I know literally no Taiwanese, but I find the language arguments interesting. Can you explain (perhaps in words of one syllable) the conditions which mean Taiwanese can’t be represented - or perhaps is not likely to be represented - using existing characters the way the Cantonese do it? I’m sure there are reasons, but I can’t think of them. Something to do with the co-existence of Mandarin? Would it be more difficult than for Cantonese for some reason? Or would it be no more difficult, just that you think romanization is easier? Just interested
And does anyone have any idea what proportion of the population speaks Taiwanese ‘at home’ ie are comfortable and fluent in it?
As you imply it certainly could be done. The chief problem is the large number of words which traditionally have no character attached. Once they were established–harder than it sounds–learning them would be a considerable undertaking. There is limited time available for “mother-tongue education,” contrary to what you might infer from this thread.
I may be showing a high degree of ignorance here but since every kid here has to learn english, and therefor the alphabet, I wouldn’t have thought that the kids will find it all that odd to learn Taiwanese in the sam fashion. You never know, it might even help them with their english study too (ie seeing how you can put letters together to represent sounds etc). It’s not as if this is aimed at the adult population anyway.
The technical problems with finding ways to write Taiwanese are easily solved, and in fact have been solved in several ways. The basic conceptual problem is, there doesn’t exist much in the way of a Taiwanese-language literature. What’s the big advantage of learning to write a language in which there’s not a whole lot written?
Daltongang protests:
But it’s not crazy! In fact, it’s a bias which we inherit from the fact that most of our native languages are written languages, and see written stuff as their greatest representatives.
This doesn’t mean kids shouldn’t learn to write, only that there’s not much point in making them learn to write Taiwanese.
Daltongang continues:
We have to distinguish between language instruction for native speakers on one hand, and for non-native language learners on the other. The first group does not need to be taught how to speak the language, it’s their mother tongue or something close enough. The second group does need a way to write everything down, but as an intermediate rather than a final goal (which would still be spoken ability).
Remember, the controversy is about making native speakers of Taiwanese study a written form of their language, for which there is not yet much practical use. No one thinks that children who want to learn (or whose parents want them to learn) Taiwanese should not be encouraged to do so.
(Sigh) We seem to be in a loop here, but okay. Many languages are not written languages. Many others have had somebody develop a writing system, but there is still little use for writing in that language. Taiwanese is one of these languages.
No? Then tell me–what is there that is written in Taiwanese, and impressive enough to be worth coercing children into learning to read it? Other than the Bible, prayerbook, and hymnbook, that is (and these would apply only to one romanized form anyway). Is there even a newspaper?
[quote=“ac_dropout”]What about those Taiwanese where Minnan is not their mother tongue.[/quote] Those Taiwan citizens where Tai Yu is not their mother tongue should still have to be literate in Tai Yu because that is, at least should be, one of the official languages of the country of their citizenship and what the majority of the population speaks. Stop acting like the evil KMT/PFP/CCP allance that you are, where the minority forces their views upon the majority with guns.
Well, I think the loop is that if there’s no organized written language, then obviously nothing (or very little) will get written in it! If you build it, they will come - maybe
I think they should just stuff Mandarin, make their official languages Taiwanese and English and see what happens (This should be read in conjunction with the post where I said I had no idea about anything…)
It is up to the Taiwanese people to decide whether they want to preserve their native languages, Taiwanese (Holo) being the most prominent one, and the one under discussion. Indeed, by electing Chen and his platform of fashioning a native-soil Taiwanese identity, the Taiwanese have answered the call.
Prior to 1945, Mandarin was not spoken in Taiwan. It was adopted—or rather, foisted—as the national language without the consent of the governed. That consent, so vital in a demoratic country, is being re-established through an elected government which has made the determination to develop native languages.
Taioan husiann kaohuepo (Taiwan Prefectural City Church News) [switched to Mandarin writing in 1970]
[newly established in 1991]
(mixed Roman and Hanzi scripts)
You seem to be talking about fluency in the spoken language, not literacy.
Whenever Taiwan gets around to modifying its list of “official” languages, Hakka is likely to be on it as well. I think we should ignore “official” language lists in favor of the actual working languages.
Are you sure about that? In any case, it is widespread, which is a good reason to encourage folks here to learn the spoken language.
I think that was directed at a_c, but let me point out that what we have here is the DPP forcing certain educational choices on other people’s children, basically out of a tedentious sense of nationalism.
Turret says:
True. The issue here is, whose choice should it be? The children and their parents? Or the government?
This is not about preserving languages. It’s about expanding one particular one, which by the way is in no danger of extinction, into spheres occupied by others.
I don’t recall this being an election issue. But anyway, suppose the people voted to change your major to basket-weaving. Anything wrong with that?
As for your list of literature, that’s not very impressive, though it’s more than I had figured. Look at it this way: A library around here will contain zillions of Chinese books, and if it’s a university library or something, a bunch of English ones as well. Taiwanese can’t possibly occupy this ecological niche (not if your education was going to be worth anything). Since the kids are already going to have to learn Chinese and English, the addition of written Taiwanese doesn’t really open any doors for them, does it? It’s just a political gesture.
quote=“Screaming Jesus” We seem to be in a loop here, but okay. Many languages are not written languages. Many others have had somebody develop a writing system, but there is still little use for writing in that language. Taiwanese is one of these languages.
No? Then tell me–what is there that is written in Taiwanese, and impressive enough to be worth coercing children into learning to read it? Other than the Bible, prayerbook, and hymnbook, that is (and these would apply only to one romanized form anyway). Is there even a newspaper?[/quote]
There is nothing written in Taiwanese that anyone would want to read. I am going to shock you now—there are other uses of writing besides reading published material! Wow! The first time I heard this I couldn’t believe it either.
If writing is useful, and if it’s not you have my good wishes on your trip back to the stone age, then it is as useful for taiwanese as it is for any other language. To say “Taiwanese is one of those languages” displays a prejudice in my opinion and is illogical.
Your opinion about taiwanese writing is a profoundly negative one. Someone is trying to do something positive here with the most widely spoken unwritten language in the world–Minnan. Progress requires people to do new things, positive things. Naysaying does not help.
If you don’t get why writing is useful, I suggest you log off this website and cease all your written activities from now on. Until that time, I will say you are way way off base.
Not shocking at all. You’ve got signs in front of the fruit stand, love letters, etc. So, are non-readers of the government’s favored form of written Taiwanese at a significant disadvantage here? Or should we view Taiwanese writing class as being like military service–a personal sacrifice for the greater good of society?
Why no, not at all. Knowledge of how to read and write black English (“Ebonics”) is not nearly so useful as comparable knowledge of standard English. Hallelujah?
To me there is more fact than opinion in this. Whatever the DPP may accomplish in the future, Taiwanese today is almost always used in its spoken form. Where’s the illogic?
I got nothing against the language itself, just the presumption of forcing children to learn a particular written form of it.
Is government coercion needed to accomplish this supposedly positive, progressive thing? Then the language scheme isn’t ready for prime time.
How about if I just agree to never post anything using the government’s system of written Taiwanese?
How about if I just agree to never post anything using the government’s system of written Taiwanese?[/quote]
No that will not do. cease writing now, or admit that you are a bigot.
Let me answer the rest of your erroneous opinions:
a. Children will learn how to use written Taiwanese in their minimal studies and for other applications. hardly a tidal wave of oppresion of mandarin speakers, what a joke.
b. Did you just compare Ebonics to Taiwanese? also a joke.
c. if writing is useful for you in English, than it can be useful in taiwanese. to deny this is illogical.
d. a minimal amount of time in school for a major language of the island is hardly some form of radical oppresion of schoolchildren.
e. again, determining a proper educational curriculum for children does not fall under the category of coercion. you seem to have this lodged on your brain.
a, d, e. You’re right–it’s not a major form of oppression, only a minor one, and hardly the worst shortcoming of the educational system.
No joke, the example is remarkably parallel. In both cases we have a mostly unwritten language that is associated with a lower class of people. In both cases, we have seen politically controversial efforts to incorporate written forms of these languages into primary education, probably with the additional goal of raising the social status of these languages.
And yet, I deny it. Just as written Ebonics and written standard English are not equally useful, so with written Taiwanese vs. written Mandarin. How about written Klingon? According to your logic, is that language equally useful? Maybe we should make the kiddies learn it.
How come they only just decided it needed to be written down ? Nobody thought it was worth writing down before. Even the Welsh learnt how to read and write.
True. The issue here is, whose choice should it be? The children and their parents? Or the government?[/quote]
The choice ultimately belongs to the people of a nation. In a democracy the choice of the people and the choice of the government go hand-in-hand. Having to stipulate whether the people are parents or under-aged children who cannot yet vote is a pointless diversion. Children are fed, clothed, washed, and taught their manners by their parents—or by the state in loco parentis. Children do not choose the language standards of the nation any more than they can choose the next president. The choice belongs to the people and the state. I don’t think I need to state it any further than that.
[quote]
This is not about preserving languages. It’s about expanding one particular one, which by the way is in no danger of extinction, into spheres occupied by others.[/quote]
First of all, I disagree that native languages are in “no danger of extinction”. They are in grave danger.
The robustness and resilience of a language is measured by the ability of the population to pass on their native tongue to their children, not by the number of frail and aged speakers still extant. Any casual observer can verify for himself the dramatic decline in fluency among Taiwanese children.
The cause for this abrupt decline is well-known, and has been thoroughly discussed elsewhere. The issue that Taiwanese have to face up to is whether they want to preserve their native languages, or do not want to preserve their native languages.
Prior to the era of mass communication, widespread entertainment, and compulsory education it may have been possible to preserve languages without developing a writing system. That is no longer the case in Taiwan. The landscape has changed, and endangered languages now require a much surer footing. In order to be viewed as actual languages (which they certainly are) rather than as quaint and backward dialects, they must be accorded a degree of legitimacy not previously assigned, namely by establishing a recognized written standard. The alternative at this point is to let them fade away over a few generations.
To address the point you’ve made, yes, preservation of native languages now requires that they be expanded to spheres currently occupied by others. The world has gotten smaller, and the linguistic environment much depleted; in order to survive native languages now have to “encroach” into areas currently monopolized by a handful of other languages. If you want to argue that Mandarin and English have exclusive rights to that territory, we shall have to differ. I’ve indicated my reasons below.
[quote]
I don’t recall this being an election issue. But anyway, suppose the people voted to change your major to basket-weaving. Anything wrong with that?[/quote]
This is sophistry—and well beneath your level of intelligence and acumen.
To dignify it with an answer though: Yes, there is something with wrong with it. Even in a democracy, people cannot vote to rescind individual rights. People can no more vote to make me study basket-weaving, as vote to make Brittany Spears appear nude for a men’s magazine. The will of the people cannot overturn the rights of the individual.
We’ve been talking about establishing a written standard, though, which falls within the purview of the state (as exercised through the will of the people), not about individual liberties. Should a written standard get established, the government still cannot coerce anyone to use it. People are free to remain illiterate if they so choose.
If you are arguing the practicality of establishing written standards for native languages (perhaps in the face of a hostile percentage of the population who may adamantly refuse to adopt them) as opposed to the right of the people to do so, then we can segue_ to the next level of discussion. Otherwise, if it is the collective will of the Taiwanese people through their elected representatives to establish a written standard for native languages, I don’t see how you or I can deny them.
I’m certainly not going to argue with you that there is far more—by several orders of magnitude—written material available in Chinese and English than in Taiwanese. I don’t see the import though. If you are claiming that fluency in Taiwanese must come at the expense of Chinese and English, I have yet to hear a convincing reason.
Alternately, if you are claiming that maintaining fluency in Taiwanese in addition to Chinese and English results in greater cost to society, you may be right (in truth I think you’re right that there are substantial costs, but I also maintain that there are substantial benefits that outweigh the cost). Nonetheless, I also think that’s for the Taiwanese people to decide whether they wish to pay the price. Europeans in multi-lingual societies such as Switzerland are certainly willing to pay that price. Let the Taiwanese decide.
[quote]
Since the kids are already going to have to learn Chinese and English, the addition of written Taiwanese doesn’t really open any doors for them, does it?[/quote]
If you are talking about economic doors, then certainly Chinese and English (especially English) have much greater currency. There are other doors, though, besides the door leading to lucre. These doors include: a link to the past by preserving the Taiwanese heritage of their forebears; a sense of nationhood arising from a collective historical experience as transmitted through language; preserving a community of memory of people past and deeds large and small again through the medium of language. Language shapes the thoughts, the tone and texture of people’s lives in ways we cannot yet begin to express. If you deny this, try to find the poetry and eloquence of the Declaration of Independence or the Gettysburg Address after having translated it to German. You will find a high level of philosophy and abstraction, but absent the prose, humanity, and courage of the English language.
If you hold that Taiwanese has little practical value because it is not an international language in the same league as Chinese or English, then I think you’ve gravely underestimated its depth and meaning to the Taiwanese still here.
[quote]
It’s just a political gesture.[/quote]
I’ve tried to describe the value of language in defining Taiwanese as a people. The nascent Taiwanese identity depends in large part on preserving and promoting native languages, as they affect how people view themselves and their nation. If nurturing and fostering that burgeoning Taiwanese identity is considered a ‘political’ act or ‘political’ gesture in the pejorative sense of the word, then so be it.
Ultimately, Taiwanese have to decide who they are as a people, and the cost they are willing to pay to achieve it. So I say again: Let the Taiwanese decide.
To that well-argued post, I would add that one tool Taiwan could use to make Taiwanese more useful would be to give extra points on civil service exams for knowing its written and spoken forms. Of course points would also need to be given for Hakka and aboriginal languages. In fact, more points should be awarded for knowing these languages.
[quote=“Screaming Jesus”]a, d, e. You’re right–it’s not a major form of oppression, only a minor one, and hardly the worst shortcoming of the educational system.
[/quote]
Don’t misinterpret me–it’s not even a minor one. It’s a normal working of the educational system, and THE NORMAL WAY IN WHICH LANGUAGES ARE TAUGHT IN THOUSANDS OF SCHOOLS AND LEARNED BY MILLIONS OF CHILDREN AND ADULTS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD
If you have a problem with this issue, it is either one of bigotry, or a question of holding the proper education of children hostage to a political question, a bizarre and historically ridiculous fear of oppression.
[quote]
No joke, the example is remarkably parallel. In both cases we have a mostly unwritten language that is associated with a lower class of people. In both cases, we have seen politically controversial efforts to incorporate written forms of these languages into primary education, probably with the additional goal of raising the social status of these languages.[/quote]
It is a joke. If you say that, you are absolutely clueless about what taiwanese actually is or the history of taiwan. It is a language which predates mandarin and has nothing in common with ebonics whatsoever, except in your confused mind.
[quote]
And yet, I deny it. Just as written Ebonics and written standard English are not equally useful, so with written Taiwanese vs. written Mandarin. How about written Klingon? According to your logic, is that language equally useful? Maybe we should make the kiddies learn it.[/quote]
Look I’m not suggesting milking a bull here. Deny it if you want but Taiwanese is a major language. Children are learning it in school. They deserve a written form so they can learn it properly. If you find luddite taboos logical, well what else can I say.
(This should be read in conjunction with the post where I said I had no idea about anything…)