European Union falling apart ?


what politician’s not?


I was replying to your proposing we give Macron a chance . Those were your views ?


ok, so don’t give him a chance. let’s just f)#@ everything and just give morons such as the us president a fair chance. and f#$# democracy and its freedom of press and division of power.



If you would for a moment look at Policies and not your perception of characters, it is the Macron Policies that I disagree with . They are almost the same…with a few tweaks, as has been tried and is not working. Trump ( like him or not) is proposing radically different ideas ( like them or not) but you think he is a moron …so he must be wrong.Even though duly, democratically, elected , you are incapable of “giving him a chance” .
The difference between us , is that I may consider Macron and his ideas , if they were going to change things. There is , in Europe , far less freedom of the press if it criticises liberal values and it is shouted down as Racist or Right wing extreme. There are demonstrations now in Europe , which are not covered by the Press…these are not Extremists for the most part so your ideals seem to be a far bigger threat to democracy …Your Democracy is only good if it’s what you agree with ? The inability to listen to another viewpoint is contributing to the divisions. you are contradicting the very definition of Liberal ( broad-minded , tolerant , flexible,…)
I am happy to discuss and maybe be persuaded but my views are that the EU will fail, That’s all.


yes, because he still upholds democratic values and tries to change issues within that frame.

i don’t like him, no surprise there. but i’m giving him a chance. so far, i can’t see that any of those two have made anything better or worse as an immediate impact, from a subjective point of view. but we will see in the longterm.

i already told you, i am open to any new ideas, even trump’s.

no, there isn’t, even the public media critize merkel etc. that’s something you wouldn’t see in let’s say hungarian press, if a bunch of people protested against orban.

there are demonstrations for all kinds of bs in any major city in europe on any given day, should the press cover them all? if x thousands of people go to the streets in germany, the media WILL cover it. if you refer to some HoGeSa meetings and wonder why those are not covered by the press, well, sorry for you.

i already said, policies and border control especially are up to debate. but basic democratic values are not.
i have nothing against austrian’s new prime minister kurz, because i don’t think, he plans to undermine the freedom of press and judiciary radically. he’s going at the subject and that’s the immigration issue the eu has.


Yep the EU core values of human rights , free speech, independent press, independent judiciary, equality
, these are not up for grabs. They are part of the EU charters.
Hungary should leave before being pushed out if they don’t agree. They can fester on their own .


You make some fair points there . I think one issue is , for me anyway , that Democracy itself in the EU, may be in danger of being eroded and diluted by the institution itself . Many Countries are unhappy with some of the proposals being suggested as policy , but seem to be less able to realistically just argue in the EU parliament against them . With each new “ treaty “ comes less power to veto and getting huge concensus is hard . Appreciate your discourse though , Thankyou


I agree that Hungary seems not to want to be a part of it at the moment .On a more important issue , why are you awake so early ?Bowel problems ? :smirk:


Called sunlight Shiadoa.


Ahhh, maybe time for bed. I am sick at the moment. Had to sit next to Redwagon on a Plane the other day and he gave me Flu. I am just waiting for Rantanplan’s reply before bed…typing with one finger R?:smile:


the eu has many problems, but i’d rather someone rational as macron tries to solve them than someone like trump. because for me, the eu is still a symbol of freedom, freedom of movement, trade, press etc. i don’t want it to be crushed by a madman’s signature. i want it to be fixed and improved.

actually, the eu is so blocked because depends on (almost) unanimous voting. such as the un security council, with their veto powers. obviously each country, or lets say their government, follows their on interests. it’s clear that a unanimous vote is unlikely for almost every issue.

the easiest solution would be a majority vote. but that may lead to others unwanted problems too because the majority is not always the most rational indicator


I see the sentiment in that phrase but…anything other, would not be Democracy


no sentiment. just considering history.
or do you think the holocaust was justified just because hitler had a majority voting for him? yeah yeah, the old holocaust argument.

let’s bring something more up to date. do you think it’s fair that erdogan probably will win this election when one of his rival is rotting in prison, and the other competitors have almost no access to the media.

it’s easy to get a majority, once a population has been leveled(aka brainwashed). it’s also easy to say, every country gets the president it deserves. because it’s hard to tell, if a society has been forced to vote for one way or another or deeply believed it would be for the better of all. in any way, that’s why there are human rights and the geneva convetions etc. to protect the rights of all, even of those who don’t agree with the current government.


I’m not privy to FT (behind pay/member wall), but zerohedge summed it up quite well overnight.

As the FT reports, the rest of Europe’s “core”, including the Netherlands, Austria and Finland are among 12 governments questioning the need for any joint eurozone “fiscal capacity”, challenging a central tenet of French President Emmanuel Macron’s vision for the eurozone that he has successfully pressed Berlin to endorse.

Ironically, while their agreement supposedly forms part of a broader deal between Paris and Berlin on how to strengthen the currency bloc, the rest of Europe generally disagreed, which incidentally is also the reason why any attempt at “Federalizing” Europe is doomed to failure: Europeans tend to frown upon self-declared “master states” who tends to decide for everyone else, even if these states end up paying for much of the outlays (largely thanks to the presence of the EUR and the absence of the DEM).

And the punchline: the letter was written by the Dutch finance minister on behalf of Belgium, Luxembourg, Austria, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Ireland and Malta.

The simple math: 2 vs 12, and it is safe to say that the rest of the eurozone is not aligned with France and Germany either.

Ahh, such a big family dispute.
Still about 1+ week for Merkel to finalize a plan that would satisfy her Bavarian drinking coalition buddies.


all those countries clearly don’t seem to share the same values of equality, sociality, liberality and whatever, so they must leave the Eu now before they start putting Jews back in concentration camps.


It’s zerohedge not even worth clicking .


They are talking about fiscal treaties can’t ya even read the quotes?


Meanwhile back in the real world Brexit isnt going too swimmingly.

The point about transition is a joke as well. Transition would just give them time to switch their operations to mainland Europe. The UK needs to stay in one or both markets otherwise it’s manufacturing is toast.

BMW joins Airbus in Brexit warning -

‘It’s all the evil EUs fault we ejected ourselves from the worlds greatest single market and customs union’ say Brexit voters . David Cameron swigs back another champagne on the toasting circuit .

Boris Johnson whistles to himself and ruffles his hair looking Etonish.

'They don’t want some bog roll Brexit - soft, yielding and seemingly infinitely long.

‘They want this government to fulfil the mandate of the people and deliver a full British Brexit’ as he imagines himself working down the local caf with all the other newly unemployed.

Prime Minister May has ruled out the UK staying in the customs union. She mutters something about strong and stable under her breath as her aides replace the batteries .

Never thought British people were so easily led down a blind alley. Hard nosed pragmatism not dogmatism is what they were known for.

What will people in North Wales and Sunderland do for jobs after they voted to lose them?
Strawberry picking doesn’t pay too well.


This reads like the Democrats and supporters of Billary after losing 2016 election (1.5 years later).
Still hoping that the earth’s course can be reversed by Superman.


Lots of European are waiting for these jobs ,they don’t giVe a figs about UK leaving, they would say thanks UK more jobs!

Meanwhile John Neill, chief executive of Unipart, a car parts supplier that employees 6,000 people in Britain warned: 'The implications for the British economy are very, very severe and could result in busloads of jobs disappearing into Europe.

The Government insisted the negotiations with Brussels were making ‘good progress’ and it was confident that a ‘no-deal scenario’ would not arise.

But unions and opposition parties attacked the Government for the impact already being felt across industry from the lack of a deal.

Unite called on the Government to stop the ‘infighting’ and provide some certainty for British industry and millions of workers.

Prime Minister Theresa May has ruled out staying in the customs union. The UK is due to leave the EU on 29 March 2019.

I’m not sure how leaving the customs Union can be achieved without large scale job losses.

The answer : the UK will stay in the customs union one way or the other. They will call Chocolate Cocoa and it will be the same thing, just to save face.