Discussion About Racism

Life Dating & Relationships
21

[quote=“Mucha Man”][quote=“dashgalaxy86”]…you may think the idea of paying a brideprice, is bizarre, but, well, that’s just the way it is. Suck it up.
[/quote]

My wife’s father thought, as many Taiwanese do, that a brideprice was a barbaric practice and would never have asked for such a thing. Most families that do ask for it now give it right back to the couple. So you are wrong that we need to suck up the ugly traditions.

A marriage is between two people. If your wife-to-be is not willing to make it a mix of cultures and understand your expectations and values then she has no business marry a foreigner.

Your advice to newbies is very poor, imo.[/quote]

It’s about respecting your host country. Of course, I have my conditions as well. My fiance is splitting the wedding costs with me evenly, there is NO brideprice in our case, and we have to go home twice a year and keep a room available for my friends and family. As I said in (many) later posts, the brideprice is not often enforced when foreigners are involved and it makes no sense for foreigners who intend to stay in Taiwan to pay. I even went so far as to say they should pay us, not the other way around, since we are in effect joining their families, not taking their daughters from them as is the norm when marrying other locals. Unfortunately for you, I guess some of those posts were separated into the other thread. So, I suppose, just stay on topic in the future. :ponder: That’s the problem with splitting threads like this. Oh well.

22

Why?

23

There’s conforming and then there’s being a doormat. “Brideprice?” Isn’t widely done anymore. Wasn’t even brought up in my case. If it had, I would have sarcastically asked for a “money-back guarantee” or something along those lines.

As for the money thing, I have no qualms with helping family members, provided that help is actually necessary. And as far as responsibility is concerned, you do know that, according to tradition, caring for parents is the sons’ duty, right?

[quote=“dashgalaxy86”]
I knew that I was in when, after dinner, I overheard the mom telling my girlfriend’s aunt and sister “I’m just so thankful he’s not a black man.”[/quote]

Racist, pure and simple. I don’t buy into your attempts to downplay it as a mere cosmetic preference among Chinese for lighter skin. It isn’t.

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Actually, it’s not “the way it is”. Bride-prices are not the norm in Taiwan.

25

[/quote]

There’s conforming and then there’s being a doormat. “Brideprice?” Isn’t widely done anymore. Wasn’t even brought up in my case. If it had, I would have sarcastically asked for a “money-back guarantee” or something along those lines.

[quote=“dashgalaxy86”]
I knew that I was in when, after dinner, I overheard the mom telling my girlfriend’s aunt and sister “I’m just so thankful he’s not a black man.”[/quote]

Racist, pure and simple. I don’t buy into your attempts to downplay it as a mere cosmetic preference among Chinese for lighter skin. It isn’t.[/quote]

Sheesh. I’m getting tired of this. If you could read, you’d know that brideprice wasn’t brought up in MY case either. I just mentioned it for the sake of the original OP. Sounds like he had some very traditional and rigid possible in-laws to deal with and any information could’ve helped.
And no one ever said it wasn’t racist. Just saying that it’s not as bad as it seems. And if you don’t “buy” my attempts to tell the truth, then that’s your problem. The truth is what it is, and what it is is the truth. At this point if you want to make the conscious choice to disagree with the only guy who was there, then be my guest, though I’d advise against it. I’m the primary source here. What I say is the facts. As for “downplaying” it, why don’t you just ask your Taiwanese female friends why they wouldn’t want half-black babies. It has little to do with inherent racial inferiority and everything to do with local beauty standards. This is common sense to anyone who’s been here more than a year.

Actually, it’s not “the way it is”. Bride-prices are not the norm in Taiwan.[/quote]
Please read what I said above, starting with “Sheesh.”

26

[quote=“dashgalaxy86”]Imagine yourself in that situation. They make this comment. What would you do? Stand up, and indignantly and righteously lecture them?[/quote]Yes. I’ve done this on numerous occasions. Thankfully, it’s never been necessary toward anyone in my family or my wife’s family.

“Qui tacet consentit” :no-no:

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[quote=“Northcoast Surfer”][quote=“dashgalaxy86”]Imagine yourself in that situation. They make this comment. What would you do? Stand up, and indignantly and righteously lecture them?[/quote]Yes. I’ve done this on numerous occasions. Thankfully, it’s never been necessary toward anyone in my family or my wife’s family.

“Qui tacet consentit” :no-no:[/quote]
Different strokes for different folks.

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[quote=“dashgalaxy86”]
Sheesh. I’m getting tired of this. If you could read, you’d know that brideprice wasn’t brought up in MY case either. I just mentioned it for the sake of the original OP. Sounds like he had some very traditional and rigid possible in-laws to deal with and any information could’ve helped.[/quote]

Oh, trust me, I can read. And what I said stands. You’re advising things that aren’t even standard for locals, all in the name of “respect for your host country,” “respecting traditions” and other such sycophant-ish nonsense.

Oh, it IS as bad as it seems. That’s the whole point.

I don’t like your attempts to sugar coat racist realities. It isn’t the bad racism, just the-- you know-- lighter and less evil racism. It’s kind of like racism-lite.

Bullshit. The rationalizations for racist views among locals span a range of things, everything from perceived inferior intellectual capacity to fear of violent behaviour (as portrayed in Hollywood, the main exposure to western culture for many).

29

I don’t think that the OP was being racist or else, it’s more of a big misunderstanding. I would be the first one to blame someone for being racist, as I had such kind of problems here in Japan. About the old lady being “racist”, who isn’t around her age? We all know very well that many people around her age and over, have those kind of opinion. In my family, we have two clans, one is very open minded and the other one a bit more nationalist. Living in Asia as a white guy really opened my mind, and I do understand now a 100% what it feels to be a foreigner, which is not the case of the OP’s in law. I don’t like her way of thinking of course, but you can’t do anything about it. She is already trying to open her mind by letting him in the family, which is a good start, one day she will understand that black people are not bad, but that will take some time.
Please don’t misunderstand me, I do not like what she said, but you can’t change those kind of things that quickly. Like I said, I had similar problems here in Japan, even worst than that. I was once refused from 3 hospital in a row in Japan, because of my skin colour! This is far worst, because they didn’t care about letting me dying!

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[quote=“Toasty”][quote=“dashgalaxy86”]
Sheesh. I’m getting tired of this. If you could read, you’d know that brideprice wasn’t brought up in MY case either. I just mentioned it for the sake of the original OP. Sounds like he had some very traditional and rigid possible in-laws to deal with and any information could’ve helped.[/quote]

Oh, trust me, I can read. And what I said stands. You’re advising things that aren’t even standard for locals, all in the name of “respect for your host country,” “respecting traditions” and other such sycophant-ish nonsense.

Oh, it IS as bad as it seems. That’s the whole point.

I don’t like your attempts to sugar coat racist realities. It isn’t the bad racism, just the-- you know-- lighter and less evil racism. It’s kind of like racism-lite.

Bullshit. The rationalizations for racist views among locals span a range of things, everything from perceived inferior intellectual capacity to fear of violent behaviour (as portrayed in Hollywood, the main exposure to western culture for many).[/quote]

Bah. Server apparently crashed for a second there, lost my reply. Here’s a summary:
I don’t think it’s that hostile. My Taiwanese girlfriend and her mother, right behind me, severely disagree with you. I just asked if they though blacks were dumb or violent, and they said “No. Just the color we don’t like.” Word for word, although my girlfriend went on a rant about how I’ve been spending too much time on this forum today.
Anyway, that is what it is. Not a perfectly unracist response at all, but it’s not as bad as you just suggested. Go ahead and query a few of your Taiwanese friends, see what they offer up. Anyway, sounds like we’re at an agree to disagree point. I just don’t think it’s that big a deal, and by saying it is, I have to question why you’re here if you hate the attitude of the locals so much.

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[quote=“djstout”]I don’t think that the OP was being racist or else, it’s more of a big misunderstanding. I would be the first one to blame someone for being racist, as I had such kind of problems here in Japan. About the old lady being “racist”, who isn’t around her age? We all know very well that many people around her age and over, have those kind of opinion. In my family, we have two clans, one is very open minded and the other one a bit more nationalist. Living in Asia as a white guy really opened my mind, and I do understand now a 100% what it feels to be a foreigner, which is not the case of the OP’s in law. I don’t like her way of thinking of course, but you can’t do anything about it. She is already trying to open her mind by letting him in the family, which is a good start, one day she will understand that black people are not bad, but that will take some time.
Please don’t misunderstand me, I do not like what she said, but you can’t change those kind of things that quickly. Like I said, I had similar problems here in Japan, even worst than that. I was once refused from 3 hospital in a row in Japan, because of my skin colour! This is far worst, because they didn’t care about letting me dying![/quote]
You’re my hero. This is exactly what I’ve been hoping someone sensible would come and say. Thanks, that’s exactly my point. We don’t have to like it, but we do have to accept it, at least on a case by case basis. And I think we all have, so why feign indignance? Just to show off how not racist you are?

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[quote=“dashgalaxy86”][quote=“Toasty”][quote=“dashgalaxy86”]
Sheesh. I’m getting tired of this. If you could read, you’d know that brideprice wasn’t brought up in MY case either. I just mentioned it for the sake of the original OP. Sounds like he had some very traditional and rigid possible in-laws to deal with and any information could’ve helped.[/quote]

Oh, trust me, I can read. And what I said stands. You’re advising things that aren’t even standard for locals, all in the name of “respect for your host country,” “respecting traditions” and other such sycophant-ish nonsense.

Oh, it IS as bad as it seems. That’s the whole point.

I don’t like your attempts to sugar coat racist realities. It isn’t the bad racism, just the-- you know-- lighter and less evil racism. It’s kind of like racism-lite.

Bullshit. The rationalizations for racist views among locals span a range of things, everything from perceived inferior intellectual capacity to fear of violent behaviour (as portrayed in Hollywood, the main exposure to western culture for many).[/quote]

Bah. Server apparently crashed for a second there, lost my reply. Here’s a summary:
I don’t think it’s that hostile. My Taiwanese girlfriend and her mother, right behind me, severely disagree with you. I just asked if they though blacks were dumb or violent, and they said “No. Just the color we don’t like.” Word for word, although my girlfriend went on a rant about how I’ve been spending too much time on this forum today.
Anyway, that is what it is. Not a perfectly unracist response at all, but it’s not as bad as you just suggested. Go ahead and query a few of your Taiwanese friends, see what they offer up. Anyway, sounds like we’re at an agree to disagree point. I just don’t think it’s that big a deal, and by saying it is, I have to question why you’re here if you hate the attitude of the locals so much.[/quote]

Shit, I had the same discussion with my gf right now, and she told me the same thing, Taiwanese just don’t like dark skin colour, not black people, but because they want their kids to have pale skin, more beautiful to their point of view.

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[quote=“dashgalaxy86”]

Bah. Server apparently crashed for a second there, lost my reply. Here’s a summary:
I don’t think it’s that hostile.[/quote]

I think it is. Check that. I know it is.

And what did you expect them to say?

And, again, what did you expect them to say? And as for the color thing, did you ever stop to think a little deeper about those negative associations with darker skin tones and what they mean?

No, every bit as bad as suggested. Worse, because it’s being defended and rationalized.

In 9 years here, I’ve queried quite a few of my friends on a large number of subjects, including this one. Nice red herring, by the way. I don’t “hate the attitude of locals,” just racism.

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I think I’m going to side with the OP. this is such a no-brainer because I had literally the exact same experience. Well, not literally but basically. Anyway, not like anyone needs my opinion but this seems to be getting out of control. So if what toasty says is true about his queries, then everyone is right. When I ask my friends… they insist there are no bad feelings toward African or black people or whatever. I just asked about 5. including a 40 year-old. they all say the same thing, 差不多. It doesn’t have much, if anything, to do with racism. Just color. Which in my opinion is wrong anyway… but that’s not the issue at hand, is it? Also, I don’t really know what the original post was about, seems this thread kind of started out of the blue. But the story isn’t really funny. Just awkward. But I can sympathize with the OP, I think.

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To be fair, XinBiDe probably is only defending me because he’s my buddy. hahaha

36

[quote=“dashgalaxy86”]

Bah. Server apparently crashed for a second there, lost my reply. Here’s a summary:
I don’t think it’s that hostile. My Taiwanese girlfriend and her mother, right behind me, severely disagree with you. I just asked if they though blacks were dumb or violent, and they said “No. Just the color we don’t like.” Word for word, although my girlfriend went on a rant about how I’ve been spending too much time on this forum today. [/quote]

Prejudice at the very least. Even now it seems you not have gotten over to them the fact that a person is a person on the inside. The color they are is unchosen by them and to prejudice against others based on color is wrong my friend no matter how it has come to be there. At the very least it is sad to think that Taiwanese people look on the shade of skin of a child and prejudice themselves towards or away from them. You say the old lady has accepted a lesbian daughter and now a white future son in law. She sounds about ready to learn that color is only skin deep. You should just tell her this instead of getting angry with strangers who are telling you it is time to retool.

You are marrying in to this family, you have love for the daughter and the mother, but you must also be able to see that if you don’t point this thing out then you are just letting her continue with her harmful thoughts. Where is the thin end of the wedge? What you have likely done is bonded with the old woman by protecting her prejudice. Perhaps what you could now do is to start to make her aware that people are people. Color is color. The two things are very different. Otherwise one day your little six year old Taiwanese child will be sat in class laughing at pictures of black children and calling them names. Or when your children face name calling for being half white what will you do then? Will you get mad then or will you tell yourself to stop being so ethnocentric? Be the solution, not an apologist for the problem.

Consider also that your girlfriend wouldn’t have loved you if you had been born to black parents. Uh ho, spaghetti-o. Not such a nice thought.

People here have taken offense at what the old lady said and your ability to explain it away. You should think about that. Either they are all wrong or you have some thinking to do. It is hard to stand up and tell the old lady she is wrong. I get that. You are able to do it here so you should be able to do it there. But you must make her and the daughter see that their thoughts are wrong. I know the world is huge and racists come in their millions. But you do the right thing this one time and make a difference. A small change can bring about a big effect. :sunglasses:

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[quote=“wollemi”][quote=“dashgalaxy86”]

Bah. Server apparently crashed for a second there, lost my reply. Here’s a summary:
I don’t think it’s that hostile. My Taiwanese girlfriend and her mother, right behind me, severely disagree with you. I just asked if they though blacks were dumb or violent, and they said “No. Just the color we don’t like.” Word for word, although my girlfriend went on a rant about how I’ve been spending too much time on this forum today. [/quote]

Prejudice at the very least. Even now it seems you not have gotten over to them the fact that a person is a person on the inside. The color they are is unchosen by them and to prejudice against others based on color is wrong my friend no matter how it has come to be there. At the very least it is sad to think that Taiwanese people look on the shade of skin of a child and prejudice themselves towards or away from them. You say the old lady has accepted a lesbian daughter and now a white future son in law. She sounds about ready to learn that color is only skin deep. You should just tell her this instead of getting angry with strangers who are telling you it is time to retool.

You are marrying in to this family, you have love for the daughter and the mother, but you must also be able to see that if you don’t point this thing out then you are just letting her continue with her harmful thoughts. Where is the thin end of the wedge? What you have likely done is bonded with the old woman by protecting her prejudice. Perhaps what you could now do is to start to make her aware that people are people. Color is color. The two things are very different. Otherwise one day your little six year old Taiwanese child will be sat in class laughing at pictures of black children and calling them names. Or when your children face name calling for being half white what will you do then? Will you get mad then or will you tell yourself to stop being so ethnocentric? Be the solution, not an apologist for the problem.

Consider also that your girlfriend wouldn’t have loved you if you had been born to black parents. Uh ho, spaghetti-o. Not such a nice thought.

People here have taken offense at what the old lady said and your ability to explain it away. You should think about that. Either they are all wrong or you have some thinking to do. It is hard to stand up and tell the old lady she is wrong. I get that. But you must make her and the daughter see that their thoughts are wrong. I know the world is huge and racists come in their millions. But you do the right thing this one time and make a difference. A small change can bring about a big effect.[/quote]

There are infinite good points to be made on either side, but there is only one side I agree with, and that is my side. To be fair, if my girlfriend were born to black parents, I wouldn’t have been interested in her in the first place. It’s not my thing. Uh oh spaghettio. That’s not racism, buddy, that’s just personal preference. I’m not that into black girls, physically speaking.

Anyway, you make it sound like I stood up for what the mom said. I have criticized the point of view, and first did so when my girlfriend first told me about it. I’ve been having a discussion with her and her mom about it all night as this has been going on. She insists she meant no racism, but of course we all know better. Yes, there is racism behind it, but there is no malice or bad intent. The racism is strictly related to skin color (in her case, at least, I can’t speak for others).

I also do worry about the kids being teased for being half-white but I have friends with half-white kids in Taiwanese schools and most of them are very popular… I even know of a half-black kid near where I lived in Neihu, and although I’m sure he gets his fair share of shit, I’ve seen him playing with his Taiwanese peers. I think it’s rough at first but as time goes on they get used to you. Even the moms stop gossiping after a few years. Besides, my future wife and I are independently wealthy and don’t have to work so we’ll be homeschooling the kids until they’re old enough for TAS.

38

You have not verbally stood up for the woman. I agree. I suggested that at the time, and over this furore, you may have used it as a bonding mechanism. If I am wrong I am wrong. It is just my theory.
I hope one day you are able to educate her out of her beliefs. It would be good if she could see that in the same way she discriminates against dark skinned children others will discriminate against mixed race. She will be more sensitive to what your own children might one day face and might go so far as to stand up for them if they ever face prejudice. That would be a great day and you would feel mighty proud I am guessing. :sunglasses:

39

[quote=“wollemi”]You have not verbally stood up for the woman. I agree. I suggested that at the time, and over this furore, you may have used it as a bonding mechanism. If I am wrong I am wrong. It is just my theory.
I hope one day you are able to educate her out of her beliefs. It would be good if she could see that in the same way she discriminates against dark skinned children others will discriminate against mixed race. She will be more sensitive to what your own children might one day face and might go so far as to stand up for them if they ever face prejudice. That would be a great day and you would feel mighty proud I am guessing. :sunglasses:[/quote]
I have no doubt that she’ll get over her racism as time goes on. But I’m not going to shove Western values down her throat in a shouting match, as several others have suggested.

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:astonished: My wife is a 52 year-old Taiwanese woman and she doesn’t think that way.