and more ignorant impulses. People are people, all over in every country the world. No people are more or less racist than other people. However, how the system deals with racism, that’s different. Some countries have better systems at dealing with it. Taiwan’s laissez-faire approach towards government regulation might work for some areas of this society, but when we’re talking about discrimination, the traffic, and useless cops, I’d like a lot more law and order. As an English teacher, you get to see discrimination based on race, gender (half the jobs advertised request a “female teacher”), nationality (“North American accent”), and even good looks (I once worked for a school that only hired attractive staff and would turn non-pretty Taiwanese girls away at the door without an interview) all the time in this sleazy little business. Such blatant discrimination would get a business sued for big bucks in North America and many other civilized countries, and I’d like to see the courts enforce such standards in Taiwan as well. Unfortunately, “Equal Opportunity” doesn’t appear to be in either the Mandarin or Hokkien vocabulary.
I disagree. Racism is not something one is born with, it is something one is taught. Which makes it entirely possible, more over probable, and very much the truth that one culture can be more racist than another.
I don’t see how you can say “One people are no more racist than another” when it is very clear that racism is a cultural issue and not a genetic one.
Many negative tendencies are ingrained in the human psyche. Fear of the “other”, those that look and act different than us. Tribalism is an inherent human tendency. Yes, racism is taught, and teaching kids to not be racist would be a big help to eradicating racism. Yet even after two generations of schools all over North America indoctrinating children in anti-racist attitudes, there are still many racists all over the U.S. and Canada. Some of them learned it from their parents, but some of them taught themselves to hate without much help from others, out of insecurity or identity issues. You’ll never get rid of racism completely because homo sapiens are tribal apes. It’s not an either/or proposition. It’s both cultural and genetic.
Anyway, that’s off-topic my main point. My point was that social pressure isn’t going to get rid of discrimination fast enough. If we had waited on social pressure and reforming the culture in the U.S., we’d still have colored drinking fountains. Changing people’s hearts takes generations. That’s why sometimes government pressure, in the form of anti-discrimination laws, is necessary to force forward social progress. You’re from the South, you should know the history - it had to take the U.S. National Guard using military force to desegregrate schools in the South. If the national government and other civil rights organizations hadn’t taken extreme measures, Jim Crow would still be alive and well today. A lot of people are just too laid-back about this, assuming that somehow Taiwan will naturally evolve into a tolerant society like back home, without any pressure - no, Taiwan will stay the same, racist and discriminatory, unless similar extreme measures are taken. We tend to forget how hard and difficult the struggle for equal rights has been in our own societies. Like MLK said, “For evil to flourish, it is only necessary for good men to do nothing.” As a practical suggestion, I would advocate pressuring the ROC government into passing anti-discrimination legislation, for starters.
I agree with you, too. The thing is, Quentin said it is, “deeply rooted in humanity” and you are saying you’re not born with it. Both are true. Because it’s deeply rooted (be it through culture, minimal contact with other groups or just plain old ignorant prejudice) in a cycle where parents transfer the same ideas on their children (on race and a myriad of other issues) generation after generation as it has been for centuries.
One culture may be more prejudiced (I don’t like to bandy around the term racism) than another because of a myriad of reasons. Let’s use the US and Taiwan as our litmus.
A - Now one would have to be a real idiot or American jingoist to believe that prejudice and racism isn’t still a problem in America (regardless of how big or small the problem). However, the US set up a very cool document in 1776 from which the regulation of social relations in the States can be made as free and equal as humanly possible (although, not being a lawyer, it may have it’s flaws).
The second big factor is that the US has been recieving immigrants from every corner of the world - slaves and people seeking a better life - for the past 250 to 350 years. Compared to most countries US citizens have been exposed to every culture and creed (as a nation, not necessarily every individual) and are better suited to accept someone from a different background, culture or skin colour.
B - Taiwan doesn’t have the legal benefit. There has been no social need to draw up such a wide ranging civil liberties document. And Chinese people have had it ingrained socially and culturally for millenia that they are the “middle kingdom” and somehow superior to others in one way or another. Taiwanese come from a culture that has been culturally isolated for the biggest part of it’s history and has never been forced to “open up” culturally.
Although these two examples are very general (I really don’t have the energy to go into it more than that), this is the basic reason why some cultures may be more or less open to others and more or less prejudiced. In Taiwan I don’t see it as blatant racism, but rather a case or blind ignorance and “what my mommy told me.”
There are isolated black tribes in Central Africa that won’t consider you human. They would base this on the fact that (having never seen a white person before) you are white and (to their eyes) look like something that has crawled out of tree bark. They’re not racist, just ignorant of something outside of their experience. Sure, this is an extreme, but not everyone has a TV or live in a multi-cultural society.
Sorry mate, but which government? Yours? Maybe. Taiwanese government? Why? Sure, we can argue that it’s a human rights issue blah blah blah… But, who are we (the collective Western “we”) to enforce our morality on every nation in the world. I have a deep seated problem with this.
A - We have no right to say our morality is somehow superior.
B - We have no right to say our culture is somehow superior.
C - We have no right to say our political systems are somehow superior.
You may say you don’t mean that, but that’s what it comes down to. Moral, cultural and political colonialism. And here’s another example. Iraq. I’m willing to bet that a Western (US?) based political system will not work there. It will be a dismal failure. Only something born out of their own experience meeting their own unique needs will work, no matter how “wrong” or “wierd” it may be in our eyes.
The same goes here.
Sure it’s different. Cultural experience is different. People are different. However, you (or I) have no right to say what’s better or not. Better for who? Sure, in Taiwan the Aboriginals get the short end of the stick, but there are movements (both Aboriginal and mainstream) fighting for changes. And changes will come. However, my argument is, how they solve it to suit them should not be subjected to our sense of what is right or wrong.
Yes you would. And so would I. But again, this is based on our cultural perspective and experience. If Taiwanese society at large really were unhappy with Law enforcement, I’m sure they would do something about it. Then again, maybe not. Their cultural perspective on government and governing is very different from our. Different, not necessarily inferior.
Believe me, being a South African male I’m affected (negatively) by this way more than you. I can tell you some stories over a beer sometime. Nevermind the age thing. In our culture, every year you’re more experienced and more sought after, here, every year you’re older and less sought after. Once again, cultural perspective and experience.
Just because Taiwanese business ethics doesn’t meet North American standards doesn’t mean they’re not civilised. Remeber, they were writing on paper when our ancestors still relied on oral tradition.
And after Enron and a myriad other cases, I think the time for finger pointing at other folks’ business ethics has passed.
Also, this is again based solely on our western perspective. Why should a business be forced to hire someone based on what you or I consider fair practice? Which is more free? A country where businesses are forced to hire based solely on ability, or a country where businesses are allowed to hire based on whatever criteria they damn well please? The answer to that would be a matter of perspective.
But I would say they are free to hire 22 year old inexperienced white female teachers with no concept of how to control 20 Taiwanese children, the culture or the difficulties in teaching them English, and attractive but ineffective secretaries. Surely they have the right to run their business into the ground.
Why? To conform to what you are used to at home? To model Taiwan on your standard? To be fair and equal? To create an Earthly paradise free from discrimination for all mankind?
That’s very noble of you, certainly. However, I seem to remember when tens of thousands were butchered in Rwanda and Burundi the west didn’t lift a finger to help. This is just one case in Africa of which there are many examples. But, apart from the disastrous half assed attempt of soldiering that was Somalia, where are the “Heroes of Freedom, Liberty and Equality” in Africa? If any continent is unable to deal with these issues you speak of and sorely need intervention (if only to save lives) then it is Africa. Nay, they cry for it, ask for help. But none is forthcoming. Rather, a nation such as Taiwan (and I know of no genocide currently in progress here) who isn’t asking for any misplaced “help” and is totally capable of dealing with their own social problems, is subject to a great deal of misdirected rhetoric.
[quote=“Quentin”]Unfortunately, “Equal Opportunity” doesn’t appear to be in either the Mandarin or Hokkien vocabulary.[/quote] In terms of how we percieve it, perhaps. Within the teaching and bushiban racket, certainly. As far as the wider economic spectrum is concerned, I’m not so sure. In fact, as far as business here is concerned, anyone is very free to just go on and do there own thing. Having very little regulation by the government actually makes it a lot more free than our respective systems (granted, with additional opportunites for less than savoury practices). I know of very few places where you can just start up a school or bar in your downstairs garage.
[quote=“belgian pie”]A quote from today’s TT, an article about aboriginal names vs. Chinese names …
I’m stunned about some peoples behavior … ignorance …
[quote]However, in the last count at the end of last year, only 6,000 of the nation’s 460,000 Aborigines had reverted back to their tribal names, Mayaw said.
“Most fear derision and discrimination from mainstream society,” he explained.
[/quote][/quote]
Though there has been Chinese settlement in Taiwan for many centuries, there was a major wave of immigration of refugees around 350 years ago, at the fall of the Ming Dynasty. These refugees, who poured in over a period of 30 or 40 years, were almost entirely Fujianese men. They came here and married aboriginal women of the plains tribes. Later immigrants from Fujian married the descendants of these people. What this means is that most Taiwanese-speaking “benshengren” probably have aboriginal blood in them. That means that those who discriminate against aborigines may be unwittingly discriminating against themselves.
To understand Taiwan properly one has to see where it came from.
Just a few short decades ago Taiwan was quite poor. IT was a 3rd world country. A banana republic. Its citizens lived in a rather austere and authoritarian society. They were not even allowed to travel abroad easily till the 80s. Taiwan was (and largely still is) a mono-ethnic society. The Chinese on Taiwan (otherwise known as Taiwanese) had long subjugated and inter-bred with the Taiwan Aborigini. To the extent that the latter is not easily distinguishable from the former. There were very few members of any other race on Taiwan. There were a few white people, a handful of people from southeast asian nations. Virtually no black people.
The Taiwanese people were for so long insulated from the outside world, forbidden to travel outside of Taiwan. Taiwanese kept themselves busy staying alive and making ends meet ON TAIWAN. Oblivious to much of what is happening in the rest of the known universe as it were.
Now Taiwan is a modern asian nation with a bulging populace with bulging pockets. Ready to travel around the world. Ready to be welcomed into the first world (it still is in many ways more like the second world). But its populace has so much to learn as a whole about the world and its people. About racial equality and humanity. About the concept of fairness and impartiality for all races and ages and foreign or local. About the concept of male/female equality. About the concept of non-age descrimination. The list goes ON and ON really.
Taiwan has come a long way in many many ways. However its populace faces some real challenges as it comes to grips with having peoples of other races living on Taiwan on a pretty much permanent basis. Its had to come to grips with its identity in the world. TAiwan is very much a nation being re-invented , being morphed into the new Taiwan of the 21st century.
[quote=“Chris”][quote=“belgian pie”]A quote from today’s TT, an article about aboriginal names vs. Chinese names …
I’m stunned about some peoples behavior … ignorance …
[quote]However, in the last count at the end of last year, only 6,000 of the nation’s 460,000 Aborigines had reverted back to their tribal names, Mayaw said.
“Most fear derision and discrimination from mainstream society,” he explained.
[/quote][/quote]
Though there has been Chinese settlement in Taiwan for many centuries, there was a major wave of immigration of refugees around 350 years ago, at the fall of the Ming Dynasty. These refugees, who poured in over a period of 30 or 40 years, were almost entirely Fujianese men. They came here and married aboriginal women of the plains tribes. Later immigrants from Fujian married the descendants of these people. What this means is that most Taiwanese-speaking “benshengren” probably have aboriginal blood in them. That means that those who discriminate against aborigines may be unwittingly discriminating against themselves.[/quote]
yes indeed. And the reason that TAiwan has so many pretty women is the fact that there has been so much inter-breeding. Chinese with taiwan aborigini mixed in with the occasional whitey thru the years has produced a high ratio of cuties in Taiwan
[quote=“Chris”][quote=“belgian pie”]A quote from today’s TT, an article about aboriginal names vs. Chinese names …
I’m stunned about some peoples behavior … ignorance …
[quote]However, in the last count at the end of last year, only 6,000 of the nation’s 460,000 Aborigines had reverted back to their tribal names, Mayaw said.
“Most fear derision and discrimination from mainstream society,” he explained.
[/quote][/quote]
Though there has been Chinese settlement in Taiwan for many centuries, there was a major wave of immigration of refugees around 350 years ago, at the fall of the Ming Dynasty. These refugees, who poured in over a period of 30 or 40 years, were almost entirely Fujianese men. They came here and married aboriginal women of the plains tribes. Later immigrants from Fujian married the descendants of these people. What this means is that most Taiwanese-speaking “benshengren” probably have aboriginal blood in them. That means that those who discriminate against aborigines may be unwittingly discriminating against themselves.[/quote]
Yes, that’s very true. I actually find it very odd that after four to five hundred years of Chinese immigration to Taiwan people still discriminate (to a greater or lesser degree) against Aboriginals and sometimes display pure apathy to their plight.
Often, if you hear something “good” said about indigenous people it will be along the lines of, “the men are very strong.” Or something of that nature.
These things are often based on basic ignorance. However, some changes are afoot. I remember a story in the paper two years ago of a affluent Taiwanese girl who gave up her spot at the National Military Academy to make place for an Aboriginal girl from a disadvantaged background. I can’t remembr all the detials, but I remember her quoted as saying something along the lines of, “My parents can afford to send me to University. I don’t need this opportunity as much as my friend.”
Then there is also the Tao (previously known outside Lanyu as Yani) author and academic, Syaman Rapongan (previously named Shih Nu Lai) who lectures all over the island and who has published several books on Tao culture. He has done much to raise cultural awareness of traditional Aboriginal life and fighting for greater equality. You can read more about him in the February 2007 edition of the Taiwan Review.
I think most Americans are pretty apathetic to the plight of the Native Americans as well. I’m not sure they are AS disrespected. But I think they are pretty disrespected.
[quote=“tommy525”]To understand Taiwan properly one has to see where it came from.
Just a few short decades ago Taiwan was quite poor. IT was a 3rd world country. A banana republic. Its citizens lived in a rather austere and authoritarian society. They were not even allowed to travel abroad easily till the 80s. Taiwan was (and largely still is) a mono-ethnic society. The Chinese on Taiwan (otherwise known as Taiwanese) had long subjugated and inter-bred with the Taiwan Aborigini. To the extent that the latter is not easily distinguishable from the former. There were very few members of any other race on Taiwan. There were a few white people, a handful of people from southeast asian nations. Virtually no black people.
The Taiwanese people were for so long insulated from the outside world, forbidden to travel outside of Taiwan. Taiwanese kept themselves busy staying alive and making ends meet ON TAIWAN. Oblivious to much of what is happening in the rest of the known universe as it were.
Now Taiwan is a modern asian nation with a bulging populace with bulging pockets. Ready to travel around the world. Ready to be welcomed into the first world (it still is in many ways more like the second world). But its populace has so much to learn as a whole about the world and its people. About racial equality and humanity. About the concept of fairness and impartiality for all races and ages and foreign or local. About the concept of male/female equality. About the concept of non-age descrimination. The list goes ON and ON really.
Taiwan has come a long way in many many ways. However its populace faces some real challenges as it comes to grips with having peoples of other races living on Taiwan on a pretty much permanent basis. Its had to come to grips with its identity in the world. TAiwan is very much a nation being re-invented , being morphed into the new Taiwan of the 21st century.
its people has much to learn as yet.[/quote]
Good post. I wish more people would realise there isn’t a blue print for social reform, the factors that drive this in individual nations differ widely, and the manner in which reform takes places (especially considering the varing factors that drive these factors in individual nations) as well as the time frames are not set.
I find it a bit harsh advocating equality and freedom on the one hand, yet being intolerant of culture on the other hand.
I apologise, I’m posting like a spammer on this thread.
That also doesn’t neccessarily make racism ingrained in American society. (btw, I’m not saying that’s what you said SAF, just a thought in my head). All societies have these issues to some degree or another. The thing is, if something doesn’t affect you direfctly, or if you never encounter it first hand (or are maybe not even aware of it specifically) then one doesn’t usually give these things much thought.
actually the native americans are all getting rich having gaming allowed in their reservations.
i watched a tv show recently showing some members of a brazilian tribe visiting the USA. These were members of tribe from deep within the amazon jungle ostensibly invited to visit some American INdians in the USA. Particularly in the florida area.
i had quite a laugh when they told french tv reporters who were interviewing them that
they hadnt seen any indians so far (because the american indians they met all were pretty much white after so much inter-breeding with whites) and also that they were displeased with the food because they had been “eating like iguanas” (due to their hosts preference for salads everyday over meat).
i am surprised actually that after so many hundreds of years of inter-breeding that there are ANY aboriginis left on Taiwan at all !!! I think mainstream Taiwanese will one day come to treasure the unique heritage of the Taiwan aborigini . And their significance to Taiwan. And wake up to the fact that a great deal of Taiwanese today have aborigini blood !! Today unless an aborigini is speaking in their native tongues, i can NOT tell one apart from the mainstream taiwanese. Can you?
chinese are the most racist group i’ve seen. that’s why i’ve said before:
we need to seriously take a look at the new nationalism that’s taking root in China. it is believed china will one day be Sino-Facist.
check out this article:
Yeah, like Tommy pointed out, most Native Americans are more or less white from all the interbreeding. If you ever go to a Cherokee pow-wow, you’d be surprised at how many palefaces there are. The friends I had back home that had Native American heritage, they were indistinguishable from your average white person.
Bismarck - I didn’t mean that we as outsiders should enforce our morality on the Taiwanese. Any change is going to have to come from within Taiwanese society, done by Taiwanese themselves. However, I disagree with the cultural relativism - basic human rights are universal. Every time someone brings up the “different cultural values” argument, I wonder - whose cultural values, specifically, in that society? In every society there are a group on the top who hold the power, who have a vested interest in holding on to that power and privilege, and are resistant to change. I bet you’d get very different answers if you posed these questions to a Taiwanese of Chinese descent (the guys on top) and an aborigine (the guys on the bottom). Guess which one would say that Westerners shouldn’t bring their morality to foreign cultures (always a convenient and disengenous dodge to avoid answering hard questions when making legitimate criticisms of their country) and which one would nod in agreement with my “colonialist” ideas of equal treatment for people regardless of race?
A lot of evil and harm gets done in the name of tradition and culture. “Yankees interfering with our unique Southern traditions and way of life” were very common arguments back in my grandfather’s generation. Some cultural traditions are just not worth preserving and have to be discarded. All countries and cultures have had to modify their societies to accomodate modernization. Taiwan is no different from every other country in the world. So I don’t buy the “their culture is different from ours, so we have no right to criticize it” as a legitimate argument. It smacks too much of Lee Kuan Yew’s “Asian values” argument in defense of Singapore’s fascism, because Asians are culturally unsuited for democracy (according to Lee, not me).
Sorry if I’m running this argument into the ground, but I just came across an article that puts my argument for individual rights as trumping cultural rights better than I did above. This is about a Muslim woman in the Netherlands who is under death threats for daring to criticize the Koran, but this passage is relevant to Taiwan and all cultures everywhere:
[quote]Today we combine two concepts of liberty: one has its origins in the 18th century, founded on emancipation from tradition and authority. The other, originating in anti-imperialist anthropology, is based on the equal dignity of cultures which could not be evaluated merely on the basis of our criteria. Relativism demands that we see our values simply as the beliefs of the particular tribe we call the West. Multiculturalism is the result of this process. Born in Canada in 1971, it’s principle aim is to assure the peaceful cohabitation of populations of different ethnic or racial origins on the same territory. In multiculturalism, every human group has a singularity and legitimacy that form the basis of its right to exist, conditioning its interaction with others. The criteria of just and unjust, criminal and barbarian, disappear before the absolute criterion of respect for difference. There is no longer any eternal truth: the belief in this stems from naïve ethnocentrism.
Anyone with a mind to contend timidly that liberty is indivisible, that the life of a human being has the same value everywhere, that amputating a thief’s hand or stoning an adulteress is intolerable everywhere, is duly arraigned in the name of the necessary equality of cultures. As a result, we can turn a blind eye to how others live and suffer once they’ve been parked in the ghetto of their particularity. Enthusing about their inviolable differentness alleviates us from having to worry about their condition. However it is one thing to recognise the convictions and rites of fellow citizens of different origins, and another to give one’s blessing to hostile insular communities that throw up ramparts between themselves and the rest of society. How can we bless this difference if it excludes humanity instead of welcoming it? This is the paradox of multiculturalism: it accords the same treatment to all communities, but not to the people who form them, denying them the freedom to liberate themselves from their own traditions. Instead: recognition of the group, oppression of the individual. The past is valued over the wills of those who wish to leave custom and the family behind and - for example - love in the manner they see fit.
Worse yet: under the guise of respecting specificity, individuals are imprisoned in an ethnic or racial definition, and plunged back into the restrictive mould from which they were supposedly in the process of being freed. Thus they are refused what has always been our privilege: passing from one world to another, from tradition to modernity, from blind obedience to rational decision making.
Unabashed praise for the beauty of all the cultures may hide the same twisted paternalism as that of the colonialists of yesteryear. The Enlightenment belongs to the entire human race, not just to a few privileged individuals in Europe or North America who have taken it upon themselves to kick it to bits like spoiled brats, to prevent others from having a go.
I couldn’t agree with that last sentence more. It’s condescending to act as if Chinese are so different culturally that they as individuals aren’t ready yet for the same rights that we in the West take for granted.
Anecdotally, this topic came up when I was teaching a college class in Taiwan several years ago. I was shocked to learn that when applying for a job, it was a common practice to attach a photo to your resume - so that the boss could see how attractive you were and consider your looks in the hiring process. As an FOB from North America, I found that outrageous and unfair. Most of the class, consisting mostly of non-traditional students of a range of ages (it was a Business English class), agreed that it was unfair. One of them told me that one employer told him straight out, to his face, “Why should I hire an ugly man when I can hire a handsome man?” I really felt for the blow to that poor guy’s ego! So I bet if you really talk to many Taiwanese about discriminatory hiring practices, when it hits home and applies to them, they’re just as angry about it and against it as most of us foreigners are. Another case is the school I mentioned earlier that only hired pretty teachers and secretaries. The manager of that school disagreed with the owner about that practice and eventually quit and switched to manage another school because of that. She found that kind of discrimination incredibly unfair and stupid.
So I don’t really think it’s a case of importing Western values at all. Fair is fair and people all over the world can see that. That’s a universal human value embraced in every society as far as I can tell.
Now, getting many Taiwanese to see how discriminating against a person due to their race is just as stupid and unfair as discriminating against a person because they are ugly or the wrong gender, that’s going to take some time and education.
The funniest (saddest) thing about the OP’s article is that in the very same issue the TT’s editorial starts off with a congratulatory pat on the back for the Taiwanese for not being racists, unlike those horrible Australians and mainland Chinese.
Uh, Taipei Times, you may not be aware that one of the main reasons aborigines are mostly pan-blue is that they were quite happy to see the KMT put the boots to the Hoklo, and are still wary of resurgent (ethnic) Taiwanese chauvinism.
[quote=“Quentin”]
…Now, getting many Taiwanese to see how discriminating against a person due to their race is just as stupid and unfair as discriminating against a person because they are ugly or the wrong gender, that’s going to take some time and education.[/quote]
I agree. Not with the “getting many Taiwanese to see how…” part, mind.
