European Misperceptions of America (the Great!)

Politics International Politics
1

I think this might make interesting reading for our European “friends.” haha

[quote]Cowboy Capitalism: European Myths, American Reality
Olaf Gersemann
Book from Cato Institute
Release date: 25 September, 2004

In his fascinating recent book Cowboy Capitalism German journalist Olaf Gersemann looks at the myths which many Europeans hold dear about America and why the American capitalist system is such a bad thing compared to their European economic system. One might wonder how they can think these things given the obvious numerical indicators like their lower GDP growth (or none at all), enormously higher unemployment and much lower productivity, but apparently deriding America based on pure fantasy is part of their cultural mindset. A lot of these myths have been embraced by the left here in America as well. Gersemann does us all a great service by puncturing them once and for all with the lancet of fact.

Here are some examples of myths debunked from Cowboy Capitalism:

Myth: The U.S. unemployment rate is lower than that of the European Union largely because America imprisons a greater proportion of its citizens.
Fact: The growth in the number of prison inmates in the United States contributed only about .1 to .2 percentage points to the reduction of unemployment between 1985 and 1998. The actual difference in unemployment between most European countries and the US is, of course around 4 full points, nowhere near that .1 or .2 percent

Myth: America is a stratified society with a small handful of wealthy individuals and lots of low-income families, with no middle class in between.
Fact: Measured in 2002 dollars, the share of U.S. households that made $35,000 to $100,000 was 44.5 percent in 2002. That makes the middle class the single largest segment in the US population by a large margin.

Myth: In the U.S. the rich do not pay their fair share of taxes.
Fact: The top 10% of high-income US households pay 65% of all income tax while in Germany that top 10% pays under 50% of the income tax and other European countries follow similar patterns of having very small wealthy classes which pay very little real tax.

Myth: In the U.S. the poor are growing more numerous.
Fact: Between 1972 and 2002 the share of U.S. households with under $35,000 income per year, adjusted for inflation, declined from 44.9% to 40.6%. BTW, that poverty level is higher than the average income in most European nations.

Myth: European welfare provides better for the most needy compared to the U.S. system.
Fact: The poorest 30% on welfare rolls in the U.S. receive 40% of the total benefits paid. In comparison the poorest third receive only 20% in Italy and 30% in France and Germany. This means that the US system weights distribution of welfare more towards the most poor than do European systems. In addition, the official poverty level in the US is almost double that of most European nations when adjusted for relative consumer prices, yet our total number of poor is no higher and the quality of life for our poor is enormously better.

Myth: Living standards are higher in Europe than the U.S.
Fact: The U.S. has the highest living standard of any industrialized country. Adjusted for consumer price index, the 2003 per capita U.S. income was 36% higher than France, 42% higher than Germany and 44% higher than Italy.

Myth: Long term unemployment is a chronic U.S. problem and European job creation is better.
Fact: In the U.S. in 2003, 65% of the unemployed found new work within three months. In France it was 26%, Germany 17% and Italy 12%. The jobless rate in each of the three nations has been consistently higher than the highest U.S. unemployment rate (6%) since 1980.

Myth: American wealth is an illusion which hides massive personal debt.
Fact: While Americans do carry high credit card debt, the average American family is not imperiled by that debt, and in fact increased net worth by 50% between 1989 and 2002.

Myth: In America many people need two or three jobs to make ends meet.
Fact: In 2003, 5.3% of all employed Americans had more than one job, primarily by choice not by necessity. The choice to work harder and more hours is part of what raises American productivity so much higher than other nations, and gives us such a high per capita income. Only 1.5% of Americans had a second job through necessity. In Germany in 2003, 2.4% of employed people had multiple jobs by necessity.

Gersemann makes most of his direct comparisons with Germany, but the trends are similar in France, Italy and Spain as well as many of the smaller countries. The same trends do not hold true for the most capitalist nations in Europe - Switzerland and the United Kingdom.

So, the next time a Europhilic Leftist turns up his nose at the oppressive capitalist regime here in America and how our wealthy plutocrats ride over the plundered bodies of our mass of poor and oppressed people, point out to them that in every category of comparison Americans are better off than the equivalent class in Europe and that we have fewer poor, fewer unemployed, less disparity of wealth, an enormously higher standard of living - and then laugh when you tell them we pay about 30% lower taxes too.[/quote]

2

“There you go again Fred…”

“Fred, you just can’t help yourself…”

“Fred obviously you just don’t get it…”

“Its people like Fred Smith who post things designed to lead to only one conclusion…”

“If all of these statements were just the opposite, would you post that? I don’t think so !”

“Posts like this just go to show …”

I know I missed a few of the predicatable responses.
But they’ll show up. :sunglasses:

3

BUT, did you know that the 44.5% of the poorest American households think that the 21.3% of the poorest German households have a 68.7% lower chance of paying 13.4% or less on their credit card debts? Well, now you do.

Yes, those are the wonders of statistics.

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Posts like this just go to show…oh forget it.

5

I always thought it would be a legend that US Dollars have this magic smell. Being on Palau the last days I found it is really true. Delicious! I almost spent none but always sniffed on the new notes, forget Euro or Pound Sterling!

Scary, those locals in their US-pickups. Our travelguide said to me: “Do not sniff too much or you run stoned in front of one of their cars. The locals are friendly and want to stop for people, but they cannot”.

Our skipper had some problems steering his boat as well, so we had to board it in the middle of the sea … he couldn`t find the island.

Ups, getting off topic…

6

The Europeans believe all kinds of ridiculous things about America. Things like that there are lots of homeless people, that over 1/3 of the population has no health insurance, that big corporations and rich people get special tax breaks, that corporate lobbyists pretty much own the congress and White House, that America has voting machines that can easily be rigged and leave no paper trail, that black people get disenfranchised, that the FBI can demand your library records and that librarians can be jailed if they tell you this, and that the government is about to dismantle social security, that the USA doesn’t care about global warming, that there will soon be a national biometric ID card, and many other silly things.

I just don’t know where the Europeans get these ridiculous ideas. Everything in America is just peachy swell. Anyone who doesn’t agree should be put on the no-fly list and their Internet browsing records secretly screened.

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No offense, db, but I’m not sure if you are entirely on the money here. You listed about ten things there. Some of them are fairly complex issues, and some of them depend very much your your definitions and point of view. Neverthess, it appears from your list that at least a couple of your ten “ridiculous things” might actually be true. So --with all due respect-- I think you should be more careful about judging people.

Also, your suggestion that people who don’t agree with you should be put on a no-fly list :loco: … well, personally, I just think that’s wrong.

8

Europeans read newspapers.

Of course everything in America is peachy swell - but it is at the expence of other everyone else.

Talking of no - fly lists:

One of my friends who is an airline pilot operating out of the UK has been put on a “no fly list.” He is British. He just happens to have the same name as a detainee held under the terrorism act, or whatever you have.

As far as we can tell, the detainee has not been charged but is being held because he might have connexions with terrorism.

Paul has been required to accept fewer hours with the company he works for because he is no longer able to fly to the States. He may have to find a new position with another company as he cannot fulfil his contract.

One begs to question this ridiculous state of affairs. Why on earth is he on a no fly list if the person whom he shares the same name with is still detained and he is obviously not the same person? This person has a different age to the detainee and a different nationality, a different passport and has been flying into the US for nearly 15 years.

Another pilot I know in the same company was held for over three hours after accidently slicing his finger on some paper. The slice went through his fingerprints - a simple paper cut. He was told by US officials that it … wait, this is hillarious…" that it is illegal to accidently cut your finger prior to arrival in the United States" :loco:

He was strip searched, interrogated and was not allowed past immigration.

It’s true anecdotes like this that form some of the ideas that people of other countries come up with.

And what do you expect when you treat everybody else from the rest of the world like shit?
Paranoid and selfish.

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Well I spent an hour with immigration and customs flying through New Zealand where I wanted to stop all of 8 hours to meet a friend and have lunch down by the harbor in Auckland on my way to Bora Bora. The funny thing is that I had no luggage and they tested my books: Thucydides History of the Peloponnesian War and my South Pacific Guide Book for explosives. Wanna talk about searches. Why? I have stamps from the Middle East. I asked them surely if they had seen others who had traveled to the Middle East and then I got but why do you live in Taiwan if you are American? Why are you going to Tahiti? I said I am not I am going to Bora Bora to which I got asked why I was flying to Tahiti then to which I replied because you cannot buy an international ticket to Bora Bora. You have to fly through Tahiti just like I am flying through Auckland now to get through Tahiti. Well why are you flying through Auckland? Because I am flying New Zealand Air and they seem to have something to do with this country, er, beyond just the name. To which they asked, why I was flying New Zealand air to which I replied because that is the ticket my travel agent found and gosh wouldn’t you know it it is the shortest, fastest most direct route to many countries and islands in the South Pacific to which they asked why I was going to the South Pacific in the first place to which I replied because I felt like going and it was Chinese New Years to which they replied why are you traveling during chinese New Years to which I replied because it is the main period of vacation in Taiwan and I get the most days off to which they asked why that would apply to me since I am American not Taiwanese… it just went on and on and on so if you want to talk about congenitally stupid people working in immigration who no doubt live in trailer houses and have nasty assed attitudes to boot, I seriously challenge you to try a visit to either Australia or New Zealand these days to get that real “down-home” welcome starting with “You’re not from around here are you…”

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Well you are clearly a slick talker Mr. Smith, and congratulations on “beating the system” and succeeding with your little plan. But the more I think about it, the more it does seem like your trip was a little suspicious… What did you say you were reading? Something about “Thucydianuclear War in the South Pacific”? Doesn’t sound like an innocent “vacation” to me… :saywhat:

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Funny how CATO promotes some myths while debunking others. The Feb 21, 2005 issue of Newsweek lists 8 European countries with higher productivity than the US.

CATO people love the “pure fantasy” of their own ideology. They are totally disreputable (they set up fake debates on trade issues for example).

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I have without any problems whatsoever. I sailed through airport customs and they didn’t even search my yacht.

Might have something to do with you being American and your country imposing nasty immigration policies on New Zealanders. Long interviews just to get a stamp; hours waiting outside the US embassy for a probing, be-littling interview. Long queues at airport immigration in the states, fingerprints being taken, being treated like a criminal etc etc etc…you should be thankful it was only an hour. At least you didn’t lose your job…

And lets face it, you do look kind of strange.

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[quote=“s.b.”][quote]

In his fascinating recent book Cowboy Capitalism German journalist Olaf Gersemann looks at the myths which many Europeans hold dear about America and why the American capitalist system is such a bad thing compared to their European economic system. One might wonder how they can think these things given the obvious numerical indicators like… much lower productivity, but apparently deriding America based on pure fantasy is part of their cultural mindset.
[/quote]

Funny how CATO promotes some myths while debunking others. The Feb 21, 2005 issue of Newsweek lists 8 European countries with higher productivity than the US.

CATO people love the “pure fantasy” of their own ideology. They are totally disreputable (they set up fake debates on trade issues for example).[/quote]
Just to give CATO their due, here is a bit about them.
CATO INSTITUTE.
Their mission statement:
Cato’s Mission
The Cato Institute seeks to broaden the parameters of public policy debate to allow consideration of the traditional American principles of limited government, individual liberty, free markets and peace. Toward that goal, the Institute strives to achieve greater involvement of the intelligent, concerned lay public in questions of policy and the proper role of government.

And an important note:
How Cato Is Funded
In order to maintain an independent posture, the Cato Institute accepts no government funding or endowments. Contributions are received from foundations, corporations, and individuals. Other revenue is generated from the sale of publications. The Cato Institute is a nonprofit, tax-exempt educational foundation under Section 501©3 of the Internal Revenue Code. Cato’s 2000 revenues were just under $13 million, and it has approximately 90 full-time employees, 60 adjunct scholars, and 16 fellows, plus interns.

Just to give some needed perspective. :sunglasses:

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Hey Dangermouse:

We had this discussion before. The US can impose whatever policies it deems necessary to protect its citizens and soil. Nationals of other nations can choose to put up with being fingerprinted (oh my goodness all 30 seconds of it) or not. So many of the horror stories about traveling through US customs and immigration are guess what? unfounded stories spread either falsely or through gross exaggeration.

BUT on the way through to Bora Bora, I spent nearly NZ$200 on cabs, restaurants and gifts. I chose NOT to stop on my way back because of the immigration hassle and that means that in those short few hours New Zealand did NOT earn another say NZ$100 to NZ$150. While I am sure such a loss is hardly earth-shattering, it goes against the policies of many countries including Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Bangkok etc. which is to get transit passengers out and spending money in their economies.

I have been stopped other places before because of Middle Eastern stamps but have only been questioned for three to four minutes and fair enough, but an hour? That is a bit much. And for those who do get questioned by US authorities, the only time I can actually recall hearing anyone I know or have met complain was two Swiss who were going to be in the country longer than the visafree 90 days. For this, they had to show bank records and proof of job, but when I was a student in the UK and would be there for a year, I had to do the same. It is normal. But what is not normal is one hour questioning for an eight-hour visit when the person has no luggage, is meeting a friend during an obvious transit with an ongoing airline ticket to a third destination. In fact on NZ Air, one of the promotional messages before landing is about how the government encourages people to take day tours of the city or surrounding area so this cannot be a big surprise when such travelers choose to do so, right?

So the ultimate test of any visa or immigration policy is one based on statistics. Do Americans statistically enage in smuggling, overstay their visas or commit terrorist acts and if so what is the age, gender, etc. that would lead to such a “profile.”

Do Americans tend to overstay their visas in New Zealand or do New Zealanders tend to overstay their visas in America? Do Chinese tend to smuggle fruit and vegetables into the country or do Americans? All these things lead to profiles which for the most part work.

BUT (and I am fairly familiar with profiling) how in the name of God does someone with my type of profile (regardless of Middle Eastern travel which can very easily be accounted for by my job) get an hour worth of questions? It just does not make sense and it is counterproductive to the country’s stated objective which is to increase income from short-term travelers in transit.

In the meantime, I am sorry for the citizens of Mexico who face lengthy waits and questioning from US authorities but do they actually not understand why when 20 million of their fellow countrymen have immigrated to the US illegally. I feel sorry for the Nigerians who are checked for sufficient funds and drug smuggling but how many of their fellow countrymen actually specialize in and engage in this type of activity? I feel sorry for the pregnant Chinese or Taiwanese woman who is not given a visa to the US but considering the number of similar women who have traveled to the US solely to have their babies in public hospitals at the expense of US tax payers to get an automatic citizenship for their babies but what will you do?

Final question: American male age 40 with the job that I have, onward ticket, no luggage (checked through to final destination) but credit cards and sufficient funds questioned for an hour? Why? Just to get back at Americans for the indignities that some New Zealanders may have suffered or faced in America? And for those New Zealanders who did face such questioning, were they going to be in the country for more than three months? were they of the age or profile which US authorities have discovered tend to overstay their visas? See my point?

15

It is looking increasingly likely that within two or three years (when I have enough flying hours) I will be flying airlines, bringing businees and money to the United States should my rosters schedule me there (which they undoubtedly will, at some time).
Since I am doing your country a favour I expect to be treated well in return. At the moment, British (not Mexican, Cubans, Iraqis) pilots, businessmen and other professionals have to queue outside embassies so they can gain entry to the US, usually for hours and sometimes days on end.

You seem to play this off as not being a hassle to people. The US protecting its citizens from what? airline pilots? business people?

Unfounded stories - I know of at least 7 stories like the one I have previously given you. They are not exaggerated. If you move in the circles I move in directly associated with air travel, pilots and pilots unions then you will quickly find out that the US is quickly becoming one of the most inconvenient countries to visit. Getting into Fort Knox with a tooth pick would present less hassle.
Being detained for accidently cutting your finger on a flight to NY and then being told it’s illegal, interrorgated and detained - nice treatment.

Anyway we have covered this subject before in a fashion, as you say.

You say the misconceptions from Europeans are unfounded. Is it any wonder that these misconceptions arise when for the last 50 years or more you have repeatedly stood on other countries heads to get ahead - agressive business tactics, spieing, sanctions, not signing treaties against global warming, convenient wars, harsh immigration policies…the list goes on.

But I supose you are right. The US is only protecting its citizens (greedy) way of life

16

Well we always hear about the US don’t we but I and others have to go through many of the same procedures to work or study in Europe. Be fair here are you talking about work or long-term visas or just entry. Surely, there is a major difference between pilots and what should be expected of them especially in light of how 911 occurred? Besides, I read you bitching about how politically correct Britain is in another thread. Given that all those events occurred in your own country, where do you get off pretending to attribute such bureaucratic officiousness only to the USA?

Second, I hear people bitching all the time about the US and its Guantanamo Bay and flouting of the Geneva Conventions but did you know that the French can and do detain people for up to three year on suspicion of terrorism? Where’s the big beef about that? Are they tried? Are they sentenced? NO NO NO. This also occurs in other countries.

Like the big unilateral American moves that were discussed earlier. The Euro press was aflame with America’s pre-emptive action against Iraq but had nothing to say about the Treaty of Luxembourg signed June 2003 in which France, Germany and the UK committed themselves by treaty to taking pre-emptive action themselves.

My point is NOT that NZ is wrong to have such profiling and checks and I am not even seriously complaining about the experience because these things happen. I merely raised it to point out that while everyone bitches about the extensive procedures in the States, in fact, many of us go through this when we travel to other countries as well.

Now, why don’t you tell us about political correctness in the UK here so we can listen to how happy you are about the state of affairs in your own country? Whoops. Forgot that I might read the open forum once in a while did you?

17

No offense, db, but I’m not sure if you are entirely on the money here. You listed about ten things there. Some of them are fairly complex issues, and some of them depend very much your your definitions and point of view. Neverthess, it appears from your list that at least a couple of your ten “ridiculous things” might actually be true. So --with all due respect-- I think you should be more careful about judging people.
[/quote]

Yes, but thinking about it, I now realize that 10 items on the list was not enough. Do you know that Europeans actually think that religious zealots have seized control the US government and want to ban the teaching of evolution, criminalize abortion, and promote abstinence-only sex education? I just don’t know where the Europeans get these foolish misconceptions from.

cheers,
DB

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[quote=“Dog’s_Breakfast”][quote=“Hobbes”]No offense, db, but I’m not sure if you are entirely on the money here.
[/quote]

Yes, but thinking about it, I now realize that 10 items on the list was not enough. …

cheers,
DB[/quote]

heh! :laughing: I’ve got a lot more patience for these ones than I did for your last list. :wink:

[color=red]Hobbes slides a mug of beer down the bar to where DB is sitting[/color]

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[quote]
And an important note:
How Cato Is Funded
In order to maintain an independent posture, the Cato Institute accepts no government funding or endowments. Contributions are received from foundations, corporations, and individuals. Other revenue is generated from the sale of publications. The Cato Institute is a nonprofit, tax-exempt educational foundation under Section 501©3 of the Internal Revenue Code. Cato’s 2000 revenues were just under $13 million, and it has approximately 90 full-time employees, 60 adjunct scholars, and 16 fellows, plus interns.

Just to give some needed perspective. :sunglasses:[/quote]

thanks. I’m glad we’re talking about CATO’s economic motivations… here’s some more perspective on this pack of greedy ideologues.

Corporations Behind Respected Conservative Think Tank
by Norman Solomon

http://www.albionmonitor.net/9802a/ns-cato.html

enjoy
:homer:

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Yep. But the restrictions in place aren’t as restrictive and the treatment is often much better in other countries. People don’t usually get interrogated because they cut their finger, or get put on a no fly list because someone has the same name as someone who might have done something wrong.

Both. Seems the US can pick and choose.

Pilots have what is called a J1 visa. This is internationally recognised. Pilots with J1 visas have already been checked against numerous national and international intelligence sources. This means that the US has no reason not to accept a pilot with this kind of visa.

[quote]Besides, I read you bitching about how politically correct Britain is in another thread. Given that all those events occurred in your own country, where do you get off pretending to attribute such bureaucratic officiousness only to the USA?
[/quote]

I dont only attribute this to the USA, hence posts about my own country. Perhaps I would have no right if I didn’t remark upon my own countrys shortcomings, but I fully acknowledge them and even make them known. If the US does something that directly affects my country and subsequently me, now or in the future, then I have a right “to get off” at the USA.

Also, Fred, something for your consideration. I wasn’t born in the UK although I was born to British parents. I havn’t applied for citizenship for my country of origin and I doubt if I ever will, but I believe I could legally apply tomorrow. I spent six months in my birth country before going to the UK and I have never been back since. You never know, I might just have more right than you think.

(Hint: My father who was in the parachute regiment was training with your guys in the art of tree top parachuting at the time I was born. It was a long attachment - my mum was there too).

You know how I feel about the French, Fred.

I don’t really have anything against this, however it is hippocritical of the EU, as usual.

[quote]
My point is NOT that NZ is wrong to have such profiling and checks and I am not even seriously complaining about the experience because these things happen. I merely raised it to point out that while everyone bitches about the extensive procedures in the States, in fact, many of us go through this when we travel to other countries as well. [/quote]

Point taken. However, I bet it wont happen every time you go to NZ like it will happen every time someone from NZ goes to the States.

No problem Fred. More than happy to oblige.

Part of the reason why some people, like myself for example, feel they have to stand up against Americas “I can do no wrong” attitude and gloating:
Other countries usually admit their faults, or at least realise they have them. And most countries don’t gloat all the time trying to prove something they don’t have. This is why there are there are so few[posts attacking other countries because citizens from other countries dont usually post threads containing “France (The Great)” or Poland “The Best”
or Guam “The worlds only remaining superpower.”

Whats this thread? Yes. European misconceptions of America (the great!).
You need taking down a peg or two.